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Guys and gals, I've been going 'round and 'round with the State on getting set up to stock fish in Michigan, and exactly what fish can and cannot be stocked in Michigan.

First I was told that if the fish was not on the restricted species list, it was OK.

Then I was told that stocking Tilapia was NOT OK in Michigan ponds.

I've spent close to 40 hours so far on the phone the last few weeks and countless more hours sending out e-mails.

Things that I've learned:

The left hand definitely does NOT know what the right hand is doing. I even went so far as to call the DNR and ask them this:
"If I was transporting live fish in Michigan to stock in ponds, and they had passed all the health tests, what tickets could be written to me for hauling the fish." The answer? None. No tickets would be issued if the fish are not on the prohibited list, if you had a receipt showing where the fish originated and they passed the health tests.

I know that ponds in Mi. that have permanent inflow or outflow need to have a stocking permit issued by the state, that is applied for by the pond owner.

My biggest questions are to the people in Michigan who have stocked Tilapia in their ponds.
1) Does your pond have a permanent inflow or outflow? If so, who signed off on the stocking permit?
2) If you stocked Tilapia in your pond, were the Tilapia sourced within the state or out of state? If out of the state, what state did they come from?

I was told today that Tilapia can't be stocked because they will survive the winter. "There is a case in Illinois where Tilapia survived the winter in an Illinois waterway. That is why we don't allow them to be stocked." I asked for specific information on that case, when, where and what exact species of Tilapia survived.

Thanks.


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Thanks.

That still doesn't show any proof that they overwinter. I've had Tilapia that were stocked in the late April as 6"-9" fish grow to 18" and almost 5 pounds by late September.


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Originally Posted By: esshup


Thanks.

That still doesn't show any proof that they overwinter. I've had Tilapia that were stocked in the late April as 6"-9" fish grow to 18" and almost 5 pounds by late September.


I would absolutely agree with you. I'm sure it's proof enough though for government types.


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I'm going to guess that you're not going too get much help on this, publicly, in this post. Not too many people want to go on record with something that most of us can't figure out is legal or not. Then we stand the risk of having our ponds emptied, fines paid, blah blah blah.

I'm not saying that any of that would happen, just commenting on human nature.

Last edited by timshufflin; 03/31/17 10:31 AM.

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I might move to a state that was more pond friendly. wink

Sorry Scott, no help from me.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I might move to a state that was more pond friendly. wink

Sorry Scott, no help from me.


The thought has crossed my mind. We'll have to see how it goes. With the WOA getting kiboshed it makes your point germane. It's absolutely great to be able to shop around States that have to compete. GREAT POINT!

I knew, some day, there would be something we could agree on!


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Yes, on this I totally agree. A state isn't pond friendly, move. When all the states agree to be pond unfriendly. Move. Visa's at the ready, eh?

Scott, are you unable to get anything in writing, regarding the discrepancy on info?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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That Chicago Suntimes article as with many newspaper articles likely contains half truths. Newspaper authors, IMO on a good day, only know about half of what they are writing about.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/31/17 08:29 PM.

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Well, it seems all my hours on the phone are finally paying off. I have a few more contacts to follow up with on Monday, but what I found out is that while Tilapia are not on the restricted list, neither are they on the Approved list.

So, that means that they most likely will NOT be approved for stocking in a pond that has a permanent inflow or outflow, called "waters of the state", but as long as the Bluegill pass the health exams, then they would be O.K.

In private ponds where there is no permanent water inflow or outflow device (i.e. outflow pipe, culvert, etc.) Tilapia are OK to stock.

In ponds that are considered "waters of the state" the pond owner has to apply for a fish stocking permit, they need health certs to send in, etc., etc. More hoops to jump through than here in Indiana, but still doable for fish that are on the approved list.

Still would like to hear from people in Michigan that have stocked their ponds and whether they were considered "waters of the state", what was the determining factor, and how hard/time consuming the process was if they DID need a stocking permit.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion about government agencies, how good or how bad they are, or what they "should" do, or the whole thread will be deleted, or I will do some serious editing of posts.


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Originally Posted By: sprkplug

Scott, are you unable to get anything in writing, regarding the discrepancy on info?


I was unable to talk to anyone in the past two weeks that actually knew anything about stocking ponds period. One person sent me to another person who STILL hasn't returned my voice mail.

An e-mail was sent to 3 people on the MDNR website that were listed as having something to do with the pond stocking permit, one replied, one e-mail addy was incorrect (was rejected) and one has not replied yet. The one that DID reply, also forwarded my e-mail to a person who sounded like they knew what they were talking about, and they gave me 2 more contacts which I will follow up with on Monday.

It seems there are 3 lists. One of approved fish, one of NOT approved fish and a 3rd that has fish that are in limbo, given approval or not, on a case by case basis. Hopefully this weekend I will have time to search for the approved and "limbo" lists.

From talking to that person, it seems that if the pond is considered to be "waters of the state" there is about an hour of paperwork on my end that I have to do, send it to the potential purchaser, then they have to fill out the stocking permit form and send it in. Once it is approved, they have to send me a copy of it so I can legally deliver the fish. The caveat is if I hold the fish here in Indiana for any length of time, even in a holding tank with well water, I have to get the fish health certified, AND I HAVE TO HAVE PASSING CERTS FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS......

So, realistically if I want to hold any fish here, or raise them here and then deliver them to Michigan I have to spend approximately $1,800.00 per fish species over the next 3 years before I can legally deliver any fish that are held here to Michigan ponds. If I pick up the fish from my supplier and deliver them without holding them here for any length of time, I am o.k. using the fish suppliers health certs.


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Great job eeshup. I had always wondered what in the heck the State of Michigan meant when a species was not on the prohibited list yet was on the approved list, or something like that. I can' remember exactly how they had the lists termed.


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I'm a little vague on the permanent water flow thing. A culvert is the deciding factor? Since most ponds have culverts or pipes that discharge water, do they check to see where the discharge ends up? Water isn't static, and moves in and out of a pond whether it be privately-owned or not.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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The Tilapia pictured in the article is a Blue/Mozambique hybrid. Best it can survive to is 52 degrees. There are lots of warm water discharge areas that the fish could theoretically survive year round in. There will still be no danger of overpopulation or late season reproduction.



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An except from Michigan...

The following are excerpts from American Law Reports, Annotated, 15 ALR (2d) 754, in
which applicability of state fishing license laws or other public regulations to fishing in
private lakes or ponds is discussed.
Generally speaking, private lakes or ponds are not subject to the regulatory
power of the state wherein they are situated. Such a naked proposition,
however, is hardly adequate to indicate exactly what lakes or ponds are
included or not in the statutes designed to regulate the time and manner of
fishing in waters within the state. The term 'private waters' for the purpose
of application of the statutes presents the main problem to be considered.
19
The courts generally recognize that a lake or pond is not private so as to be
exempt from regulation merely because the soil underneath the water is
privately-owned. The main test appears to be whether the lake or pond
involved is connected, either continuously or at intervals with other bodies
of water, so as to permit fish to move to and from the two places, or
whether the lake or pond is entirely isolated. Some statutes expressly
provide that private waters are to be exempt from regulation, thus
establishing by legislative fiat a result reached by the courts by construction
of statutes not expressing such an exemption. But specifically exempt or
not, it must be determined in each special instance whether the physical
attributes of the lake or pond are such as to be deemed 'private' and thus
beyond the scope of regulation.
In accordance with the above discussion, the view has been generally taken by most
jurisdictions that fishing statutes do not apply to lakes or ponds privately owned and not
connected with any stream or other waters of the state, and this is so even though the
particular statute involved does not specifically exempt private lakes or ponds. In People
v Conrad, supra, a conviction for violating the fish law was reversed, and a statute
making it unlawful to take fish by certain means in any inland lake in the state was held
inapplicable to a private lake having no inlet or outlet with other waters.
The Court stated: "If it were connected with other lakes and streams, so that fish might
pass in and out of it, others than the owners would then have an interest in protection of
the fish in the lake." On the other hand, where a lake or pond, although privately owned,
is connected with other waters, either at all times of the year or at substantially regular
intervals, most courts, including Michigan courts, have maintained that the public has an
interest in the fish therein and that state statutes regulating the time and manner of
fishing should apply to such lake or pond. People v Horling, 137 Mich. 406; 100 NW 691
(1904) (holding that the owner of a private lake containing fish which migrate to and from
it at different periods of the year may not take fish therefrom contrary to statute); People
v Lewis, 227 Mich. 343; 198 NW 957 (1924)1
; People v Bridges 142 Ill 30; 31 NE 115
(1982); People v Doxtater, 27 NYS 481, Aff'd 147 NY 723 (1894).
Pertinent Attorney General Opinions:
Where a private lake and either its inlet or outlet is navigable in fact, the public could not
be excluded from fishing thereon; however, if the waters were non-navigable, the public
could be excluded, and in both circumstances a riparian owner is bound by the fishing
laws. OAG, 1931-1932, p. 295 (August 19,1931)
The general fishing laws of this state would govern fishing in a lake entirely enclosed by
private lands, and which has neither inlet nor outlet connected with other bodies of public
waters, where the public is permitted access via a boat livery or with permission of one
or more of the riparian owners. OAG, 1959-1960, No 2553, p. 152 (August 5, 1959)
As indicated, whether a lake comes within the purview of the statute regulating fishing
depends on whether the lake is connected with other waters so that fish can migrate to
and from the lake for any length of time during any season of the year.


Pages 13-19 seem most relevant.... http://michiganlakes.msue.msu.edu/uploads/files/FAQ%20Page/MI%20Water%20Laws.pdf



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WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After many more hours on the phone and countless more e-mails, I have an answer (finally).

I need to have a bait dealers license. (paperwork and $$ is submitted).

IF the pond is truly private, meaning no inflow or outflow, public fishing has never been permitted on the pond, OR the State has never stocked the pond, then stocking a pond is permitted without any other paperwork. I should have disease testing reports for the past 2 years to give to the pond owner, but there isn't any paperwork to fill out and send in to the State. No pre-importation permit is required. Per Stephen Hussey, MDARD.

This applies to fish that are not on the restricted or prohibited list.

IF the pond meets even one of the criteria listed above, then the pond needs to have a completed and approved public water stocking permit at the address when the fish are stocked, and the fish supplier is supposed to have a copy of it, along with the property owner. private stocking of public waters permit For that, you have to contact Gary Whelan at Mi DNR.


Last edited by esshup; 04/18/17 02:02 PM.

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Gotta love government red tape! BM61.


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esshup, thanks so much for your time effort and dogged determination!

So, do I have this correct? The take home message is that you need a bait dealer's license. Then you need to identify private ponds vs non-private ponds.

Private pond owners then by definition do not have state jurisdiction over what is in their pond except for the restricted fish on the restricted list.

If they purchase from you or another fish farm or hauler then it would help if you can show disease testing reports to protect you and the pondowner but is not something State can enforce. No permit is required by the pondowner.

Gary Whelan emailed me similar info, although at that time I wasn't asking as a fish hauler, but as a pond owner who felt that the rules should not apply to my non-public pond. He agreed, state could not require me to get a permit for stocking.

He was good with tilapia, he didn't care how I sourced it although common sense said that I should find a disease free and reputable source.

I don't understand why they feel tilapia will survive but I see the articles above and understand that some folks choose to find data that supports their pre-conceived notions.

So, now that we have that out of the way, the next project for me is to find a way to get some HSB in my pond as the apex predator. I know there has been interest from other MI pond owners in having HSB and I know there are some ponds that do have them (pond owners with private ponds who live closer to OH, IN have picked up their own)

I don't know how they will overwinter but lakes in SW MI have HSB in them that seem to overwinter fine.

The race is on for the MI fish hauling market!!

What other species might we be interested in? pellet trained SMB?

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No inflow or outflow....

What about spillway and spill pipes that discharge during high water events? How particular are they going to be? The info Rex posted used the wording "at intervals"....that makes me nervous.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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CC, you are correct. As long as the pond is truly private, AND the fish are not on the restricted or prohibited list, the gloves are off. Now, they are in the process of re-writing the laws and regulations and things might change in 6 months or a year, so things might change. I DO have a supplier for feed trained SMB who is already in Michigan. grin

Tony, even "at times" is good enough for Michigan to consider a pond as "private waters of the state", i.e., not truly a "private pond" and ALL of those ponds (Private waters of the state) need to have a stocking permit. If the pond has an overflow pipe, spillway, etc. even if it hasn't been used in years, it is still considered to be "public" and it needs to have a stocking permit. I need to have a copy of that stocking permit in the truck before leaving Indiana.

Also, a pond is considered "Private waters of the State" if it has an inflow pipe, culvert or stream entering the pond, even a seasonal one.

This is why many fish suppliers will not come to Michigan to stock ponds - too many hoops to jump through.

The license I have applied for expires in September, so I need to re-apply for any fish stocking in October..... A PITA for sure.


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CC, are the HSB on the restricted/prohibited list?


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No HSB are not on the restricted list. They were always in that gray area because they weren't forbidden but like tilapia, they weren't considered very often by people looking for a stocking program. Stocking packages had minnows, crayfish, BG, HBG LMB, and CC on them so that seems to be what the MI DNR went by.

I went round and round like you did with the DNR and ended up emailing and talking on the phone to Gary W. He had to go up his superiors chain, finally coming back to me after several months with the conclusion (which he did put in writing) that my pond is not under their jurisdiction and that since HSB are not on the restricted list they can't forbid it. He gloated a little in writing something on the order of 'good luck finding someone who will haul them in to MI' though. I think he realizes they have set the bar way high and the costs way high to do the necessary fish testing, paperwork, licenses etc.

My choice is to drive to OH, IN, IL etc or maybe someday one entrepreneurial fish truck driver will jump the hoops and start bringing tilapia, bass, HSB, etc into MI.

I'm not stuck on the HSB but I thought they would be an ideal apex predator for my small pond (put/take, non-reproducing, etc)

My goal was a HSB, YP, GSH pond with a few RES, LES with limited spawning as my bonus fish for fun.

What I see as a problem for you is that when you identify a potential customer in MI you almost need a drone fly over and high resolution footage of every inch of their pond to be sent to you ahead of time to be sure there is no culvert, stream, local puddle etc to help decide if a stocking permit is needed. That permit has to be in hand before you arrive so how in the world would one handle that?

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The permit in hand quandry can be easily resolved. Although not in a quick manner. The pond owner has to:

1) Have a site visit by the company stocking the fish prior to ordering the fish for stocking.
2) Have a letter from the authorities in Mi stating that his pond is truly a private pond and does not require a stocking permit.
3) Have a stocking permit in hand prior to ordering the fish, AND e-mail a copy of the stocking permit to the company that is stocking the fish.

Yes, the fish sold in Michigan will cost more due to the time and expense involved by the stocking company to legally stock the fish in the pond. Personally? If the order is large enough, then the fish cost shouldn't be very much more than the fish cost for the fish sold in Indiana. I could see having a say $500 minimum order plus possibly some mileage fee or a minimum order plus Michigan only fish price list.

There are always ways to work around costs.

Like purchasing a silencer. There are companies that have done the legwork and you can buy a blank trust form to set up a trust. Once you do that, then you can buy a silencer from anyone, spend the #200 for the tax stamp, wait until the Feds give the OK then pick it up at your local Class 3 dealer.

I could set up a "here's what you have to do to stock fish in a Michigan pond" tutorial in the on-line store for purchase, and the pond owner can use that paperwork to send to the state, and get the approval or not. Then they can buy from whomever is licensed in the state of Michigan to sell fish.

The only sticky point is that they have to have fish health certs from the supplier, which the supplier may or may not give them without a paid order in hand.


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Thanks for the update. On your line item #2 above, I'm not sure the MI authorities would be willing to come out to everyone's pond and then decide if there are any outflow or inlets. Trust me, I'd LOVE it if they did because then we aren't on the hook if they come out later and decide that we thought it was private and they decided it was not.

Do you know that they are willing to do so? I would think they are so overworked with the load they have that they would refuse to do that. I know just getting a return email or return phone call can take months.

Is it possible to request someone come out from the MI DNR and 'certify' your pond?

The fish health certs are only for public ponds right? THey are not required for my pond?

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Correct on all counts. I will be making more phone calls tomorrow in regards to how a pond is determined to be private or public. I don't know if they physically make a site visit or do it from Satellite.

That's my thought too, if you get a piece of paper from them saying it's private, then keep it for your records.


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Not quite sure how to do things in the state of Michigan, but in California, private pond is defined as detaching waterbody (from the waters of the U.S.), on privately owned property, with no inherent discharge of the privately owned waterbody during annual rainfall, and does not locate on property that considered as easement, subjected under jurisdiction of municipality.

Good job in collecting information so far. Just like California, you can grow tilapia in isolated pond/lake, but the waterbody must not be drained to, spill out of, or connected hydrologically to any water of the state or U.S.. This includes and not limited to streams, rivers, lakes, ocean, washes, riparian habitats, deltas, and even basins designed as infiltration and/or sedimentary retention.


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Leo, pretty much the same in Michigan. If the pond has a permanent inflow or outflow, even if the outflow goes across a pasture to a culvert, they will not allow stocking of Tilapia.

With that said, I FINALLY received my license today in the mail, so I can start applying for pre-importation permits to stock fish in Michigan. It was a LONG road!!!!


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Awesome news! Time to spread some wholesome goodness all over MI.


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Great news and CONGRATULATIONS!!
So what does this mean? You have to get VHS testing done or you have to have copies of test results from other fish farms? Do they even test tilapia?

What do you plan to truck into MI?

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Thanks and yes. If I bring a fish from another hatchery, I use their test results as long as the fish do not touch water here in Indiana. If they do, then I have to submit 3 years of clean health tests to get the pre-importation papers.

The paperwork has been submitted, as soon as I receive the pre-importation papers I will be moving fish. I have a few to stock that are not "public waters of the state", so they can receive Tilapia, and I have orders for stocking of Northern Bluegill, which, typically will be approved for both types of ponds.

It is my understanding that as long as the ponds are truly private, no testing is required. But, the fish will all be tested and approved anyway, so that is a moot point.

Last edited by esshup; 05/18/17 07:45 AM.

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Got it. Well, if you ever come as far as GR let me know. I would consider doing tilapia this year and my minnow traps show me that I have had some type of a successful RES spawn last summer and have some nice 1" young RES. That means this may be second full season of spawn and I think there may have been a few precocious RES the first year they were stocked that spawned late in the summer. Their only predator is YP so I may have to think about some single sex LMB or SMB or Walleye? I would need very small numbers though.

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I just had an e-mail from Michigan and no testing is required if the pond is a private pond. I will be in Watervliet, Mi next week. wink


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Single sexing fish season is over for me. I have to source LMB that are large enough to spawn and have eggs/milt. Then catheter each fish to find out what is inside. That is the only way I know to sex LMB or SMB. CC, I sent you a PM.

Last edited by esshup; 05/18/17 08:33 AM.

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