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#464976 02/24/17 08:22 PM
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This may end up being long, and I apologize for that. It may not be in perfect chronological order (I will explain why shortly), but I will be fairly close. So with that said, here goes....

We had a 1.5 acre pond dug back in 2014. When full, our deepest areas are around 10ft with an avergae depth of about 5ft across the whole lake.
In Jan. of 2015, we stocked 4000 Fatheads, and 3000 Bluegill (90% Coppernose, 10% Shellcracker). I started fertilizing and pellet feeding immediately after the water hit 60F.
In May of 2015, I started noticing hatchlings of bream along the banks of the lake.
At the end of June 2015, I stocked 200 Northern LMB.
In Dec. of 2015, I started throwing rooster tails and caught a few bass ( I recorded catches of 10oz, 5oz, 8oz....with those lengths being 10in, 8.75in, 9in....not exactly what you would be expecting after 6 months in a loaded lake).
In the Spring of 2016, I managed to catch numerous fish "around" the 1 lbs. mark, but nothing more.
In May of 2016, I stocked 50 lbs. of Tilapia to aid in algae control, provide supplemental forage, and give us a snack come winter! I immediately started seeing hatchlings from the tilapia.
In Sept. of 2016 I caught a LMB 13" at 1lb 5oz (still low on RW). That fish was the biggest to date. I didnt feel like it was doing good, so I contacted my fish hatchery and they told me to start removing all of these 8-10 inch fish I had been catching. My original stock from the prior year should have been much bigger.
I have been wearing out fish and tossing them.
Fast forward to today...They came and shocked the lake. What we found was nauseating at the very least. We didn't find a single original stock bass (should have been in the 15"+ range and 2lbs. plus.) We also didn't see a lot of bream...especially smaller, edible bream. He was as baffled as me. Water tested good at 39ppm when checking alkalinity.
I am open to any and all opinions of why none of my brood stock bass are there and what could have caused such a decline in my original bream stock prior to my bass feeding on them (remember,I never caught a fish about 100% RW since pond inception).....Ready...Go!

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Welcome to Pond Boss, and sorry to hear things aren't going as you hoped.

How big were the LMB when you stocked them?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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fingerlings

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Is the pond in your yard?
Did you see fish feeding?
Was the pond filled with groundwater or rainwater?
Did you check water parameters before you stocked?

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possible predator? otter?


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Originally Posted By: Dudley Landry
Is the pond in your yard?
Did you see fish feeding?
Was the pond filled with groundwater or rainwater?
Did you check water parameters before you stocked?


Pond is in yard, but we didnt finish building our house until Nov. 2015. We have friends that live right here though.

Yes, I have seen fish feeding.

Rainwater

Water was checked prior to stocking.

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Originally Posted By: scott69
possible predator? otter?


This is the hatcheries only explanation....but they aren't sold on it since no sign was ever seen....droppings, fish remains, slides, tracks, etc.

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you and i are within a month of each stocking. i stocked 2500 cnbg and 2500 fatheads in february 2015. i stocked 150 f1 bass in may 2015. my bluegill average 9.5" and the bass average 15". i have some bass that take pellets that look twice the size of my other bass.


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Originally Posted By: scott69
you and i are within a month of each stocking. i stocked 2500 cnbg and 2500 fatheads in february 2015. i stocked 150 f1 bass in may 2015. my bluegill average 9.5" and the bass average 15". i have some bass that take pellets that look twice the size of my other bass.


Yea...I definitely have a problem. It was astonishing at the lack of fish that were in the lake. My hatchery guy told me he shocked a lake Monday that was on the same time frame as me, and those fish averaged 3 lbs. with the biggest shocked up at over 4.

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where in alabama are you located?


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Originally Posted By: scott69
where in alabama are you located?


Southside in Etowah County.

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When laid out on a timeline you can tell that the problem occurred very early, as I never caught bass at relative weight or better. This leads me to think that there was never a good effective spawn, and the bass eliminated what was there, leaving me very few bream to maintain the aggressive bass population.

The only question left with that scenario is where are the 19 month old bass? 13" is about the max that we have seen, which would equate to fish from 2016's spawn.

Last edited by justinchandler; 02/24/17 10:12 PM.
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Originally Posted By: justinchandler
.... I stocked 200 Northern LMB.
In Dec. of 2015, I started throwing rooster tails and caught a few bass ( I recorded catches of 10oz, 5oz, 8oz....with those lengths being 10in, 8.75in, 9in....not exactly what you would be expecting after 6 months in a loaded lake). ......(should have been in the 15"+ range and 2lbs. plus.) ......


You stocked Northern LMB. Do they thrive or just survive in a southern pond?


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: justinchandler
.... I stocked 200 Northern LMB.
In Dec. of 2015, I started throwing rooster tails and caught a few bass ( I recorded catches of 10oz, 5oz, 8oz....with those lengths being 10in, 8.75in, 9in....not exactly what you would be expecting after 6 months in a loaded lake). ......(should have been in the 15"+ range and 2lbs. plus.) ......


You stocked Northern LMB. Do they thrive or just survive in a southern pond?


They do great normally.

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Electroshocking doesn't bring up every fish, nor does every shocked fish float. Some sink.

I doubt you lost all 200 LMB, but do agree you should have seen more during the shocking.

Also, I don't think that 10" fish from fingerlings in 6 months is unreasonable, and 1 lb or 13" at a year old is not unrealistic.

If you were harvesting those 10" LMB, I think you were taking out your original stockers.

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Originally Posted By: Sunil
...
If you were harvesting those 10" LMB, I think you were taking out your original stockers.


My thought exactly


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Originally Posted By: Sunil
Electroshocking doesn't bring up every fish, nor does every shocked fish float. Some sink.

I doubt you lost all 200 LMB, but do agree you should have seen more during the shocking.

Also, I don't think that 10" fish from fingerlings in 6 months is unreasonable, and 1 lb or 13" at a year old is not unrealistic.

If you were harvesting those 10" LMB, I think you were taking out your original stockers.


Not sure that is the case. Remember, these fish are almost 2 years old now....NO WAY they should only be 10". Even back when under 10" fish were being harvested last year, they were 18 months old. Those fish should have been pushing 14" to 15". Again, a lake just down the road, double stocked like mine at the exact same time is averaging 3 lbs. fish. Biggest fish out of my lake has been 1lbs. 5oz. Something went terribly wrong.

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In Sept. '16, your LMB are about 15 months in-pond, right?

So, from fingerlings to maybe 13" in 15 months?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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If the 10 inch LMB were not original stockers then are you saying the original fingerlings grew large enough to spawn and that their spawn grew to 10 inches?

Last edited by Bill D.; 02/24/17 11:29 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Sunil
In Sept. '16, your LMB are about 15 months in-pond, right?

So, from fingerlings to maybe 13" in 15 months?


Thats correct.

The more surprising information we got from the shocking today was the lack of small bluegill. 2" and lower are literally non-existent.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
If the 10 inch LMB were not original stockers then are you saying the original fingerlings grew large enough to spawn and that the spawn grew to 10 inches?


Yes. I had a pretty decent bass spawn in 2016. I culled as many of them as I could when they got big enough to bite, but couldnt get them all. Those fish would have been some of the "under 10's" I started culling in the fall of last year.

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It seems like Scott69's results are somewhat similar to yours.

I'm really unsure if you had a LMB spawn or not. Many say that bass can spawn very early especially when at low quantities in a larger body of water.

What size were the 3,000 bluegill when you stocked them?


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That is some of my catch data put in to an excel graph I utilize. You can see things never got off on the right foot.

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Originally Posted By: Sunil
It seems like Scott69's results are somewhat similar to yours.

I'm really unsure if you had a LMB spawn or not. Many say that bass can spawn very early especially when at low quantities in a larger body of water.

What size were the 3,000 bluegill when you stocked them?


I know without a doubt a I had a spawn in 2016, as I saw the fingerlings swimming the banks. The 3000 bluegill were 1-3". Remember, those were stocked in Jan of 2015, 6 months prior to the fingerling bass.

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Interesting problem.

Offering up some numbers but I'm not a pro...

My understanding...

Recommended stocking of LMB is 50 to 100 per acre so for a 1.5 acre that is 150 so you were a little high at 200.

Recommended stocking of BG to LMB is 30:1. If that is correct, BG stocked would be 6000 for 200 LMB.

If those numbers are correct, your LMB may not have enough forage and will be under performing. I would expect to see a shortage of small BG.

Last edited by Bill D.; 02/24/17 11:52 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Interesting problem.

Offering up some numbers but I'm not a pro...

My understanding...

Recommended stocking of LMB is 50 to 100 per acre so for a 1.5 acre that is 150 so you were a little high at 200.

Recommended stocking of BG to LMB is 30:1. If that is correct, BG stocked would be 6000 for 200 LMB.

If those numbers are correct, your LMB may not have enough forage and will be under performing. I would expect to see a shortage of small BG.


Interesting numbers.

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I guess the bigger question now is what to do about it.

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It's great that you are keeping good records.

What all fish are taking pellets?

How clear is your water?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Here's one perspective....

If you did have a LMB spawn in Early Summer '16, and those 'new' LMB frye grew to 10" in about 8 months or so, than you have accomplished that growth cycle twice.

From June '15 to June-ish '16, the initial LMB stockers grew to at least 10-12" in about (12) months, and spawned.

From June-ish '16 to February '17, you're already at 10" and it's only been (8) months.

I'd want to see more before doing anything major.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
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Originally Posted By: Sunil
It's great that you are keeping good records.

What all fish are taking pellets?

How clear is your water?


I can't begin to tell you what this lake means to me, which is why I try to do everything exactly right.....and why this hurts like it does. The time and money I will never get back, which is fine by me if it allows my son to grow up having a blast with me. He is 3 years old, so I planned it where the lake would be fully sustained and rocking by the time he can hold his attention span long enough.

Bluegill, original Bass, and Tilapia were. Its getting close to time for us to pick the feeding back up....so I am interested to see what shows up and how big the are.

This time of year, it runs about 24" or so. Once warm enough for benefits of fertilizing I keep is 12"-18" with fertilizer.

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Hang in there. It might not be as bad as you think.

I added another thought right before your last post.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted By: Sunil
Here's one perspective....

If you did have a LMB spawn in Early Summer '16, and those 'new' LMB frye grew to 10" in about 8 months or so, than you have accomplished that growth cycle twice.

From June '15 to June-ish '16, the initial LMB stockers grew to at least 10-12" in about (12) months, and spawned.

From June-ish '16 to February '17, you're already at 10" and it's only been (8) months.

I'd want to see more before doing anything major.


What else would you want to see?

Im not going to kill the lake off, but it looks like I am going to be restocking bluegill (1" - 3") as well as some threadfin shad over the next few weeks.

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How about cormorants that hit the pond, and were gone before you knew it?

How about if a few catfish(or another stray predator fish) got in there and started wiping out that smaller size BG early on? I think I would fish with a small BG and see what you come up with.

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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
How about cormorants that hit the pond, and were gone before you knew it?

How about if a few catfish(or another stray predator fish) got in there and started wiping out that smaller size BG early on? I think I would fish with a small BG and see what you come up with.


Never seen a cormorant near our area. The shocking didnt show any signs of any unwanted predator fish, nor has my 2 years of fishing.

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If I understand it, your largest lmb are at 13" with low Rw? I think it was due to overstocking of lmb and then maybe a spawn. At this point, I think the TFS are a great idea if stocked in the 10,000 range. And your pond must be fertile to support the TFS. How many do u plan to stock and what size will be available? If lmb numbers are still high and you stock low TFS numbers or breeder size and low numbers, they may wind up just being a snack. TFS when stocked in the large numbers can be expensive. Don't miss understand, I love my TFS and I think they will help your pond. My point is I might want to take some of the pressure off the TFS till they get established or spawn in your pond (if stocked in low numbers). And the 1 to 3"bg may also be a snack, so I would add larger bg, ones that a 13" lmb can not eat. And Tp produce a lot of fry to feed the lmb so I would add them again this spring. They should take some of the pressure off the bg fry. It looks like from what I have read, your lmb numbers are still high?

Last edited by TGW1; 02/25/17 08:13 AM.

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i just looked back thru my old photos and checked dates. my bass were stocked may 26 2015 as fingerlings.on october 15 2015 i have a photo of an 8" bg and a 12" bass. that's really only 5 months. in the fall of 2016 i was catching some that had hit 15-16". the ones that take pellets are in a class of their own. look at my videos i posted last night of bass taking pellets. i havent tried to catch one on a hook yet.

another observation-my originals grew from fingerlin to 12" in less than 5 months. they had plenty of fhm and bg to eat. the bass spawned heavy in 2016 (sometime around may) i see those bass along the shore all the time and they only look 8" or so. my conclusion on that is the original got a huge kickstart from the fhm. i have a ton of bg ranging from tiny up to 3" around the shoreline, which the 8" bass are eating. i really think the fhm made the difference.

my bass are f1"s and yours are northen, not sure what differnce that can make.


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A lot of theories have been dismissed, Justin, what do you think happened to your fish?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: scott69
i just looked back thru my old photos and checked dates. my bass were stocked may 26 2015 as fingerlings.on october 15 2015 i have a photo of an 8" bg and a 12" bass. that's really only 5 months. in the fall of 2016 i was catching some that had hit 15-16". the ones that take pellets are in a class of their own. look at my videos i posted last night of bass taking pellets. i havent tried to catch one on a hook yet.

another observation-my originals grew from fingerlin to 12" in less than 5 months. they had plenty of fhm and bg to eat. the bass spawned heavy in 2016 (sometime around may) i see those bass along the shore all the time and they only look 8" or so. my conclusion on that is the original got a huge kickstart from the fhm. i have a ton of bg ranging from tiny up to 3" around the shoreline, which the 8" bass are eating. i really think the fhm made the difference.

my bass are f1"s and yours are northen, not sure what differnce that can make.


Yea, I stocked 4000 FHM's as well. I don't have baby bluegill around my lake in any sort of numbers. I saw a hand full of 2-3 inchers when shocking, but not many.

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
A lot of theories have been dismissed, Justin, what do you think happened to your fish?


Please don't mistake my answers to questions as theory dismissal. I am only providing information as I know it. In regards to what I think happened...I am at a point where I think too many bass and not enough bluegill were stocked, possibly coupled with something happening to lower my numbers of available forage for the fingerling bass when stocked (predator, bad spawns, etc.). Taking 2 years of information that I have, and getting various opinions, has me thinking that my fish that are around the 13" mark now are my originals, and they just didn't have the forage to grow.

Now the question is how to correct....and for that, I am torn in many directions.

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Originally Posted By: justinchandler
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
How about cormorants that hit the pond, and were gone before you knew it?

How about if a few catfish(or another stray predator fish) got in there and started wiping out that smaller size BG early on? I think I would fish with a small BG and see what you come up with.


Never seen a cormorant near our area. The shocking didnt show any signs of any unwanted predator fish, nor has my 2 years of fishing.


I didn't think we had cormorants either. Never seen one around in say a 45 year span. The wife went for a walk one day and she comes back and says there are a few in the pond. I say no-way. She whips out her camera and there they were. I spent most of my time the next few days around the pond discouraging any re-visiting.

I don't know, but I think a catfish or two would be hard to shock up. Anybody ever have them show up in a shock survey when they know they are in the pond?

Not saying these are/were your problems, just tossing the idea out there.

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for me, I would not expect to see a lot of 2 to 3" bg in a pond this time of year. If pond has a large number of lmb in it, and is the primary food for them at this time, I would think the lmb have been feeding on that size since maybe late November. I would think you will see some in May and maybe before.


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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Originally Posted By: justinchandler
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
How about cormorants that hit the pond, and were gone before you knew it?

How about if a few catfish(or another stray predator fish) got in there and started wiping out that smaller size BG early on? I think I would fish with a small BG and see what you come up with.


Never seen a cormorant near our area. The shocking didnt show any signs of any unwanted predator fish, nor has my 2 years of fishing.


I didn't think we had cormorants either. Never seen one around in say a 45 year span. The wife went for a walk one day and she comes back and says there are a few in the pond. I say no-way. She whips out her camera and there they were. I spent most of my time the next few days around the pond discouraging any re-visiting.

I don't know, but I think a catfish or two would be hard to shock up. Anybody ever have them show up in a shock survey when they know they are in the pond?

Not saying these are/were your problems, just tossing the idea out there.


Yea, I know an unwanted predator or 2 is not out of the question. It's a very plausible scenario that would explain a reduction in forage fish and spawning prior to fingerling LMB being stocked.

Does anyone think it could purely be that the numbers stocked were no good? Again....

It was:
3000 BG (Jan 2015)
4000 FHM (Jan 2015)
200 LMB (Jun 2015)
50lbs Tilapia (May 2016)

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Well, I have seen a few times here that an average ratio number for a trophy bass pond is 30BG:1 LMB So by that, your BG number should have been double? But I am wondering if the LMB was a bit too high to begin with for a 1.5 acre pond. I am by no means good with stocking plans, but perhaps others will comment on this possibility.

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Just a thought after reading this thread. What kind of structure do you have in the pond?

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I'm no expert, so enjoy the reading smile

- Did you count the bass fingerlings? Maybe there were only 150 or 175.

- How small were the bass fingerlings - 1", 2", 3" etc.? If too small they might have been dinner for other larger fish OR beat upon by larger fish but not eaten.

- Never discount birds of prey - hawks, falcons, etc. I've lost some bass in the shallows due to our gin clear water by hawks.

- No matter the current head count of bass, they are small for the duration they've been in the pond. Is this due to genetics, or due to lack of available forage, or due to expending too much energy to eat forage, or a combination?

- Given the shallow nature of your pond, can you run some nets and seine it pushing the fish to an area where you can better shock them or dip net them?


- I would hesitate before throwing more forage into the pond. You don't want stunted forage and a biomass too large for your pond.

- Can you pump the level down to better seine it to corral the fish to see what you really have?

- Do you have ample cover and structure for the bass to hang out and pick off forage, or do your bass have to cruise around for forage?

- If I had the means I would corral the fish to get as accurate of a count as I could, make sure I've got good structure and cover, and then based upon findings of fish count add forage and/or bass.

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Originally Posted By: Cray
Just a thought after reading this thread. What kind of structure do you have in the pond?


30-40 Christmas trees in various locations and numbers per pile, lots of man made pvc structures, cane structure, man made stump from old golf cart tires, large boulders, etc.

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Justin, the 13" LMB at 1# 5 oz isn't under weight, a 100% RW bass is 1 pound, 1.6 ounces. What chart are you using to calculate RW?

I agree that you might have been a bit heavy on the LMB numbers on initial stocking, but if you were managing for large BG then you weren't heavy. But, it sounds like you are wanting to focus on growing the bass. If that is the case, then I'd try to have 75-100 bass in 1.5 acres.

The initial FHM stocking was around 13 pounds, give or take.

If the bass and bluegill were about the same size at stocking, then all the bass had to eat were the FHM and other natural forage. The BG might not have been able to grow large enough to spawn the first year, so the LMB were set back in growth the first year. Were the LMB and panfish all the same size at stocking? Were the fish stocked pellet trained and were you feeding?

You aren't seeing any small BG now because the bass in there are eating them.

LMB target fish about 1/4-1/3 their length to eat.

I think it was a combination of too little forage of the correct size for the LMB to grow fast, AND an outside predator be it feathered or furred.

But that's all water under the bridge now, we need to come up with a plan to turn it around.

I would continue to yank bass out this year, of all sizes, and I would stock 500-1000 5"+ feed trained Coppernose early enough to allow them to spawn a few times. I would set up a automatic feeder and target feeding the panfish with a mixture of Optimal Bluegill Jr. and regular Optimal Bluegill food.

I would also look into adding more cover to the pond that was dense to provide escape refugees for the fingerling CNBG near their bedding areas. You want the cover to have spaces inside to allow the small fish to swim, but not large enough spaces to allow the bass to chase them inside the cover. Then after you have a forage base built up, next year slow down on culling bass.

To get each bass to put on one pound of weight, it has to eat roughly 10 pounds of fish, so by doing the math you can see that a tremendous amount of fish will be eaten by the bass per year.

If you are not seeing 2"-3" BG in the pond, then there are too many 8"-10" bass in the pond.


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If you want to remove a lot of bass relatively quickly, have the pond shocked right as the bass are spawning. Shock at night and don't fertilize the pond that year before shocking because you want to be able to see thru the water.

On fertilizing, I would try to keep the water clarity between 18"-36" due to the phytoplankton bloom. 12" clarity is a bit too dense and can limit O2 availability during the warmest part of the summer.

Are you aerating the pond?

I would think about getting a truck in there to add a bunch more Ag lime to the pond and surrounding area. The alkalinity reading is OK, but on the low side to what we are accustomed to seeing up here. I'd like to see you slightly ahead of the curve rather than you to play catch up if it drops too much more.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Justin, the 13" LMB at 1# 5 oz isn't under weight, a 100% RW bass is 1 pound, 1.6 ounces. What chart are you using to calculate RW?

I agree that you might have been a bit heavy on the LMB numbers on initial stocking, but if you were managing for large BG then you weren't heavy. But, it sounds like you are wanting to focus on growing the bass. If that is the case, then I'd try to have 75-100 bass in 1.5 acres.

The initial FHM stocking was around 13 pounds, give or take.

If the bass and bluegill were about the same size at stocking, then all the bass had to eat were the FHM and other natural forage. The BG might not have been able to grow large enough to spawn the first year, so the LMB were set back in growth the first year. Were the LMB and panfish all the same size at stocking? Were the fish stocked pellet trained and were you feeding?

You aren't seeing any small BG now because the bass in there are eating them.

LMB target fish about 1/4-1/3 their length to eat.

I think it was a combination of too little forage of the correct size for the LMB to grow fast, AND an outside predator be it feathered or furred.

But that's all water under the bridge now, we need to come up with a plan to turn it around.

I would continue to yank bass out this year, of all sizes, and I would stock 500-1000 5"+ feed trained Coppernose early enough to allow them to spawn a few times. I would set up a automatic feeder and target feeding the panfish with a mixture of Optimal Bluegill Jr. and regular Optimal Bluegill food.

I would also look into adding more cover to the pond that was dense to provide escape refugees for the fingerling CNBG near their bedding areas. You want the cover to have spaces inside to allow the small fish to swim, but not large enough spaces to allow the bass to chase them inside the cover. Then after you have a forage base built up, next year slow down on culling bass.

To get each bass to put on one pound of weight, it has to eat roughly 10 pounds of fish, so by doing the math you can see that a tremendous amount of fish will be eaten by the bass per year.

If you are not seeing 2"-3" BG in the pond, then there are too many 8"-10" bass in the pond.


I agree that that size fish is not "under weight", but it is below 100% RW. Also, it is the only fish that was close to 100% RW. We had a large bluegill spawn in the Spring of 2015....fingerlings were everywhere. The bream were 1-3" when stocked in January and the LMB were 1.5-2" when stocked on July 1st (just found my exact date). Both bass and bream were pellet trained, I did feed, and they ate like crazy!

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I would also try fishing with a 4" bluegill on a hook with a bobber and see what you catch.


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Justin, how are you calculating relative weight?

The way I calculate it, that 13", 1 pound 5 ounce fish had a relative weight of 119, so it isn't under weight.

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/...h-Condition.pdf

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Originally Posted By: esshup
Justin, how are you calculating relative weight?

The way I calculate it, that 13", 1 pound 5 ounce fish had a relative weight of 119, so it isn't under weight.

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/...h-Condition.pdf


Here is my chart....



My local fish farm says my original stock should be pushing 3 lbs. and the 15-16" range.

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Originally Posted By: justinchandler
My local fish farm says my original stock should be pushing 3 lbs. and the 15-16" range.


While that would be possible, I don't think that without supplemental feeding and stocking BG/CNBG/RES at a rate of 3,000 fish per 100 LMB per surface acre it would be possible.

And even if it was possible, I don't believe that level of production would be sustainable long-term.

Those 200 bass that you stocked would have had to consume approximately 6,000# of fish between June 2015 and Feb, 2017 to be pushing 3 pounds each, which means that your pond would have to produced well over 6.500 pounds of fish in 20 months, which is 325 pounds of fish per month.

I didn't see if you were feeding and aerating. Even with doing both of those, producing that kind of biomass takes intensive management. LMB producers here feel good if they produce 5,000 pounds of fish in 24 months (i.e. 208#/mo.), and that is with intensive feeding, aerating and management programs in place.


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Welcome smile


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: justinchandler
My local fish farm says my original stock should be pushing 3 lbs. and the 15-16" range.


While that would be possible, I don't think that without supplemental feeding and stocking BG/CNBG/RES at a rate of 3,000 fish per 100 LMB per surface acre it would be possible.

And even if it was possible, I don't believe that level of production would be sustainable long-term.

Those 200 bass that you stocked would have had to consume approximately 6,000# of fish between June 2015 and Feb, 2017 to be pushing 3 pounds each, which means that your pond would have to produced well over 6.500 pounds of fish in 20 months, which is 325 pounds of fish per month.

I didn't see if you were feeding and aerating. Even with doing both of those, producing that kind of biomass takes intensive management. LMB producers here feel good if they produce 5,000 pounds of fish in 24 months (i.e. 208#/mo.), and that is with intensive feeding, aerating and management programs in place.


I do feed, but do not aerate. I actually just went and tossed some in to see what would happen, and 6" CNBG went wild.

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Originally Posted By: justinchandler
...just went and tossed some in to see what would happen, and 6" CNBG went wild.


Justin,

If you have a lot of 6 inch CNBG I would consider that a very good thing. IMO then you probably have the CNBG brood stock you need at a size big enough to avoid predation by your LMB. I agree with what Tracy posted earlier, I think adding 1 to 3 inch CNBG would be a waste of money as they would quickly become bass snacks. IMO you also need to be careful to not push the pond beyond its carrying capacity. Aeration would help. Lots of discussion...have you started to form your go forward plan?

Bill D.


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: justinchandler
...just went and tossed some in to see what would happen, and 6" CNBG went wild.


Justin,

If you have a lot of 6 inch CNBG I would consider that a very good thing. IMO then you probably have the CNBG brood stock you need at a size big enough to avoid predation by your LMB. I agree with what Tracy posted earlier, I think adding 1 to 3 inch CNBG would be a waste of money as they would quickly become bass snacks. IMO you also need to be careful to not push the pond beyond its carrying capacity. Aeration would help. Lots of discussion...have you started to form your go forward plan?

Bill D.


I am working on that now. Here is one plan I had laid out, but now am unsure of...

- Harvest as many bass as possible, while keeping and tagging anything above 12" with a RW of 90% or better. I would like to get 120 fish tagged at some point (within a year or so) and cull everything else
- As soon as the water hits 60 and things seem stable, stocking 3000 FHM, 10,000 TFS, 500 3-6" CNBG, 50 lbs Tilapia ( I dont know abbr....lol).

This stocking should allow the pressure to be somewhat taken off of the BG spawn. Again, all of this would have to happen to where as soon as the stockings hit the water, they could start spawning. I would expect the FHM to be gone within a few weeks, the TFS to last 2 years (maybe), the 3-6" CNBG would establish good and spawn multiple times this year, and of course the tilapia breed like rabbits. I would plan to feed 4 lbs. daily.

Any thoughts?

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I would add more FHM's 50 lbs worth in your mix. They are cheep when talking forage fish and will feed the new lmb hatch, taking pressure off the bg. I have read where some trophy raisers will add FHM's every year. But of course u will have to thin the lmb herd. And keep the best of the best.


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Originally Posted By: TGW1
I would add more FHM's 50 lbs worth in your mix. They are cheep when talking forage fish and will feed the new lmb hatch, taking pressure off the bg. I have read where some trophy raisers will add FHM's every year. But of course u will have to thin the lmb herd. And keep the best of the best.


Not a bad idea. I think I can get them for about $30 per 1,000. Im not sure how much actual weight is in 1,000 though. It would definitely keep the LMB hatch off the bream for a while. Good idea, I may just do that.

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Im suppose to talk with the Fish Farm tomm. to discuss our path forward. Seeing all of the adult size bream yesterday made me feel better....but they need to have a fairly uninterrupted first few spawns....meaning I have got to get my current bass thinned and keyed in on other forage being FHM/TFS.

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justin, post some pictures of your pond.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted By: Sunil
justin, post some pictures of your pond.





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Nice!!

I can't seem to get the image to post in the thread.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
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Nevermind, I see you got it.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
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Ive added a good bit more cover than the aerial shows...that was what I put in as it was filling up. The aerial was with it about 50% full or so.

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When things dont go right, you can sit and be ticked or put the frustration to work. Added more cover and limed a bunch today. This lime comes from a stockpile of limestone dust that settles in a rock quarry nearby. Its dipped out and sold as a waste product....but it doesnt get any better than 100% lime for a lake. You can see the 35 gallon lime bomb that went off in the last pic!...lol






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Looks like the strategy will be harvesting as many bass between now and April, adding 10,000 FHM and 4,000 (1-3") CNBG, and transferring 175 8-10" CNBG from a friends lake (same stock of CNBG I stocked my lake with). The adult CNBG will be added between now and April and the FHM/CNBG will be added middle of April. Really hoping this will turn the lake around.

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Have you considering netting off a section of the pond where you can grow out those 4000 1-3" CNBG?

If you did so, then you could feed them Aquamax Grower, or similar, and get them to 5" pretty quick.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
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Originally Posted By: Sunil
Have you considering netting off a section of the pond where you can grow out those 4000 1-3" CNBG?

If you did so, then you could feed them Aquamax Grower, or similar, and get them to 5" pretty quick.


I thought I was crazy for thinking that this morning....I do have a really good spot to do this.

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What kind of netting would be best...any opinions?

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Any ideas on type of netting and surface area that would need to be blocked off to raise 1-3" fish to 3-5" fish?

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Justin,

IMO take a minute and recap where you are. What are your goals? What is the capacity of your pond? You don't have aeration and are planning on stocking and heavily pellet feeding a lot of fish. Is your current go forward plan within the capacity of the pond to support? Will you potentially be facing water quality issues in a few months if you follow your current plan? The forum is great on answering questions but your situation has a lot of variables to consider. Maybe time to hire a pro (and I don't mean the guy that sells you fish) for a consult?

Bill D.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Justin,

IMO take a minute and recap where you are. What are your goals? What is the capacity of your pond? You don't have aeration and are planning on stocking and heavily pellet feeding a lot of fish. Is your current go forward plan within the capacity of the pond to support? Will you potentially be facing water quality issues in a few months if you follow your current plan? The forum is great on answering questions but your situation has a lot of variables to consider. Maybe time to hire a pro (and I don't mean the guy that sells you fish) for a consult?

Bill D.


Ive been talking to our local State Fisheries Division Director about my situation. He said my situation is relatively simple. It was way over stocked with bass in the beginning, and potentially had something that hindered bluegill reproduction....but most likely just too many predators. He says to continue to remove bass as I have been (10 inches or less). He said that a lake like mine needs only bluegill to sustain the bass population, so focusing on getting as many adult CNBG is a close second to harvesting the smaller bass. He thinks the idea of raising smaller CNBG in a block net area could be very successful for a quick turnaround.

In regards to goals right now, I want to be able to catch 5lbs. or better fish fairly regularly.

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Another thing to consider is building a very small forage pond just above the current pond. This could give you a place to raise lots of fingerling BG to a size large enough to move to the main pond. Even a 1/20th acre pond either stocked with fingerlings or stocked with 5 adult BG pairs to produce fingerlings will produce a tremendous amount of BG if it is aereated, fed, and no predators present.

specialty ponds including forage pomds - lots of examples

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In a 1.5 acre pond, those 5lb or better fish may become pretty hookshy after being caught a few times.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
In a 1.5 acre pond, those 5lb or better fish may become pretty hookshy after being caught a few times.


Definitely not going to stop me from trying.

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Originally Posted By: justinchandler
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
In a 1.5 acre pond, those 5lb or better fish may become pretty hookshy after being caught a few times.


Definitely not going to stop me from trying.


I totally agree, just didn't know if you were aware of how carrying capacity or biomass might affect your goals.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Back to your netting question:
I can't help with the type of netting or where to get it, but something that you need to consider is how/where this would go. You don't want to dump the BG into a netted area that has bass in it. Sounds simple, but often overlooked. The net would have to hug the bottom very good. You probably would have to start along the shoreline and push the net out to force all fish from being inside the net. Why I mention this, if you don't have an appropriate place to do this, then why look into it further.


A lot of us have used that plastic mesh screen for fish cages. It's not very pliable for uneven terrain on a pond floor.

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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Back to your netting question:
I can't help with the type of netting or where to get it, but something that you need to consider is how/where this would go. You don't want to dump the BG into a netted area that has bass in it. Sounds simple, but often overlooked. The net would have to hug the bottom very good. You probably would have to start along the shoreline and push the net out to force all fish from being inside the net. Why I mention this, if you don't have an appropriate place to do this, then why look into it further.


A lot of us have used that plastic mesh screen for fish cages. It's not very pliable for uneven terrain on a pond floor.


Yes, obviously you would use the block netting to "reverse seine" the area. I have an area that is flat and fairly free of structure that I am looking at. Still trying to decide if its worth the effort.

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Hundreds of bream this size and bigger feeding on pellets this evening....makes me feel slightly better. Also saw some bigger bass.


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Can someone ID those beautiful fish? Very large, elongated ear tabs, very black, are they both male BG? I don't see CNBG features?

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They look like my CNBG.

Shape, white tipping on fins of upper fish, whitish lower jaw. Hard to tell if the forehead is copper color or not, but looks like it might be.

Last edited by snrub; 03/02/17 09:16 PM.

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They look like very healthy fish to me. Given that you know you have hundreds of CNBG already as brood fish that are larger than your current LMB mouthgap and that you are planning on stocking another 175 CNBG 8 to 10 inches, have you considered diversifying you forage base with maybe some crawfish instead of stocking another 4000 1 to 3 inch CNBG? The craws will still add biomass but maybe at least be utilizing a different portion of the food chain?

Last edited by Bill D.; 03/03/17 12:15 AM.

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With nice BG like in your picture, your time and money might be better spent creating some cover so the spawns this year you will have get a better chance at survival. Some dense cover targeted around and close to spawning beds and around the shallow edges.

A dozen pairs will spawn a gazillion youk sac fry, but if they have no place to hide get wiped out quickly before they get to a larger size.

I'm no expert, just what I would do in my pond if I wanted more BG survival.

Even temporary cedar trees laid out along the shore with ropes on that can easily be removed if a person doesn't want them there all the time.

Last edited by snrub; 03/03/17 07:28 AM.

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With broodstock like that, I think it's a matter of getting things back into a ratio of your goals ( big LMB). You need more BG in the right size to feed the larger LMB. I bet all the BG fry are getting eaten by the smaller bass before they have a chance to get bigger and that will feed your soon to be trophy fish. Add cover like snrub says to improve their chance. Target Feed the BG to get them to grow faster. Improve, if you can, more breeding areas for the BG to spawn. Yank out as many of the smaller size LMB until you start seeing a better diversity of sizes of BG. Possibly add another type of forage fish like Bill D mentions.

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I guess adding the additional cover in the proper areas along with a large amount of FHM (10,000 or so stocked in April), to take the pressure off the CNBG spawn, would be worth a shot before going crazy with 1-3" CNBG. How sustainable is a crawfish population? Hard to think of stocking something that can "up and walk out" of the lake.

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isn't there just about unlimited native crayfish (or red swamps even?) in local streams and ponds in Alabama? even if some decided to walk away, it seems it would be easy to source and stock your own crayfish.

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Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
isn't there just about unlimited native crayfish (or red swamps even?) in local streams and ponds in Alabama? even if some decided to walk away, it seems it would be easy to source and stock your own crayfish.


What I'm referring to is more so along the lines of being very easy prey. Once they feel the pressure from the bass, they can leave. Even if they didn't leave, what is the likelihood of sustaining a population of them?

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If you have cover, rocks, vegetation etc I would think they could escape predation and would choose cover IN your pond rather than escaping outside of your pond. Most folks start with a small starter supply of crayfish and many end up with way more than they know what to do with!

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Did a little work while the neighbors boys came and fished with shiners. Caught a couple of fish to cull, and a couple I tossed back that were 12"-1lbs (110% RW) and 13.25"-1lbs 1oz (90% RW).




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I also got these in the mail today. Time to track individual growth!

[img]http://i.imgur.com/u4Ptr4L.jpg?2[/img]

Last edited by justinchandler; 03/04/17 08:16 PM.
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I tagged 2 fish on 3/5 and recaught one of them on 3/9. Pretty neat seeing that yellow tag.

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Finally hit a fish over 100% RW. Caught on a shiner. 15" - 2lbs. I have now tagged 6 fish in a week. I have caught 4 of the 6 since the tagging, and two of them I caught 3 times since tagging. Not really sure what to make of it. Ive also culled about 3 lbs in 7 fish.

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Perhaps things weren't as bad off as you have first thought.

Good times!


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Here's where I am sitting for the first quarter of 2017...



I also saw a school of about 30 bluegill that were about 2" long up in the top of a tree earlier today....Im hoping its not as bad, but the relative weights are still mostly not anywhere close to what I want.

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Well today I dropped in 4,000 CNB (1-3") and 10,000 FHM (half rosy reds). Hoping the FHM's take the pressure off the CNB spawn. Going to be an interesting season for sure.

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...don't you just love "fish stocking day"??? I know I do...


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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
[... just didn't know if you were aware of how carrying capacity or biomass might affect your goals.


FWIW IMO with 100s of mature CNBG already and adding 4000 more capable of spawning in a few months, watch your water quality.


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Originally Posted By: justinchandler
I tagged 2 fish on 3/5 and recaught one of them on 3/9. Pretty neat seeing that yellow tag.


Justin, I suggest you release the ones that are tagged. Good aggressive genes need to be kept in the pond!


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Originally Posted By: anthropic
Originally Posted By: justinchandler
I tagged 2 fish on 3/5 and recaught one of them on 3/9. Pretty neat seeing that yellow tag.


Justin, I suggest you release the ones that are tagged. Good aggressive genes need to be kept in the pond!


I am the one who tagged them, so doesn't really make sense to harvest them after tagging. They were released.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
[... just didn't know if you were aware of how carrying capacity or biomass might affect your goals.


FWIW IMO with 100s of mature CNBG already and adding 4000 more capable of spawning in a few months, watch your water quality.


I imagine most of them will be eaten...just hoping they buy me enough time to allow for a good successful spawn. With the amount of bass that still need to be removed, there shouldn't be an issue with "under predation"

Last edited by justinchandler; 04/10/17 10:14 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Interesting problem.

Offering up some numbers but I'm not a pro...

My understanding...

Recommended stocking of LMB is 50 to 100 per acre so for a 1.5 acre that is 150 so you were a little high at 200.

Recommended stocking of BG to LMB is 30:1. If that is correct, BG stocked would be 6000 for 200 LMB.

If those numbers are correct, your LMB may not have enough forage and will be under performing. I would expect to see a shortage of small BG.


Bill...also don't forget your original stance....I under stocked bluegill.

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Originally Posted By: justinchandler
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Interesting problem.

Offering up some numbers but I'm not a pro...

My understanding...

Recommended stocking of LMB is 50 to 100 per acre so for a 1.5 acre that is 150 so you were a little high at 200.

Recommended stocking of BG to LMB is 30:1. If that is correct, BG stocked would be 6000 for 200 LMB.

If those numbers are correct, your LMB may not have enough forage and will be under performing. I would expect to see a shortage of small BG.


Bill...also don't forget your original stance....I under stocked bluegill.


Sorry for the misunderstanding. My concern in that post was that you might have too many LMB for the size of the pond and they might over eat the small BG forage, not that you had under stocked BG.

Once you posted that you had lots of 6 inch BG I posted:

Originally Posted By: Bill D.
They look like very healthy fish to me. Given that you know you have hundreds of CNBG already as brood fish that are larger than your current LMB mouthgap and that you are planning on stocking another 175 CNBG 8 to 10 inches, have you considered diversifying you forage base with maybe some crawfish instead of stocking another 4000 1 to 3 inch CNBG? The craws will still add biomass but maybe at least be utilizing a different portion of the food chain?


I think you are correct that a lot of the 4000 just stocked will go as snacks. Your LMB will probably spawn this year, if they haven't already, and any recruitment will add to the biomass as well. Lots of variables. Please don't think I am trying to "rain on your parade!" Just an observation that it seems like a lot of fish for that size pond. I would still watch water quality, especially in the hotter months.

Keep us posted,

Bill D.

Last edited by Bill D.; 04/11/17 06:53 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: justinchandler
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Interesting problem.

Offering up some numbers but I'm not a pro...

My understanding...

Recommended stocking of LMB is 50 to 100 per acre so for a 1.5 acre that is 150 so you were a little high at 200.

Recommended stocking of BG to LMB is 30:1. If that is correct, BG stocked would be 6000 for 200 LMB.

If those numbers are correct, your LMB may not have enough forage and will be under performing. I would expect to see a shortage of small BG.


Bill...also don't forget your original stance....I under stocked bluegill.


Sorry for the misunderstanding. My concern in that post was that you might have too many LMB for the size of the pond and they might over eat the small BG forage, not that you had under stocked BG.

Once you posted that you had lots of 6 inch BG I posted:

Originally Posted By: Bill D.
They look like very healthy fish to me. Given that you know you have hundreds of CNBG already as brood fish that are larger than your current LMB mouthgap and that you are planning on stocking another 175 CNBG 8 to 10 inches, have you considered diversifying you forage base with maybe some crawfish instead of stocking another 4000 1 to 3 inch CNBG? The craws will still add biomass but maybe at least be utilizing a different portion of the food chain?


I think you are correct that a lot of the 4000 just stocked will go as snacks. Your LMB will probably spawn this year, if they haven't already, and any recruitment will add to the biomass as well. Lots of variables. Please don't think I am trying to "rain on your parade!" Just an observation that it seems like a lot of fish for that size pond. I would still watch water quality, especially in the hotter months.

Keep us posted,

Bill D.


I understand what you mean, no worries. My LMB did spawn last year at multiple stages. So much so, that I am still catching some 4-6" bass, which tells me that those guys probably hatched out this past fall (and didn't have much to eat). I am hoping that I have removed a good portion of the original stock (maybe 50%)....so now I am harvesting only fish under 12 inches. I really expect to see an explosion in weights of the original stock this year. Who knows though, I may walk out one day and everything I have be floating. With that said, what are your recommendations for aeration at a reasonable price? I have power run down to the lake, so I am not really limited by anything (other than $).

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I missed that you were/are harvesting so many LMB. IMO definitely the right thing to do and should help with capacity concerns. Those remaining LMB should grow like crazy! smile

Check out the aeration threads for lots of advice that should provide some guidance.


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If I understand it correctly, here in E Texas, a natural pond will carry around 100 lbs of fish per acre. A fertilized pond will carry 300 lbs of fish per acre and a pond that is fertilized and aerated will carry 600 lbs pf fish per acre. The 600 lbs might be pushing things but that is what I understand how it is here. My aeration cost runs around $60 bucks per month for 3.44 acres plus the cost of the system. As per DD claim, ponds, corvets and women can be costly smile

Last edited by TGW1; 04/11/17 08:51 AM.

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Carrying capicity is highly varaible -- IT DEPENDS !

In unfirtile unfed southern waters 100 lbs is about right. However there are lots of naturally fertile ponds in the south. A fertile pond (natural or by fertilization)can carry 300-400 lbs of fish. A fertile pond with feeding can carry 600 lbs. In any agumented pond (fertile or fed) you have to watch water quality. Aeration is a method of incerasing carrying capicity (the waters ability to sustain O2 to the fish) but absent enough food will not materially effect the poundage of fish. Aeration can cause other chemical processes in the pond and may increase natural food sources. The ability of the water to carry fish biomass (it is a chemical system) is related to but not identical to the amount/poundage of fish in a pond.
















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Eric, I forgot the food lol, can't grow without food. That is why you make the big bucks. Thanks for keeping me covered here, and without pay!


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So my lake, at full pool, is 1.5 acres, with most depths around the 6' range on average. Obviously the bank areas are closer to the 2-3' range, and I also have some areas in the 8-10' range. I have a pretty large fluctuation from May to Oct (approx. 3' on average), with it reaching full pool again around the New Year. I am thinking surface aeration is probably my best bet, but that amp draw is pretty high. Any down side with going to a diffuser system in shallower water like I have? Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted By: justinchandler
So my lake, at full pool, is 1.5 acres, with most depths around the 6' range on average. Obviously the bank areas are closer to the 2-3' range, and I also have some areas in the 8-10' range. I have a pretty large fluctuation from May to Oct (approx. 3' on average), with it reaching full pool again around the New Year. I am thinking surface aeration is probably my best bet, but that amp draw is pretty high. Any down side with going to a diffuser system in shallower water like I have? Any thoughts?


Anybody?

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I'd use a bottom diffusion aeration system, in the deepest part of the pond. The shallower areas will take care of themselves providing you have a good phytoplankton bloom or submerged vegetation.


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