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#466036 03/07/17 02:23 PM
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Those of you that know me are aware that I will do just about anything necessary to cut costs and still get a quality result. Our LNP project is a perfect example of sweat equity in return for an affordable weekend retreat. Right from the beginning of development, I did have to hire out for any heavy lifting. Stuff like backhoes, loaders, etc. The largest motorized piece of equipment in our arsenal was a 21 HP Craftsman garden tractor. We beat the crap outta that thing, cutting brush and weeds that easily qualified for brush hog oversight.
I have always wanted a tractor with a FEL. It just wasn't in the financial cards for me, particularly since we had no choice but to divert any available funds to building the pond and the Garage Apt. Well, the pond and the crib are done, and I still wanted a tractor. I looked at every color: green, orange, red, blue. Same old story: my beer budget might be able to fund something smaller, but you better call the bank for the bigger huevos you seek. Then I had a flashback
Back about 12 years ago, when we had our place on the Tippecanoe River , I would go into town to Rural King and see these fancy new tractors for real cheap. I mean real cheap. Even back then, I wanted one, and I really didn't even have a need for it. Fast forward, and the Rural King tractors re-emerge into my pond life. Many of you guys already know what kinda tractor I'm talking about.
They are made by one of largest tractor manufacturers in China; Foton. Rural King and a handful of other distributors brought a bunch of 'em over here, re-badged 'em as their own brand, and moved the inventory. The up side? Big bang for the buck. The down side? You may have to put some wrench time into fixing them. Well, I'm pretty good with the wrenches, I have all the subject wrenches. The only thing I don't have is a bunch of available funds to buy the big name brand, so this is becoming a match made in China. I bought one.
I picked it up from a tractor dealer in KY, pretty cheap. It's model year 2006 and the hour meter says 60. Pretty hard to believe, but the tires still had the flashing between the lugs. It was very clean. Onto the trailer and haul her to the new home.



Next, I'm off to craigslist and found an older Land Pride 72" brush cutter. The gear box was sloppy, so I replaced with an Ebay replacement, pounded out some dents, had my welder pal tighten up a few areas, and hit it with red Rustoleum.



Next, off to China. I got an Alibaba account and started working the China vendors big time. It took a lot of emails, due diligence, and vetting, but I found a manufacturer that I trusted. I bought a backhoe, a FEL, and a hole auger and had them shipped into the US. The backhoe is pretty simple since it's a 3-point attachment. Yeah, I know that a subframe is the only way to go, but for now, it will be fine for lighter duty.



Then, the FEL. The factory did an 85% job of hitting all my measurements, but I still had to do some cutting, welding, and drilling to make the remaining 15% work. Here is the package that came over on the boat and landed on my utility trailer.



Final product:



Then, the hole auger. Pretty simple like the backhoe since it's a 3 point attachment. I bought a 6" and 12" auger.



All told, I am in for everything at about 13K

Brettski #466039 03/07/17 02:58 PM
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Brettski...I'll take one too. PM me for address, check is already in the mail. You're superhuman dude.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Brettski #466046 03/07/17 03:58 PM
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Grey market tractors are what they used to be called. Some were a bit curious, some were good machines. Is it in English? That was usually a good sign.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Brettski #466047 03/07/17 04:03 PM
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Kool.....!!!

Brettski #466048 03/07/17 04:06 PM
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Technically, the gray market tractors are the older 70's to 80's vintage Yanmar, Iseki, and there are a couple others. They were (and still are) very good machines that get a "presumed" total overhaul, a coat of gray paint, and a ride to the US for sale as good/used equipment. I researched them pretty good and they were on the short list for me.

This Foton brand is still being manufactured today. They have a couple of models with smaller engines (35hp max) that meet tier 4 and are sold as brand new stock in the US. Older models, pre tier 4, are also available. There is a good network of parts and vendors, thank you internet.

Brettski #466049 03/07/17 04:07 PM
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Brettski nice work !! I tried to reply to your first thread (assume you deleted) but the system said it was being deleted. Your DIY accomplishments are no surprise to anyone here.

Be careful to test out thoroughly all the implements and systems as a malfunction can be dangerous. Care should be used on any tractor until it and you are very well in sync. Accidents on a tractor (or other equipment) can be deadly. Caution is always warranted.
















Brettski #466051 03/07/17 04:24 PM
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Thanks Ewest, and good points; well taken. Dski and I treat the PTO like it's the stick of death (mostly cuz it is).
-
I must add that none of this stuff was plug and play. Yeah, the tractor was fully functional, but I drained every ounce of fluid and changed with fresh, lubed every joint, replaced a bunch of deteriorated rubber parts (stuff like rubber boots, fuel lines). This was all part of the cost to play. Even the brand new stuff from my Chinese factory had quirks. One of the cylinders on the FEL had a rolled seal that I had to pull and replace. The gearbox on the auger had a rolled oil seal that I had to replace. I had problems getting the backhoe to work with full pressure, but got that worked out. The real blessing was that the China factory was right there and sent me parts as I proved out the failures. The only down side is that I had to wait a couple of weeks for parts from them...and....I had to put them in. Like I said; to save a bunch of money means some sweat equity.
My real point on this thread is to point out that there is a low cost way to get stuff like this. It just requires a different approach and a committed mindset to maintenance.

ps; for those interested, the tractor is a Foton 404. 40hp, manual 4wd, 8 fwd and 4 rev speeds, 4200# of beast.

Brettski #466055 03/07/17 05:31 PM
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I had a 3pt backhoe about that size. They work very well for putting in frost free hydrants and things of that nature. They may not be a real TLB but they beat the heck out of a shovel. Finally sold the one I had whe5n I bought a JCB TLB. Probably the toughest part about them is getting your technique down for getting the 3pt hooked up with that rigid toplink. I could get it hooked up in pretty short order, but someone who did not understand how to fiddle with the hydraulics just right it could be a challenge.

Good luck with your tractor. A lifetime ago I sold and serviced Long and Belarus tractors. They were decent tractors and I basically sold new tractors for the price of used. The Longs were Romanian made Fiat liscense tractors (the smaller models). Like your tractor, sometimes the machining and castings are not the prettiest, and unless you had a good dealer or were adept at fixing mostly small things (particularly leaks) the tractors in some areas had bad reputations. We had a lot of satisfied customers, but we fixed and took care of the little problems like you are describing before it got to the customer or after the sale. The design was fine, but sometimes the quality control was not the best.

Once you get any little bugs and gremlins out, I bet it will be a good tractor for you. Someone who only would drive it till it dropped without your attention to fixing the minor details probably would not be happy with the tractor.

Edit: just noticed the FEL is self leveling. Not many loaders of that size have that feature. Quick tach, integrated parking stands, compound bucket rollback linkage, bucket teeth.

Last edited by snrub; 03/07/17 05:47 PM.

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Brettski #466056 03/07/17 06:13 PM
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I realize yours isn't a grey market machine, but for anyone interested they can represent a pretty good value. I think it's been illegal to import them since the late 90's, but still might run across one. I've had a few in the shop, and they aren't all grey....some are a pretty, familiar orange color.... wink


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
sprkplug #466058 03/07/17 06:31 PM
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I bought a couple grey market tractors once at an auction. One was a Hinimoto 2 cyl and the other was a Yanmar 2 cyl. Both with integral tillers with the slasher tines. Sweet running little tractors, if you liked the sound of a reved up johnny popper. Sold the Hini and never seen it again but a buddy still has the Yanmar and does his garden with it. Both 2wd's


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Brettski #466064 03/07/17 08:27 PM
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Kubota's official stance on grey market tractors: http://www.kubota.com/priorproduct/GrayMarketFindOut.aspx

The internet's stance on Kubota grey markets: http://www.orangetractortalks.com/2010/07/10-myths-about-kubota-gray-market-tractors/

I had forgotten about grey market's until this thread came up. Hmmm.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Brettski #466068 03/07/17 09:06 PM
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Fredricks in Alabama is one of the largest US distributors of grays. The back story about their relationship with Yanmar is interesting, if not sordid.
I also see numerous fly-by-night gray distributors pop up overnight, sell the couple/three containers they imported, then disappear from the market. It really isn't all that difficult to pull off. My exploration thru the internet, particularly Alibaba and a couple other major business-to-consumer Asian based websites was a real eye-opener.

Brettski #466069 03/07/17 09:06 PM
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Is there even a tractor, compact or otherwise, on the market anymore that is 100% manufactured and assembled in the US?


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Bill D. #466070 03/07/17 09:12 PM
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Nope and that is sad

Brettski #466071 03/07/17 09:19 PM
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My LS dealer claims there are no US built tractors under 70hp. Have no idea if that's true or not.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Brettski #466072 03/07/17 09:25 PM
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I'm with you Pat. The Chinese are very adept at reverse engineering and bring products to market at a lower price as they have almost no labor costs and don't have to invest much in research and development.


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Brettski #466073 03/07/17 09:31 PM
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The biggest US blockade to Chinese built tractors is simply their disinterest in meeting tier 4 EPA engine regulations. I communicated with dozens of manufacturers and distributors in China, desperately trying to find a Chinese built tractor that I could import into the USA. The only units were the smaller 25, 28, and 35hp models, typically powered with Perkins diesel. Anything larger with a tier 4 engine was non-existant. Yeah, there were plenty of vendors that touted that their tractors were tier 4 compliant, but when I insisted seeing their certificate and a picture of the emissions plaque on the tractor, it was suddenly unavailable. Then there was the group of vendors that assured me that it was not big deal to ship a non-tier 4 tractor into the US. The consistent story was that a single tractor will fly below the customs radar, as opposed to a full container that will likely be fully vetted. I even called the EPA and drilled down to the department that oversees the tier 4 engine import requirements. They were helpful and very firm on their posture. If a non-tier 4 engine arrives in the US and they catch it, the fine is $10,000 per day per engine or destruction at the port.

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Hasn't been for years.

Back in the mid to late 70's when in business I had a chart that showed all the origins of mfg for tractors and major components of utility size tractors. The only one I remember being mostly US made was White had what they called American 60 and 80 tractors that were based on the old Oliver 1650 type frame and transmission with a Cummins 4 cyl engine and utility type front axle and tires. That one was mostly if not all American. White American 60 Last one I know of that was American made in anything under 100 hp.

Deere made a big deal when the first 5000 series tractors came out about 20 years ago about being "Made in America". Yeah, right. I have owned a number of the 5000 series and the assembly plant is in Georgia and some of the sheet metal on some of the models was made there, but all you had to do was look under the seat on the ones I had to see the transmission was made in India (pretty sure the name was an India Mfg, if not somewhere else in the East). The engine had a made in France badge. Some of the 3pt linkage had Italy or Japan or I can't remember where. Deere kind of quit pushing the "made in USA' angle when they realized people could actually read. The 5003 series like the 5303 I had was totally made in India. The 5005 series was made in their Mexican factory. Yada, yada, yada.

Tractors under 100 hp are made anywhere and almost everywhere besides the USA. There may be some assembly and "Americanization" done in the US and maybe even some sheet metal or plastic hoods done here, but they are all basically foreign made.

Biggest 4wd track articulated Deere tractor made (over 600 HP) is made in the USA but used a Cummins engine made in China. Right there on the side of the block. Made in China. Seen it myself. Do give them credit though, their 8000 and 9000 series tractors are still made in America (except for things like Japanese starters, alternators and who knows what else) and the JD engines in that size tractors are made in the US. Surprised me that they used a Chinese Cummins in the big one rather than a US produced Cummins.

Hopefully we start seeing more "made in America" badges, but it is going to mean prices will be going up. Can't replace 3 dollar an hour workers with 25 dollar an hour workers and expect to pay the same for the end product. Unless maybe we don't even use people and go mostly to robots.

Last edited by snrub; 03/07/17 09:52 PM.

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Brettski #466077 03/07/17 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: Brettski
The biggest US blockade to Chinese built tractors is simply their disinterest in meeting tier 4 EPA engine regulations. I communicated with dozens of manufacturers and distributors in China, desperately trying to find a Chinese built tractor that I could import into the USA. The only units were the smaller 25, 28, and 35hp models, typically powered with Perkins diesel. Anything larger with a tier 4 engine was non-existant. Yeah, there were plenty of vendors that touted that their tractors were tier 4 compliant, but when I insisted seeing their certificate and a picture of the emissions plaque on the tractor, it was suddenly unavailable. Then there was the group of vendors that assured me that it was not big deal to ship a non-tier 4 tractor into the US. The consistent story was that a single tractor will fly below the customs radar, as opposed to a full container that will likely be fully vetted. I even called the EPA and drilled down to the department that oversees the tier 4 engine import requirements. They were helpful and very firm on their posture. If a non-tier 4 engine arrives in the US and they catch it, the fine is $10,000 per day per engine or destruction at the port.


I have experienced what you are saying first hand. Around 15 years ago I was in a meeting to discuss buying a product from China. We had very specific requirements. I came away with the impression if I had stated all the paint must taste like chocolate, the Chinese rep would have guaranteed that all their paint tastes like chocolate. It's a different culture. No rules and no ethics when it comes to business is the accepted and encouraged practice.


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Bill D. #466078 03/07/17 10:05 PM
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Have a high school buddy that started working at Modine as a welder (make cooling systems like radiators, oil coolers, etc.). Worked his way up the ranks and ended up in Seoul, Korea as head of quality control.

They would at times have him travel to China and even wanted him to move there (Seoul is a very modern city, China where he would have been, not so - he said no).

He said you could show the Chinese a part and they would say "you want part look like that, we make part look like that". And they would. The part would look exactly like that. It might or might not work, might be made out of the incorrect material, but it would look perfect.

I remember when I was about 8-10 years old (around 1962 or so) and we had a 5 & dime store named I think Kresses. My mom would drag me in there and if I was not in the bulk candy area I would be in the back where there would be a bin of tools that I think were a buck or two each (long time ago). They all said "made in Japan" and they were the shoddiest things you ever saw. Anyone old enough will remember the Japanese back then had the same level of quality that the Chinese did about ten years ago.

But just like Japan came up in the world to the point that Japanese products are now and have been for years considered some of the best in the world, so are the Chinese getting a lot better. In the last ten years, I have seen Chinese products improve immensely. They likely will get there, and some of their specific industries are already there.

I remember some of the first Chinese tractor imports. They made the Russian Belarus look like slick machines. The later stuff looks a lot better.

Last edited by snrub; 03/07/17 10:08 PM.

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Brettski #466079 03/07/17 10:08 PM
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I gotta share my sudden shift to exuberance regarding the possibility of purchasing and importing a Chinese built tractor. This really got me nuts and sent me chasing my tier 4 tail.
-
This email offer is from the manufacturer that I ultimately purchased my implements from. It is one of the earlier emails we exchanged while I was being home-schooled on tractors made in China. I started my interest in their tractors at a normal compact size; 40-45hp. When I saw the price, I couldn't stop pushing and had to know the largest tractor they could ship as a one-off and still fit inside the container fully assembled. My Chinese salesperson said that the 70hp unit with full cab can be shipped fully assembled. They let the air out of the tires, push it into the container, and strap it down. Take a look at the factory quote for one 70hp unit into Chicago.




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Yupp. I've got a brand new John Deere planter sitting at home I ordered last summer that came in recently. The guys just finished putting it together and field testing it. I have not seen it yet except in a couple pictures but when I get there I will see the tail wheel castings that say "made in China" along with a bunch of other castings and some other castings and parts will be made in Italy or even other places. At least the planters I saw at the farm shows like mine were that way. At least the frame and probably more is still made in Iowa.

Hard to compete price wise with low labor cost and subsidized industries. As long as we can manufacture dollars for free (digital dollars, zeros in computers) and trade them for real goods overseas getting them coming back in the form of government debt (foreign investment in treasuries), that will continue.

Should the mighty dollar have a hiccup and lose the international standing as the major clearing currency for international trade (petro dollar world reserve currency)............. without getting into a monetary discussion lets just say things could get "interesting".

Last edited by snrub; 03/08/17 07:16 AM.

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Sounds like you got a great deal on that tractor.

Hard to compete with slave labor assembly rates and subsidized raw materials. Where is the cry for a $15.00 minimum wage over there? grin

I spent 2 decades as a purchasing manager for a manufacturing firm using raw materials from all over the world. I well remember the Chinese dumping steel at below cost rates.....it was factor in the downfall of the US steel industry.

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Originally Posted By: Brettski
Fredricks in Alabama is one of the largest US distributors of grays. The back story about their relationship with Yanmar is interesting, if not sordid.

Fredricks is a Japanese Focused Grey Market dealer.

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Originally Posted By: Tbar

Hard to compete with slave labor assembly rates and subsidized raw materials.

I used to think a lot of that was just BS. Physically seeing with eyes not filtered will change a person. This little clip below does not even do justice for what goes on in certain areas there.
Plastic recycling in China

On another note there are areas were progress has been made. Especially were foreigners allowed to visit easily.

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