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Moderators, Can we make this a "sticky" thread since it is referenced so frequently???
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Joined: Jul 2014
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Joined: Jul 2014
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Thanks Rainman for reviving this thread. It took me several days to read and try and absorb this info. I am filling a 1 acre pond that will be 20-25 ft deep. I just received a good storm that added 2 ft to an existing 4 ft, so now I'm estimating 6-7ft of depth. I have FHM in already but my visibility is maybe 1-2 inches. My kids want to swim in it on Labor day. If I do an Alum treatment, am I wasting my money? Does it have any residual effects? I feel like I am getting mixed messages on that one. Can I just wing it and spray it out with lime according to recommended calcs or do I need to do the jar test? Patience is not my strong suit, but this pond thing requires almost as much as my kids!
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Capt, only you can decide if the money is wasted or not. I strongly suggest adding the hydrated lime with the alum for 2 reasons here.
First, your kids want to swim and the alum alone will make the water very acidic. Not dangerously acidic, but enough that it will make their eyes burn when the water gets in them.
Second, the only thing that can cause "residual" issues is a pH below 5.4 that will allow the aluminum to dissolve into the water and be absorbed by swimmers/fish...but that is so acidic the kids won't want to swim in the pond!
If you have a lot of open, exposed clay, adding alum may only last till the next rain event.
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Joined: Jul 2014
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Joined: Jul 2014
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Rainman, I will be adding the lime along with it. I am having trouble finding Alum here in AZ. Any good contacts? As far as residual affects, will the alum help settle the clay after the kids go and play in it for the weekend. Any Idea on what I should expect to pay for Alum by the pound? Does it work to spray in 100 lbs., wait for results and repeat? or am I better off doing calculations and spraying all in on one application?
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Look at some large chemical suppliers in some of the AZ Metro areas or contact Kelly Duffie here on PB.
There will be rapid re-settling of clay until the water becomes too diluted or more clay enters the water, as a "residual effect".
Yes, spray what is called for to clear the pond entirely the first time.
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Joined: Jul 2014
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Joined: Jul 2014
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Is $.62 a lb a good price for Alum?
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill
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I'd say that is a decent price. Think I paid $0.45-.50/lb a few years ago.
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Wow. amazing pond, beautiful fish too. It's got me inspired to finish building a pond down by our creek. I've got a depression dug in sand and gravel to the grade of the water, I'm thinking of going down another six feet letting the water flow underground. So much to learn
Going sustainable.. how's that working for ya?
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Joined: Feb 2017
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Alright, the equations have confused my tired brain, so please let me know about how much alum and aluminum sulfate should be added in a one acre lake with average depth of about5 feet?
Apparently x amounts of alum and 1/2x of aluminum sulfate is added to xx gallons of water making slurry and sprayed on the surface???
I have a 20 gallon sprayer and can dispense from my pontoon boat.
I am ready to use. Please advise..
Thanks, Bill
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Alright, the equations have confused my tired brain, so please let me know about how much alum and aluminum sulfate should be added in a one acre lake with average depth of about5 feet?
Apparently x amounts of alum and 1/2x of aluminum sulfate is added to xx gallons of water making slurry and sprayed on the surface???
I have a 20 gallon sprayer and can dispense from my pontoon boat.
I am ready to use. Please advise.. You will need a much larger sprayer. When Rainman and I treated a clients pond last year we used a 275 gallon tote that had water continually pumped into and out of it. We first sprayed the hydrated lime into the pond, then the aluminum sulfate. It took us about 4-5 hours to treat the whole 7/8 acre pond using that method. He stayed on the bank mixing and pumping, I was in a boat with the hose spraying the pond. It was non-stop the whole time.
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Alright, the equations have confused my tired brain, so please let me know about how much alum and aluminum sulfate should be added in a one acre lake with average depth of about5 feet?
Apparently x amounts of alum and 1/2x of aluminum sulfate is added to xx gallons of water making slurry and sprayed on the surface???
I have a 20 gallon sprayer and can dispense from my pontoon boat.
I am ready to use. Please advise.. Bill, Alum is Aluminum Sulfate....and Calcium Hydroxide is Hydrated Lime (do NOT confuse Hydrated Lime with "Ag Lime" (Calcium Carbonate, Calcite, Dolomite). For every 100 pounds of Alum needed, use 50 pounds of Hydrated Lime. I would suggest 1000 pounds of Alum (Aluminum Sulfate) and 500 pounds of Hydrated Lime (Calcium Hydroxide) As for mixing, hydrated lime can be slowly poured, dry, into the prop wash, if using a motor on the boat, or about 3 pounds Hydrated Lime per gallon of water, BEWARE wet, Hydrated Lime is highly caustic and will dissolve skin, especially in small cuts and scrapes!!!
Aluminum Sulfate will become a slurry and needs to be mixed at about a 1 pound per gallon mixture. Given the long length of time it will take (12-15 hours) to apply the mixtures, I would strongly suggest spraying 100# of Alum, followed by 50# of Hydrated Lime, alternating back and forth....Do NOT mix the Hydrated Lime and Alum at the same time in the tank, or it quickly turns to a paste!!
Last edited by Rainman; 03/16/17 12:51 AM.
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I haven't thought about aluminum sulfate in over 30 years. I remember them using it down at the water plant. They used AS and something called soda ash
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Farm, Soda ash is also known as washing soda (Sodium Carbonate) which is a close relative of baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate). If you have been around long enough, you might remember using washing soda as a water softener for washing clothes. I don't know if it would have a place in pond maintenance, but it could be used to raise the PH levels.
Fish on!, Noel
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If there are no fish in the pond, do you need the hydrated lime or can you just apply the Alum and wait for the PH to come back up and stabilize before stocking? Another question, if you have extremely high alkalinity already, is that enough to buffer the Alum without much PH change?
Last edited by Bill D.; 03/16/17 08:51 AM.
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
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Keep in mind that the more alum that is applied per acre foot of water the more the need for buffering of lime or natural lime carbonates. I have applied alum in ponds with fish and Higher alkalinity and hardness (100-250ppm, mg/L) and found it will buffer most suggested applications of alum (100-400lbs/ac) without the need for lime addition. Below 90mg/L alkalinity, I suggest you monitor the pH when adding alum.
As already noted: after - during alum application, there is a chemical reaction that impacts the pH (acidity) of the water. The reaction produces small amounts of sulfuric acid which can decrease pH significantly in some lower alkalinity buffered waters to levels harmful to aquatic life. You can treat with a suggested or minimal amount of alum and wait a day or two to determine if more alum is needed to achieve water clarity 18"-2ft. Therefore, alkalinity and pH should be tested prior to application. Alkalinity should exceed 100 mg/l and pH should be greater than 7.0.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/16/17 10:54 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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If there are no fish in the pond, do you need the hydrated lime or can you just apply the Alum and wait for the PH to come back up and stabilize before stocking? Another question, if you have extremely high alkalinity already, is that enough to buffer the Alum without much PH change? If there are no fish, Hydrated lime is less expensive, adds calcium, and will sterilize and turn the pond gin clear. It will make the pH go sky high at first, but it returns to safe levels, or normal in a couple weeks.
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Keep in mind that the more alum that is applied per acre foot of water the more the need for buffering of lime or natural lime carbonates. I have applied alum in ponds with fish and Higher alkalinity and hardness (100-250ppm, mg/L) and found it will buffer most suggested applications of alum (100-400lbs/ac) without the need for lime addition. Below 90mg/L alkalinity, I suggest you monitor the pH when adding alum.
As already noted: after - during alum application, there is a chemical reaction that impacts the pH (acidity) of the water. The reaction produces small amounts of sulfuric acid which can decrease pH significantly in some lower alkalinity buffered waters to levels harmful to aquatic life. You can treat with a suggested or minimal amount of alum and wait a day or two to determine if more alum is needed to achieve water clarity 18"-2ft. Therefore, alkalinity and pH should be tested prior to application. Alkalinity should exceed 100 mg/l and pH should be greater than 7.0. I wouldn't want to suggest trying to "reduce" turbidity if caused by colloidal clay. Alum doesn't dissolve into water unless the pH is 5.4 or lower, and that pH is not good. Above 5.4, Alum sinks to the bottom, and adding more will need to be at a higher application rate than the original application...it isn't a cumulative effect. i.e. If a 1000# rate is required to completely flocculate the colloidal clay, but only 600# is applied on day one... You will likely need 1000# still on day 2's application, for a total of 1600# instead of the original 1000 that would have been needed. Be sure to ensure you have high quality, guaranteed analysis Hydrated Lime, applied at 40-50% of what alum is applied or you may do what just happened to me...Smoke a pond from a pH drop and be replacing a pond full of fish...
Last edited by Rainman; 03/18/17 03:39 AM.
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I haven't thought about aluminum sulfate in over 30 years. I remember them using it down at the water plant. They used AS and something called soda ash Many municipalities still use dry Aluminum Sulfate and Soda ash to clarify municipal water supplies....The basic soda ash helps offset the acidic effect of Alum on the water.
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This forum is terrific! I have a 4 to 5 year old pond we had built that has never been anything but muddy brown. I did an Alum test last night and the difference was amazing. Now I am trying to find a source to purchase bulk Alum and Hydrated Lime. I called the local CoOp but they didn't carry either. Can anybody help me track down a source in the central Iowa area (near Des Moines)?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
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If you drop into a pool supply place and ask where they get their bulk chemical they may be able to hook you up with product or even the supplier.
I do think even if you do everything correct you need to watch the EC of the pond water. If high to begin with then adding alum and hydrated lime the EC could go much higher than the fish or life can handle. If I remember correct and EC of 16 is ok but get to 24 and things die.
EC is electrical conductivity of water. It measures dissolved salts.
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This forum is terrific! I have a 4 to 5 year old pond we had built that has never been anything but muddy brown. I did an Alum test last night and the difference was amazing. Now I am trying to find a source to purchase bulk Alum and Hydrated Lime. I called the local CoOp but they didn't carry either. Can anybody help me track down a source in the central Iowa area (near Des Moines)?
Any help is greatly appreciated! Talk to your local Helena Chemical dealer. If you can't find one, PM me and I can find a phone number for you to call if you tell me the nearest large town to you.
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Scott, unfortunately, not many Helena outlets carry Alum. Our Buddy Kelly does in the Helena outlets he deals with, but my local Helena won't even order it, and it is manufactured only 15 miles away.
Iowa Pond, message me back and I can have it delivered to your door, depending on water volume, or you or pick up in Des Moines.
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Rex, I was thinking of the possibility of having Kelly have it delivered to his local Helena distributor.
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Is it OK to use liquid form an how much should I use per acre
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Moderated by Bill Cody, Bruce Condello, catmandoo, Chris Steelman, Dave Davidson1, esshup, ewest, FireIsHot, Omaha, Sunil, teehjaeh57
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