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#469775 - 04/17/17 01:25 PM HSB
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
What's considered a minimum pond size and depth for HSB? How do they compare to LMB as the top predator in a small pond? Would they be apt to take a small fly (and smash your tackle)?

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#469784 - 04/17/17 03:35 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
RC51 Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 4200
Loc: Arkansas
Well I'll take a stab at this.

! have a 1 acre pond. I have HSB and LMB and they seem to fair well together. Keep in mind HSB like more open water tho so they don't really interfere to much with LMB as far as in your face if you will.

I believe my top predator is still my LMB but my Larger HSB do eat smaller BG. I have one I just caught yesterday on a 3 inch BG and it was 6.5 pounds. My smaller HSB are also doing fine they are in the 14 inch range now but doing great. Look great!

My pond is only Max 10 feet at full pool. So mine are living and thriving in 8 foot of water for the most part.

The cool thing about HSB is they don't spawn on you so if you put 12 in there your not gonna end up with 1200 one day! lol. Heck I think even the late great George has them in a 1/4 acre pond and had some NICE ones!!! They are a great bonus fish and a blast to catch.

I cant say I have ever caught one on a top water bait but I know guys that have! I catch most of mine on shiny rooster tails and small spinners, a bobber with a shiner. If you feed them you can catch them on fish food once in a while.

They can also stand some pretty warm weather/water it gets pretty darn hot here in Arkansas and I have not had any die from the heat that I know of, but I do have air in my pond keeping things nice and full of D.O.

Hope this helps give them a try you wont regret it.
I believe Ewest lives in Missouri and he has some real nice HSB. I'm sure he could fill you in some too.

RC
_________________________
The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!

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#469845 - 04/18/17 02:53 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
I might try a few if I can find a supplier. The two fish trucks that regularly come here don't provide them. A supplier I got fish from late last year does sometimes sell them, but he came here last year only because he had a big sale on the other side of me and would be passing near here anyhow. So I suppose there's a slim chance this year.

Thanks for the help.

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#469848 - 04/18/17 03:14 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
I've ordered 25 HSB and 5 lb of FHM. The truck will be here tomorrow. So, we'll see.

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#469854 - 04/18/17 04:29 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
catmandoo Offline
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Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 5649
Loc: Hampshire Co., WV
You will love them. If they go into the pond healthy, and if you don't over-stress them when you catch them in hot weather, they will grow into fantastic fun and delicious meals.

I have them in two of my ponds. I usually purchase 25 in the springtime in the 8-10 inch range. I put them in every second season. If you put some in now, you will be able to start harvesting this fall.

These days, fifteen go into my 0.7 acre pond and which is about 8-9 feet deep with an average of about a 4-5 foot average depth. The remaining 10 go into my 0.3 acre pond that has a maximum depth of 5-6 feet and has a steep V-shaped bottom that is flat enough on the bottom to seine with a 20-foot seine.

They take feed very readily. They grow fast. They co-exist extremely well with the other fish.

By fall mine are usually 18-22 inches. In my ponds they top out the second year at about 22 to 26 inches.

Good luck,
Ken
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#469858 - 04/18/17 07:26 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
The heat and the otters are my biggest concerns. The supplier thought I needed the FHM to keep the LMB off the HSB. But I think the otters got all the larger LMB. The few I've caught this year have been 10" or less, and I think he said the HSB would be 5 - 6". But the FHM won't hurt, as long as they're healthy and only FHM. The forecast is for 80 tomorrow - about the hotest day so far this year.

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#469862 - 04/18/17 08:37 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
catmandoo Offline
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Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 5649
Loc: Hampshire Co., WV
I wouldn't be too concerned about the temperature. Lots of our friends in Texas raise HSB. One late Pond Boss friend, George, kept a crate with an oxygen bottle with him when fishing. When he got an HSB he would give it straight oxygen when the weather was hot and the fish was stressed from bringing it into shore. He wouldn't set it free until it was fully refreshed.

The other thing is that HSB are hybrids from striped bass and white bass. Both are native of very hot regions of the US.

Otters?? I've been lucky. I know a lot of people who have had disastrous problems with them, especially fish farmer friends. No good answers there.

The FHM won't hurt anything. They might help the LMB if you don't have a lot of bluegill. But a good feeding program with quality fish food would probably be more effective, especially if you have a reasonable bluegill base in the pond. The bluegill and the HSB will both take feed very well.
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#469879 - 04/19/17 01:11 AM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
I don't have as many BG as I had the last 2 yr, but I have bigger ones, and I think I have plenty relative to the number of LMB. The pond has no vegetation other than FA (just starting to show up now). I had shiners last year, but haven't caught any this year. I planted 30 yellow perch last year, but haven't seen anything of them since. The pond also has GSF, BC, and WC, but not many of these. I've caught only one BC and no WC this year. It also has visiting ducks and geese now and then and a GBH. I've added scud and Daphnia, but without shelter, the scud probably had no chance.

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#469887 - 04/19/17 07:45 AM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1103
Loc: NE Missouri
I stocked 25 HSB in October of 2015. Ten of them were in the 6-8" range. I haven't seen one since. I've caught everything else I've stocked, including some larger GSH that have hit small jigs. I've heard throwing chicken liver out without a weight and letting it sink might do the trick. I'm hoping this spring to actually catch one. I don't think I've had an otter visit the pond. I still have a lot of fish hitting the food when the feeder goes off.
I think I've had a HSB on the line a few times, because the hit and fight are ferocious. But both times I've failed to land the fish, or even get a glimpse. I may throw a GSH on under a bobber out to the middle of the pond, and see if that works.
I hope they are still there. Ha
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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#469893 - 04/19/17 09:45 AM Re: HSB [Re: SetterGuy]
Matzilla Offline


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 132
Loc: Iowa
Try fishing for your HSB in the winter....they'll be the most aggressive winter predator in the pond for sure. Small jigs tipped with a 2" worm or swimming a jigging rap will get them.

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#471539 - 05/09/17 04:42 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
RC51 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 4200
Loc: Arkansas
Setterguy a bobber with a GSH or a small BG will do the trick. I caught one Saturday that was almost 6 pounds. And I am sure if you have had fish on that you did not even get a look at but was pulling line hard I am sure they were your HSB. Nothing pulls like the HSB fright train..... smile

RC
_________________________
The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!

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#471563 - 05/09/17 11:37 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1103
Loc: NE Missouri
Thanks for the info!

I'm going to try the chicken liver, and then I'll try a GSH. I've tried the jig with 2" of worm, the YP will hit it every time. I'll be up there next week, but I've got a bum ankle. Not sure if I'll fish or not. Just had the ankle rebuilt, and I don't want to mess it up..


Edited by SetterGuy (05/09/17 11:38 PM)
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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#471587 - 05/10/17 09:17 AM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2003
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
The hsb at my pond like the road runner jigs. I and change out the colors by simply changing the rubber type crappie trailers. Chunk and wind is my method lol
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

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#471590 - 05/10/17 09:44 AM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
RC51 Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 4200
Loc: Arkansas
Yes my smaller HSB like baby spinner baits and meps also. I actually caught one the other day on a Zoom Super Fluke.... I couldn't believe it.

RC
_________________________
The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!

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#471644 - 05/10/17 09:03 PM Re: HSB [Re: RC51]
esshup Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24001
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
I've caught YP in my pond on 4" soft plastic jerk baits, and I've caught HSB on the same lure......
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#471667 - 05/11/17 08:22 AM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
djstauder Offline
Hall of Fame

Junior Member

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 994
Loc: Mississippi
The most reliable way I've had of hooking (read, NOT catching) is a cricket on a small hook on the bottom fishing for BG. My ultralight rig and 4lb test line are no match for a 3-4 lb HSB and they break off quickly.
_________________________
1 ac pond LMB, BG, RES, CC

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#471683 - 05/11/17 11:09 AM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 18948
Loc: Miss.
Pond studies on HSB (without feeders)indicate from stomach contents that HSB eat a lot of bugs , especially when under 3 yrs old.
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#482367 - 11/08/17 12:28 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
Matzilla Offline


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 132
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Turtlemtn
I don't have as many BG as I had the last 2 yr, but I have bigger ones, and I think I have plenty relative to the number of LMB. The pond has no vegetation other than FA (just starting to show up now). I had shiners last year, but haven't caught any this year. I planted 30 yellow perch last year, but haven't seen anything of them since. The pond also has GSF, BC, and WC, but not many of these. I've caught only one BC and no WC this year. It also has visiting ducks and geese now and then and a GBH. I've added scud and Daphnia, but without shelter, the scud probably had no chance.


How did your HSB fair so far this year? I just stocked 175 8-12" HSB from Harrisons in Mo.

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#482370 - 11/08/17 02:13 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1576
Loc: West Michigan
Andy Coursey and Jim W and others, can you please get with the DNR folks in IOWA and bring them up to speed on the basics of small pond stocking? I read the info on the web pages of many of the states in the mid west and great lakes area and they have such bad advice on their web pages!!!

Today I was reading the Iowa DNR page devoted to educating the recreational pond owner on how to stock and it is amazing that they feel that the best combination is BG, LMB, and CC. Their justification for this does not help the new pond 'meister' avoid the pitfalls of CC. What about full disclosure?

Why no mention of Yellow perch? That is the easiest, tastiest, and most versatile panfish to stock after BG in my opinion. Why do they scare everyone away from White crappie and yellow bass? And push people away from HSB? Why???? HSB compete with what other species to the other species detriment?

See this:

--------------------
Pond Stocking
Years of experimentation have shown three fish species are best suited for Iowa ponds. Largemouth Bass and Bluegill are the primary species stocked in ponds, and must be stocked in combination to provide a good fishery. Bluegills are an excellent panfish and serve as prey for largemouth bass. Channel Catfish are also recommended for pond stocking due to their popularity with Iowa anglers and opportunity they provide for excellent fishing. All three species are available from many private hatcheries in Iowa.

Stocking and Managing Iowa Ponds

+ Pond Stocking | Bluegills
+ Pond Stocking | Largemouth Bass
+ Pond Stocking | Channel Catfish
+ Pond Stocking | Other Species
Although the largemouth bass, bluegill and channel catfish combination typically does well on its own, Fathead Minnows are sometimes stocked to provide initial prey for largemouth bass but they will not sustainable.

Walleye and Northern Pike can be stocked into ponds without harm, but they rarely reproduce in ponds and must be stocked periodically to maintain their populations. Walleye seldom grow large in ponds, but northern pike often do.

Black Crappie may be suitable in ponds larger than 5 acres, but should not be stocked until largemouth bass and bluegill populations are well established.

White Crappie and Yellow Bass are not well suited for ponds because they usually produce little fishing, seldom grow to acceptable size in ponds due to excessive reproduction and compete directly with fish. Hybrid Striped Bass should also be avoided due to their direct competition with other species.


Iowa DNR pond stocking page

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#482390 - 11/09/17 08:49 AM Re: HSB [Re: canyoncreek]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24001
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
I think a lot of the data that the DNR in the different states use is old, from the 40's and 50's. With the states cutting budgets, I'll bet private pond information is way down the priority list.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#482397 - 11/09/17 10:17 AM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
Acoursey Offline


Registered: 10/26/17
Posts: 19
Loc: West Lafayette, IN
Some states are certainly behind when it comes to recreational pond stocking. I have a few contacts in IA, so I will bring this up to them the next time I see them.

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#482411 - 11/09/17 02:56 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
Matzilla Offline


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 132
Loc: Iowa
Most of that Iowa DNR info is from the days when they would provide free fish to private pond owners - they discontinued the program years back. At that time LMB, BG and CC where the fish they had readily available. These fish were mostly harvested and distributed from the Fairport Fish Hatchery just minutes down the road from my house and pond.

All non public ponds in Iowa are now privately stocked. The IDNR has a group of "approved" fish supply sources who have "DNR fish packages" http://www.kloubecfisheries.com/iowa-dnr-pond-stocking-packages/
http://www.kloubecfisheries.com/pond-stocking-packages/


It's sad. My pond was stocked with a LMB, BG, CC initial stock (1960's) and maintenance stocking in the 70's and 80's. It soon turned into a stunted bullhead and bluegill pond after folks removed all the cc and lmb.

I believe if you contact IDNR regarding pond stocking you'll quickly be referred to the private sector.

That said I restocked my pond with help Bjornsen's of Cedar Rapids and fish were sourced from Harrisons of MO. I'm one of the few ponds in SE Iowa with a mixed bag of HSB, YP, RES, BG, LMB and WE. SMB locally sourced will join the mix next year.


Edited by Matzilla (11/09/17 02:57 PM)

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#482413 - 11/09/17 05:08 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1576
Loc: West Michigan
Matzilla,
Don't feel too badly, your situation is matched in many other states. I was sad to find out that in MI it is same song, different verse. Their main biologist who handled questions about stocking only could recite that I needed BG, LMB and CC. He proposed stocking numbers that would have been disastrous for my tiny pond. Without the help of the internet and the PB forum it would have been a for sure nuke the pond and start over a few years later.

There are tons of private ponds in all states but notably so in the great lakes states. I wouldn't say it is critical that the states be in the business of stocking private ponds, but since they are heavily regulating and policing the process, people naturally turn to their web pages for advice both on how to do it correctly and how to avoid a bad plan or an illegal stocking plan.

I understand budget cuts, but having 'biologists' on staff who are not keeping current with the stuff that is commonly agreed upon and discussed here and instead are stuck in the knowledge base of the '60s and '70s is not acceptable.

What if your mechanic could only work on cars prior to 1985 or your surgeon sterilized his tools by dropping them in a coffee can half full of whiskey?

I know budgets are tight, but I'm sure they have secretaries and administrative assistants at the DNRs, at least keep an accurate list of approved fish farms and what fish they have.


But back to the topic at hand TurtleMtn, how are your 25 HSB? how did they do this summer and fall? Are they taking pellets? Have you caught one on a fly yet?


Edited by canyoncreek (11/09/17 05:09 PM)

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#482418 - 11/09/17 08:06 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
Bill Cody Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 11987
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Do not verbally bash the state DNR biologists too hastily. Their recommendations are antiquated but relatively sound for the general use pond owner. These suggestions are based on lots of good early fishery research. The stocking combination of BG,LMB, optional CC can provide very good angling experiences for a long time period. Quality of the fishery from all stocking combinations depends highly on management methods which becomes more important as the pond becomes smaller.

Using new species for stocking combinations are still in the testing phases. And remember, correct management including harvest of those fish is key to how well the fishery remains high quality for an extended period of time (20+ years). Education of the pond owner about fish management is usually the weak link the the chain of growing pond fish.


Edited by Bill Cody (11/10/17 12:02 PM)
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#482421 - 11/09/17 08:50 PM Re: HSB [Re: Turtlemtn]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1576
Loc: West Michigan
Your advice is well taken. I would add to my recommendations then that the DNR pages in addition to pond stocking information also include information on the importance of fish management and fish harvest.

I'm curious if anyone on the PB forum is a recent graduate (say 2010 to present) of a fisheries biology or aquaculture type program? Is the education changing to keep 'up with the times'? I would think the new grads would have stumbled across this forum in their research and studies and would have plenty of material for classroom discussion with their profs. Would make for a great series for Bob L to identify a few current undergraduate or masters students and have them write a series of articles in the PB magazine about the current education experience. 'A day in the life of a fisheries student'. Do they do on the job apprenticeships? Do they do outdoor pond management or is the educational push all focused towards new trends in aquaculture management?

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