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#467665 03/26/17 08:04 AM
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I am thinking my next pond will be for CC. Can Crappie be used as a forage fish for CC? I am looking for something different in this 3rd pond.

RAH #467667 03/26/17 08:09 AM
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Maybe if you can get consistent spawns from them. I think mine have spawned only once since spring of 14....

RAH #467672 03/26/17 08:25 AM
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Are you talking about the CC or crappie spawning?

RAH #467812 03/27/17 12:50 PM
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I would not think Crappie would be a good forage for Channel Cats.

I think the mouth gape of a Channel Cat is pretty small compared to the shape of a crappie.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

RAH #467814 03/27/17 01:05 PM
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I think for a pond with the dominant species being CC, the best forage would be pellets, followed by crawfish, FHM, and small BG. I have caught wild 20 inch CC on limb lines on 3 to 3.5 inch BG. CC above a pound or so will turn over rocks and sticks looking for crawfish.

RAH #467817 03/27/17 01:24 PM
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Would GSH be an option?

RAH- what species do you have now? It's probably a shorter list than to ask what would be new to you.

Last edited by fish n chips; 03/27/17 01:26 PM.
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I have FHM, RES, YP, SMB, and GSH in one pond and LMB, BG, RES, and FHM in the other pond. The LMB pond had CC but they seem to be all gone (never saw reproduction). The new CC pond will include breeding sites. I was hoping for another fishing opportunity using crappie as forage, especially since I have a neighbor who likes pan fish as is pretty good at catching them. I was hoping large CC might be able to eat Crappie if they became stunted, which I think is the management issue in a small pond.

RAH #467841 03/27/17 04:38 PM
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I wonder if PS would be a good match with CC as a predator. They are not as fecund as BG but more than RES. IMO they should be less likely to over populate than either BCP or BG with CC as predator. They stay smaller longer so should be a good fit for the CC mouth gap. PS do get big enough to fillet and taste great. IMO a CC and PS pond might produce some trophy PS.

Just an idea....

Last edited by Bill D.; 03/27/17 04:39 PM. Reason: Typo

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RAH #467842 03/27/17 04:41 PM
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I never thought of PS as a food fish. That is an interesting idea.

RAH #467890 03/28/17 05:40 AM
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"Channel catfish do not play a significant fish predator role in Missouri ponds. Fish eaten are generally dead or injured."

https://mdc.mo.gov/property/pond-stream-care/ponds-fish-frog-management/stocking-fish-your-pond

This seems odd to me?

RAH #467898 03/28/17 07:37 AM
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Rah,

I have found that the MO Conservation Dept differs on many aspects of pond management to what I find experienced PB experts talking about. Don't get me wrong, I think Missouri has one of the best, if not "the best", conservation departments in the US. My suspicion is that the MOCODept caters to the "stock it and leave it" group much more than the mild pond experimentalist, let alone the extremist.

I fished a stocked, supplement pellet fed, and managed CC pond once that had 6 to 10 pound CC. This pond had numerous LMB, but not a one was caught larger than 12 inches or so. I believe they were overpopulated and stunted. The 5 CC that I caught that morning were all caught using large Mepps spinners. These fish were accustomed to eating LMB as forage to fill out their diet.

With that said, Crappie could work, but their deep body may not be as advantageous as the LMB to be eaten by the CC. I would think that you would have to grow the CC out to at least a pound or two on minnows before introducing the Crappie and then stock larger crappie to spawn the forage. Growing the CC on minnows would get them used to chasing down there food, once the minnows were taken away, the crappie YOY would be the next best thing.

Just my two cents in a ten dollar bag.


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What do you think of the pumkinseed idea?

RAH #467904 03/28/17 08:22 AM
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I don't have any experience with the PS to speak of. I would think, however, that stocking the PS at the same time as the CC that the balance would have a better chance of stabilizing with larger PS to produce YOY as the CC grew to the size it would take to eat the PS YOY and not your breeding stock. The numbers of CC might have to be reduced to accommodate the lower reproduction rates of the PS (I don't know). Merely speculation on my part, but I think the PS/CC plan has some merit. I do believe that minnows should be a major part of the initial plan to get the CC warmed up to the idea of working for their dinner. More live food than pellets.

Hopefully someone can put me in my place if need be!


Fish on!,
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RAH #467913 03/28/17 09:01 AM
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My concern is whether the CC can control the PS numbers. I can't find any info where someone has tried the CC/PS combo before. On the upside... I would think that if the PS start to overpopulate, adding a few LMB should fix the problem pretty quick.

Last edited by Bill D.; 03/28/17 09:03 AM.

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RAH #467915 03/28/17 09:18 AM
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I think that I would need to add PS first just because I think I could only source them in small numbers. After they spawn, I could add FHM as food. Finally I could add CC at a low density. Adding HSB might be an option for a non-reproducing predator if the PS get out of hand. I like the idea of PS as a novel fish. Of course, I need to actually build this pond, which I can hopefully do during a couple weeks of vacation with the JD550 and some luck on the weather.

RAH #467916 03/28/17 09:20 AM
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I have a good bit of experience with CC. BG will over populate and be stunted and you will find a mass abundance of little BG needing to be removed. I seine small BG out of overstock CC ponds and transport them to LMB heavy ponds. FHM will pretty much disappear. Gams tend to survive here in the South as they will stay close to cover (however that means they also provide less food value since they cant be caught very well). It really seems that way to me about any fish that does not use the open water. I have noticed when I mix the RES in with high volume CC I tend to see very few small RES. In my 3ac BCP pond (BCP, CC, RES, CNBG, Gams) with 1500 CC as the primary predator I have only caught original stocker BCP & RES. I (The problem is I do not know if the CC are controlling the BCP or have they just not bred for the last 4 years). The Gams are still there fewer in number. CC will eat small LMB (I have even watched the cats kill LMB being bucket stocked) and small CC not to mention frogs, snakes and anything that will hit or die in the water that is easy for them to get to. The more the CC the more aggressive the behavior for food (even with supplemental feed). I will see if I can get a chance to shoot you some video this weekend of what overstock aggressive CC will do.

BTW I watched the CC eat about 20 Peking duck eggs this last weekend. I just laid them in about 6" of water and thru out a little food to call the CC in. When they arrived I busted 2 eggs and watched the feeding frenzy start. It took them about 5 minutes to get all the eggs broke and eaten (including shells) after the feed was gone.

RAH #467917 03/28/17 09:30 AM
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The CC that I had in my big pond behaved like sharks. They never bred and died out. I will not add them back to this older pond, but will leave LMB as the top predator. I think that the new pond will be the CC pond.

Tums #467920 03/28/17 09:35 AM
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I wonder if the CC are disrupting the nesting of the other fish by rooting around in the nest where the fish lay eggs? If the RES are not big enough to run them off, that may be the reason for low recruitment. CC eating the eggs in the nests.


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RAH #467921 03/28/17 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: RAH
I think that I would need to add PS first just because I think I could only source them in small numbers. After they spawn, I could add FHM as food. Finally I could add CC at a low density. Adding HSB might be an option for a non-reproducing predator if the PS get out of hand. I like the idea of PS as a novel fish. Of course, I need to actually build this pond, which I can hopefully do during a couple weeks of vacation with the JD550 and some luck on the weather.


I really like the HSB idea as a backup if the PS need additional control.

FWIW Keystone Hatcheries has PS but it would be about a 3+ hour drive each way for you. If interested, you can find their contact info in the Pond Boss Resource Guide.

Last edited by Bill D.; 03/28/17 09:44 AM.

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RAH #467922 03/28/17 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: RAH
The CC that I had in my big pond behaved like sharks. They never bred and died out. I will not add them back to this older pond, but will leave LMB as the top predator. I think that the new pond will be the CC pond.


I've had CC recruitment in my main pond the last two years, in low numbers. But my LMB recruitment is absent. So the low LMB pressure may be why some survived. I have ledges, some cavity's, stumps and old tires so I think they were able to find nesting sites.


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snrub #467932 03/28/17 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: snrub
I wonder if the CC are disrupting the nesting of the other fish by rooting around in the nest where the fish lay eggs? If the RES are not big enough to run them off, that may be the reason for low recruitment. CC eating the eggs in the nests.

Size of RES are not an issue as we have caught some close to 2#. I do think the CC group up and raid the nest during spawning. I also wondered if the CC eat a lot of the feed that RES would normally eat. Anyway I never seem to have had much recruitment of RES when combined with higher stocking volume of CC.

snrub #467935 03/28/17 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: snrub

I've had CC recruitment in my main pond the last two years, in low numbers. But my LMB recruitment is absent. So the low LMB pressure may be why some survived. I have ledges, some cavity's, stumps and old tires so I think they were able to find nesting sites.

I watched CC eat LMB like candy. I can see I really need to make some videos and upload for people to see what I have observed. Maybe I can get time to get a frenzy going this weekend and get a few videos. You will be surprised at how close the shark comment is to the truth during a frenzy.

Last edited by Tums; 03/28/17 11:00 AM.
Tums #467941 03/28/17 11:38 AM
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I have made the comment before here on PBF that the CC way of swimming reminds me of sharks. We see lots of sharks in open water while diving in the Bahamas. Mostly reef sharks but occasionally others.

The first year I fished my main pond one of my favorite baits was a curly tail jig cast and retrieve. I caught a number of CC along with the BG and LMB with that simple small lure. That told me the CC would strike at moving targets and most likely any small fish that got close enough.

My wife fishes specifically for CC (mostly so she can put down the rod and do her knitting) whereas I fish mostly for BG with jigs. I'll catch as many CC as she does.


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Tums #467942 03/28/17 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tums
I have a good bit of experience with CC. BG will over populate and be stunted and you will find a mass abundance of little BG needing to be removed. I seine small BG out of overstock CC ponds and transport them to LMB heavy ponds. FHM will pretty much disappear. Gams tend to survive here in the South as they will stay close to cover (however that means they also provide less food value since they cant be caught very well). It really seems that way to me about any fish that does not use the open water. I have noticed when I mix the RES in with high volume CC I tend to see very few small RES. In my 3ac BCP pond (BCP, CC, RES, CNBG, Gams) with 1500 CC as the primary predator I have only caught original stocker BCP & RES. I (The problem is I do not know if the CC are controlling the BCP or have they just not bred for the last 4 years). The Gams are still there fewer in number. CC will eat small LMB (I have even watched the cats kill LMB being bucket stocked) and small CC not to mention frogs, snakes and anything that will hit or die in the water that is easy for them to get to. The more the CC the more aggressive the behavior for food (even with supplemental feed). I will see if I can get a chance to shoot you some video this weekend of what overstock aggressive CC will do.

BTW I watched the CC eat about 20 Peking duck eggs this last weekend. I just laid them in about 6" of water and thru out a little food to call the CC in. When they arrived I busted 2 eggs and watched the feeding frenzy start. It took them about 5 minutes to get all the eggs broke and eaten (including shells) after the feed was gone.





Very Interesting. I'm enjoying this thread!



Bill D. #467947 03/28/17 12:16 PM
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FWIW Keystone Hatcheries has PS but it would be about a 3+ hour drive each way for you. If interested, you can find their contact info in the Pond Boss Resource Guide. [/quote]

Did not see these or any fish on their website?

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