Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Flying Yellow perch.

Hello.

I want to know if the eggs of the Perch can be transported to a pond by a bird or a Raccoon, if the eggs stick on them by a rainy night.

Also what types of fish can be bring by the birds.

I know it's funny question to ask

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I think the experts here generally agree that the possibility of fish eggs hitchhiking between bodies of water are slim and none. Certainly is a common theory though.

Here is the Missouri Conservationist Magazines take on the subject...

Q: I heard that birds can eat fertilized fish eggs from one pond and then, through their droppings, �seed� another pond with those eggs. Is that true?

A: The digestive process and the anaerobic conditions that the fish eggs would experience in the bird�s gut would be fatal. It may be possible for fish eggs to be moved by birds if the eggs were stuck to their feet or, more likely, contained in vegetation transported by a bird. A lot of things would have to go right for that to occur and it would certainly be very uncommon. When fish appear in an unstocked pond, it is usually the result of wild fish moving upstream or downstream from other ponds or streams in the watershed during wet periods or due to intentional stockings.

This came from this site...

https://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2011/09/miscellany

I don't believe this is something that happens on a regular basis, but it happens.

I remember reading a thread (probably on PB) that suggested that the large herons will regurgitate their last meal (or their meal in process of going down their throat) if they get spooked. I though it sounded fishy, but within a week, oddly enough, I spooked one in the creek by accident and I saw something come from its mouth. It was a minnow of some sort and was still alive.

I suspect that almost any egg from a water animal could get transferred to another BOW on occasion. I would tend to believe the above quote in saying that plants being moved around by land animals are more likely to carry the eggs.

When one considers that isolated lakes remained fish-free for thousands of years, it seems hard to believe that birds are regularly responsible for moving fish around. Maybe like the chances of getting hit twice by lightning.

When pigs fly.....snappers will appear everywhere.

I hear about sticky fish eggs but can't say I have had eggs stick to me where a little water didn't rinse them off. I know some fish do lay sticky eggs like Fatheads where they purposely stick the eggs underneath rocks or even under lily pads. I can't imagine any bird flying around with a Perch ribbon stuck to it.

If you watch video of fish farms, they often stir the milt into the eggs with a feather. If the eggs stuck to the feathers they would use a different tool.

I have an overflow culvert that runs continuously out of my pond. There are often small fish coming up the stream and in the pool below the culvert. Many fish do move up stream and in a seasonal flood they go everywhere. I believe this is the most common method fish get into new water.

Remember the fish can be very small and in a tiny stream of water and get into your pond. That event only needs to happen once and in a matter of seconds you have a new fish. Think about a good down pour of rain and how you see streams of water run across the ground where there is normally dry ground, that's all it takes.

My thoughts are that a number of fish eggs are initially "sticky" when released but at the moment of fertilization the exterior coating begins to harden and then the exposed portions of the eggs quickly lose their stickiness. In theory this would help keep fish eggs stuck in place they were deposited and at the same time make them more difficult to move them elsewhere. A bird would need to standing in the right spot at the right time in order to get fertilized eggs stuck to their feet, I find that highly unlikely.

With that said, some types of fish eggs such as grass carp the eggs do need to tumble in current for a while in order to become viable. Those types of eggs are likely not sticky at all.

Hello.

This article on egg transfer seems very interesting, I go to Google translate, it puts it in English but I can't put it on the Forum, can anyone help me.Tthank you.

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2...s-deau-peuvent-ils-grouiller-de-poissons
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How can isolated lakes, deprived of access to a watercourse, teem with fish?

FRANCE MEDIA AGENCY
Wednesday, March 22, 2023 3:04 p.m.

UPDATE Wednesday, March 22, 2023 3:04 p.m.

A true stowaway, the common perch, a freshwater fish very common in Europe, colonizes lakes with the transport of its eggs by ducks, according to a study published in Biology Letters on Wednesday.

How can isolated lakes, deprived of access to a watercourse, still teem with fish? Charles Darwin had suggested a clue when he noticed that mollusc larvae attached themselves to the legs of a duck, before assuming that they could survive the flight leading them to a new body of water to colonize.

Avian zoochory

Experiments, most of them recent, have explored the process of avian zoochory, by which living organisms play stowaways from one place to another, on the feathers or even in the stomach of a bird.


The study carried out by doctoral student Flavien Garcia and his colleagues from the Evolution and Biological Diversity Laboratory at the University of Toulouse III, with the help of an American professor of aquatic biology, is the first to seek proof of this in the field.

More precisely in a set of gravel lakes in Haute-Garonne, in the south-west of France. Typically, these flooded quarries are operated by companies and closed strictly to the public. Once their resources are exhausted, after ten or fifteen years, they are then generally opened to him.

Biologists examined 37 of them, a third of which were still closed and inaccessible to anglers. All these lakes had a population mainly composed of common perch.

The study first ruled out a possible source of “colonization” of these bodies of water through the habit of angling enthusiasts to populate them with fish, to better hook them.

Gravel pit managers have ruled out any introduction of fish into their operation. As for lakes open to the public, fishermen who confessed to wild releases of fry admitted to doing so with more sporty species, such as trout perch or carp.

Fish roe as an appetizer

Another observation excluding human intervention is based on the genetic analysis of more than 500 perch. The artificial introduction of perch should result in greater genetic diversity of the species in lakes open to fishing... However, it is approximately equal to that of gravel pits closed to the public.

Other “lines of evidence” support the role of birds in colonization, particularly the mallard duck. “There is a synchrony between the time of perch spawning and a period of high duck abundance,” notes Flavien Garcia.

The mallard and the Coot, a moorhen, populate the lakes until the end of their wintering period, in February. Precisely during the reproduction period of the common perch, which needs very cold water for its spawning, between 8 and 10 degrees Celsius.

Its eggs, as tiny as they are innumerable, extend into long gelatinous ribbons that can reach up to five feet. Adhering, at water level, to plants and stones, they can easily stick to the legs or feathers of ducks. Or even end up as an aperitif in their throats.

However, recent experiments have shown that fish eggs can survive the intestinal transit of their host...

Genetic analysis provides another clue, with a link between the geographical proximity of the lakes and the genetic proximity of the perch that live there. Researchers have even identified “first generation migrants,” explains Mr. Garcia. That is to say “perch whose genotype belongs to that of the population of another lake”.

Furthermore, half of lake colonizations take place over a distance of less than 2 km. The same one that ducks usually cover.

The only missing evidence is the ability of the perch egg to survive the digestion of the mallard. It would require a “practically and ethically complicated” experiment, says Mr. Garcia, including sacrificing the animals to examine their digestive tract.

Hello.

Thank you very much Snipe.
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Yellow perch eggs are not sticky. YP eggs do not adhere. Ribbons rest or hang on structure. Eggs are imbedded in a gelatinous matrix that is not sticky. It has been tested and shown the egg ribbons have an offensive flavor. Ducks on my pond will not eat the YP eggs. I have seen bullfrog tadpoles on the egg ribbons but do not know if they are eating the eggs.

I'm glad you said that Bill... When I'm collecting ribbons, it's a 2 handed affair because you can't even gather them before they slip away. I've learned to put bucket in water and swim the ribbons into them.
Now, I will say something about WAE eggs... when we are fertilizing we use goose primary wing feathers to stir sperm and eggs, when you stir for 30 sec to fertilize, you have to leave feather in pan until clay is added to remove adhesive layer, otherwise there will be thousands of fertilized eggs stuck to the feather-different duck though (no pun intended).
In the above article, do we know these to be specifically YP?? Perch is such a loosely used term in some cases, but I'm guessing being it's the European flavor it's the real McCoy..

I have had green sunfish and mosquito minnows just show up pretty fast in new ponds that I have dug, with no introduction of any fish on my part.
How did they get in there?

Both fish will swim in the skinniest amount of water so if you had any hard rain events they could have swam from one BOW to another. Mosquito fish are live bearers so a single gravid female can populate a pond. If a pond has been dug in a wet spot in a field or a woods, if you don't sterilize the water before digging you probably have both in the water already and once the pond is finished, their population explodes..

How did the WATER get there?

Is there any change a tiny portion of the water came from a water source containing fish?

Purely for discussion, I had just the opposite experience of yours this fall. I did some work by our creek and was getting eaten by mosquitos. I never get mosquitos down there because the creek is full of hungry Gambusia. However, our creek went dry this summer due to the drought. We did get some fall rains that raised the groundwater level. Eventually some of the low spots in the creek did fill with water percolating upwards from the creek bottom, but looking at the debris in the creek, it was obvious that the creek had never resumed flowing. I was working by one such pool and it had damn mosquito larva swimming in it. I sure look forward to my Gambusia coming back this spring!

as far as the never ending speculation about how fish get in empty bodies of water I still can't understand why we just keep passing on the old assumptions and theories when they don't make much sense. I guess each can have their own favorite theory, but this forum has members gifted in biology, in research, in mathematics, and in the standard scientific method or hypotheses, experimentation and conclusion.

It is crazy that we still just say that eggs stick to raccoon legs or bird feathers and figure we must have hit a home run on solving that question.

We should be way beyond just speculation with our current ability to set up and control experiments and separate the speculation cause from the real cause. Cameras are cheap and can be setup with convenient cell phone connections.

It seems like 10 people could set up 10 small depressions in the ground (or 5 people could set up 2 each) and be sure the only source of water able to get into the depression would be from the sky. Assuming a newly created dug out area with no water and no fish. Add chlorinated water if one wanted to be sure there wasn't any fish eggs in the tap water (now that is an interesting concept not mentioned in the articles above). Then set up a camera to monitor 24x7.

If no stork, duck or other bird lands in the water then you have proven the concept. If no raccoon takes a drink or possum or other animal then we can't blame then. If no water comes over land in a runoff event then that takes care of that idea. If a month or two goes by and suddenly there are fish in there then we have to go back to hypothesizing how fish get in there. If several months go by and no fish show up then we can say that not all ponds will self-stock themselves with fish like is commonly put forth.

It is in a way nice to know that somehow fish will find their way into any new body of water and I as much as anyone am curious about how, but to say eggs are sticky, and they jump on to animal legs, and they survive the hike or the flight over to the next pond and then they jump off as soon as they feel they are in their new home, and then they go back to a nest in the new pond and finish hatching... I just don't know.

But again, that is more just for discussion and not to say that I have the answers. I just feel we can use the same scientific method to set up some simple scenarios to shed light on the question.

What if we found out that there was really a modern day Johnny Appleseed who went around secretly stocking fish for us? Or that those big white trails or smoke we see across the sky (read online about the jet plane contrail controversy) are simply the government ejecting water streams and are stocking millions of fish which happen to land in every available puddle to spawn?

All in good fun of course. It is heartening for me to know that we don't know everything and there still is a mystery for us to marvel at even with all our advanced science and technology.

Hello.

To fuel discussion for fun.
From Audubon.

https://www.audubon.org/news/mallards-ferry-fish-eggs-between-waterbodies-through-their-poop
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I suspect there are some good academic papers on this topic, but perhaps not?

If so, then I like your proposal that WE perform some actual science!

I did learn long ago in 7th-grade biology that spontaneous generation is not possible ... so we can at least rule that one out.

The French study that azteca linked does suggest avian transport and stocking of fish. However, that study relies heavily on indirect methods of determining that birds were the stocking vector.

I like your direct study ideas.

While I was typing, azteca posted another study. The reference in my prior comment refers to the French study. I haven't yet read his new link.

Wow, azteca's new link is based on direct experimental evidence.

I would NOT have guessed that fish eggs would remain viable passing through the digestive system of a duck. However, ducks and geese do seem to possess inefficient, high-bypass digestive systems.

If we don't want invasive fish species in our ponds, does that mean we will all need to deploy hyperactive Labrador Retrievers to protect our waters?

This is an interesting topic! If there's one thing I've come to understand is that pretty much nothing is impossible and....sometimes the answers to mans questions are the simplest.

My experiences.

I've built ponds with no incoming or outgoing water (spring fed) and within 2 or 3 weeks there are minnows in it. The only sign of life I see during the early growth (first few weeks) are raccoons, mink, herons, frogs, turtles and puddle ducks. I have one tiny pond that is about 12 feet round and it is one of my best minnow growing ponds.

I've also seen snapping turtles with leeches on their backs with fresh mud travelling from pond to pond.

We have many birds of prey and I've seen a fish fall out their grip..in another pond.

While in the arctic we flew some biologists into landlocked lakes to study char and trout...they could have been located by higher water levels or.....?

And a pond/swamp I trap often (about 10 acres wide and 6 feet deep) was drained by some otters, in the end there were thousands of max 4 inch long sunfish, private property in the same family since the 1800's and no oral history of it ever being stocked. There is nothing above that pond for them to come from and there is no way they could have swam up to that swamp.

My remote cabin in Quebec has walled in it...many of them, those were brought in by one fella in a backpack in the 1950's, its the best walleye lake I've ever fished.

Just my experiences.

Cheers.

Lou

Rain, ponds were dug in July during a dry spell in open field.

No ditch nearby with any moisture no puddles from a woods or low spots. Ponds were dug in what was a farm field rotated crop and tilled for at least the last 100 years.
Did see shore birds around ponds almost immediately after the rain. I sure didn't mind seeing mosquito fish show up but don't really care for green sunfish. Was just surprised at how fast they showed, almost before any plant life even started.
Nature is interesting.

Love that others have unique perspectives too. I'd love to hear how you carry walleye cross country in a backpack and keep them alive!

Green sunfish sound like they have the fortitude, genetics, and ability to self-propagate that would make them the solution to world hunger!!

If we ever have a full-scale nuclear war, then cockroaches will rule the land and green sunfish will rule the fresh waters of the world!

The tardigrades will continue to rule the low earth orbital region.

EXPERTS Agree……BS!

Osage Orange trees will thrive.

I have 100-year-old Osage Orange fence posts on our farm that are still in good shape.

I am afraid to make Osage Orange brush piles in my ponds for fear the cuttings will come back to life and take over the pond!

Osage Orange won't come back from the dead, but I wouldn't stick a freshly-cut piece of it in the dirt next to my pond.

I've never tried to propagate the stuff, but I've seen what a live one will do if you pile dirt up against the trunk and leave
it alone for a year or three. I did that with some of the spoil from my pond renovation. When I finally cleaned it up that
tree had roots the size of my wrist growing out of the trunk 6' above the original grade.

We have a mile of Osage Orange ("Hedge Apple" in Ahia) fence rows in and around our farm. In 37 years, we have managed to kill two of them.

Small ones.

Dang it!

Just went back to edit and add the grinning emoticon to denote that I was joking.

If you dig a ditch cutting Hedge roots, new trees will sprout on both sides of the ditch.

Our Honey Locust is the same way. Cut down several when I first started clearing brush at our property. Apparently the roots have "nodes" that will propagate a new tree - or 50.

I now nuke them (and Osage Orange) with Pathway applied to a fresh cut stump in the fall when the sap is running down to the roots. Pathway is 2,4-D and picloram. It is a systemic herbicide and is not supposed to be used near bodies of water.

I have even seen it kill Honey Locust trees 40 feet away that I did NOT treat. I assume the trees were connected via their root network?

How do you sterilize ground water before digging a new pond as suggested ? Is it a total waste of time to try to avoid green sunfish ? I'm having a pond dug out that will be fed by watershed and water table when high enough. Neighbor has a small pond 1/2 mile away that has green sunfish in it.

B storm,

Ground water does NOT need to be sterilized to avoid the transfer of unwanted fish. No fish fry or eggs can pass a sand aquifer. (The only exception would be something like a cavern that transmits underground stream flow to a pond.)

The neighbor's pond MIGHT be a different story.

My upslope neighbor has a waterway through his alfalfa field. It conveys water right into the waterway in my field. If your neighbor's pond were to overflow during a heavy rain event, would any fish escapees go into some type of waterway that would then feed surface water into your pond? If so, then I would suspect you would have a decent chance of getting GSF in your pond.

Another situation would be where his waterway and your waterway join together somewhere farther downslope. In that case, as the flows start to wane, fish will frequently start swimming back "upstream". I have seen fish swim up flows where their backs were out of the water! The solution for that situation is to create an "air gap" for your pond outlet pipe. Instead of having your pipe terminate in a pool of water, put a 45 degree elbow and an extension on the end so that it sticks up in the air. You would need to create a splash pad of rock or concrete so your outlet pipe heavy flows don't create an erosion problem.

Are you good friends with your neighbor? If his pond is going to drain directly into your pond, then perhaps you could help him install a better water inlet screen for his pond outlet pipe. That would be a win-win situation. His fish are more likely to stay in his pond, and more likely to stay out of your pond.

Good luck on your new pond project!

IF the area that you are digging your pond in has standing water in it, I'd consider using hydrated lime to bring the pH up to 11, that will kill any fish.

Like FishingRod says, you don't have to sterilize ground water, just keep an eye on surface water. Fish can move from pond to pond in less than 1" flowing water (or standing water for that matter).

Oops, esshup is correct that I left out one scenario.

If you have an existing body of water that could have been filled by either groundwater and/or surface water, then you should sterilize THAT before spending big bucks on your stocking plans.

OK thanks guys My neighbors pond does not flow into mine in any way. Only connection would be source of underground water above us when water table gets high enough. Watershed is separated by valley which meets below ,no way for fish to get back to me. Mine plan is to put a drop box type drain then pipe thru bottom of damn rather than the pipe near top. No standing water yet, but alot of mud lately. Can't start till it dries up somewhat. After all that dry spell ,my luck.

If there is no surface water connection to another pond or creek, then I don't see any risk of invasive fish coming in via groundwater.

If the flow of water from your outlet will not create a continuous water connection to a creek, then you should be safe from fish moving upstream. However, they will move upstream from surprisingly little water flows!

How are you going to keep your pond excavation area dry enough to work if you are creating a groundwater pond? You may need to cut a sump and a drainage trench to convey water out of your worksite and far down the slope away from you.

If the geometry of that does not work, then you probably need to dig a sump and plan on running a trash pump while you are excavating the pond. Wet clay is NOT FUN when combined with heavy equipment.

Good luck on your new pond!

If putting a drain through the toe of the dam, you will need to compact the dirt under, on the sides and on top of the drain pipe, in addition you should have an anti-seep collar or two on the drain pipe.

My understanding is we're letting water thru a temp hole in drop box and out drain pipe. Then I'll close off the temp hole with concrete. The pipe will have clay completely around it top ,bottom ,and sides. Along with a clay key length of dam and below water line.