Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Pond Fail....Disgusted

Interesting numbers.

I guess the bigger question now is what to do about it.

It's great that you are keeping good records.

What all fish are taking pellets?

How clear is your water?

Here's one perspective....

If you did have a LMB spawn in Early Summer '16, and those 'new' LMB frye grew to 10" in about 8 months or so, than you have accomplished that growth cycle twice.

From June '15 to June-ish '16, the initial LMB stockers grew to at least 10-12" in about (12) months, and spawned.

From June-ish '16 to February '17, you're already at 10" and it's only been (8) months.

I'd want to see more before doing anything major.

I can't begin to tell you what this lake means to me, which is why I try to do everything exactly right.....and why this hurts like it does. The time and money I will never get back, which is fine by me if it allows my son to grow up having a blast with me. He is 3 years old, so I planned it where the lake would be fully sustained and rocking by the time he can hold his attention span long enough.

Bluegill, original Bass, and Tilapia were. Its getting close to time for us to pick the feeding back up....so I am interested to see what shows up and how big the are.

This time of year, it runs about 24" or so. Once warm enough for benefits of fertilizing I keep is 12"-18" with fertilizer.

Hang in there. It might not be as bad as you think.

I added another thought right before your last post.

What else would you want to see?

Im not going to kill the lake off, but it looks like I am going to be restocking bluegill (1" - 3") as well as some threadfin shad over the next few weeks.

How about cormorants that hit the pond, and were gone before you knew it?

How about if a few catfish(or another stray predator fish) got in there and started wiping out that smaller size BG early on? I think I would fish with a small BG and see what you come up with.

Never seen a cormorant near our area. The shocking didnt show any signs of any unwanted predator fish, nor has my 2 years of fishing.

If I understand it, your largest lmb are at 13" with low Rw? I think it was due to overstocking of lmb and then maybe a spawn. At this point, I think the TFS are a great idea if stocked in the 10,000 range. And your pond must be fertile to support the TFS. How many do u plan to stock and what size will be available? If lmb numbers are still high and you stock low TFS numbers or breeder size and low numbers, they may wind up just being a snack. TFS when stocked in the large numbers can be expensive. Don't miss understand, I love my TFS and I think they will help your pond. My point is I might want to take some of the pressure off the TFS till they get established or spawn in your pond (if stocked in low numbers). And the 1 to 3"bg may also be a snack, so I would add larger bg, ones that a 13" lmb can not eat. And Tp produce a lot of fry to feed the lmb so I would add them again this spring. They should take some of the pressure off the bg fry. It looks like from what I have read, your lmb numbers are still high?

i just looked back thru my old photos and checked dates. my bass were stocked may 26 2015 as fingerlings.on october 15 2015 i have a photo of an 8" bg and a 12" bass. that's really only 5 months. in the fall of 2016 i was catching some that had hit 15-16". the ones that take pellets are in a class of their own. look at my videos i posted last night of bass taking pellets. i havent tried to catch one on a hook yet.

another observation-my originals grew from fingerlin to 12" in less than 5 months. they had plenty of fhm and bg to eat. the bass spawned heavy in 2016 (sometime around may) i see those bass along the shore all the time and they only look 8" or so. my conclusion on that is the original got a huge kickstart from the fhm. i have a ton of bg ranging from tiny up to 3" around the shoreline, which the 8" bass are eating. i really think the fhm made the difference.

my bass are f1"s and yours are northen, not sure what differnce that can make.

A lot of theories have been dismissed, Justin, what do you think happened to your fish?

Yea, I stocked 4000 FHM's as well. I don't have baby bluegill around my lake in any sort of numbers. I saw a hand full of 2-3 inchers when shocking, but not many.

Please don't mistake my answers to questions as theory dismissal. I am only providing information as I know it. In regards to what I think happened...I am at a point where I think too many bass and not enough bluegill were stocked, possibly coupled with something happening to lower my numbers of available forage for the fingerling bass when stocked (predator, bad spawns, etc.). Taking 2 years of information that I have, and getting various opinions, has me thinking that my fish that are around the 13" mark now are my originals, and they just didn't have the forage to grow.

Now the question is how to correct....and for that, I am torn in many directions.

I didn't think we had cormorants either. Never seen one around in say a 45 year span. The wife went for a walk one day and she comes back and says there are a few in the pond. I say no-way. She whips out her camera and there they were. I spent most of my time the next few days around the pond discouraging any re-visiting.

I don't know, but I think a catfish or two would be hard to shock up. Anybody ever have them show up in a shock survey when they know they are in the pond?

Not saying these are/were your problems, just tossing the idea out there.

for me, I would not expect to see a lot of 2 to 3" bg in a pond this time of year. If pond has a large number of lmb in it, and is the primary food for them at this time, I would think the lmb have been feeding on that size since maybe late November. I would think you will see some in May and maybe before.

Yea, I know an unwanted predator or 2 is not out of the question. It's a very plausible scenario that would explain a reduction in forage fish and spawning prior to fingerling LMB being stocked.

Does anyone think it could purely be that the numbers stocked were no good? Again....

It was:
3000 BG (Jan 2015)
4000 FHM (Jan 2015)
200 LMB (Jun 2015)
50lbs Tilapia (May 2016)

Well, I have seen a few times here that an average ratio number for a trophy bass pond is 30BG:1 LMB So by that, your BG number should have been double? But I am wondering if the LMB was a bit too high to begin with for a 1.5 acre pond. I am by no means good with stocking plans, but perhaps others will comment on this possibility.

Just a thought after reading this thread. What kind of structure do you have in the pond?

I'm no expert, so enjoy the reading

- Did you count the bass fingerlings? Maybe there were only 150 or 175.

- How small were the bass fingerlings - 1", 2", 3" etc.? If too small they might have been dinner for other larger fish OR beat upon by larger fish but not eaten.

- Never discount birds of prey - hawks, falcons, etc. I've lost some bass in the shallows due to our gin clear water by hawks.

- No matter the current head count of bass, they are small for the duration they've been in the pond. Is this due to genetics, or due to lack of available forage, or due to expending too much energy to eat forage, or a combination?

- Given the shallow nature of your pond, can you run some nets and seine it pushing the fish to an area where you can better shock them or dip net them?


- I would hesitate before throwing more forage into the pond. You don't want stunted forage and a biomass too large for your pond.

- Can you pump the level down to better seine it to corral the fish to see what you really have?

- Do you have ample cover and structure for the bass to hang out and pick off forage, or do your bass have to cruise around for forage?

- If I had the means I would corral the fish to get as accurate of a count as I could, make sure I've got good structure and cover, and then based upon findings of fish count add forage and/or bass.

30-40 Christmas trees in various locations and numbers per pile, lots of man made pvc structures, cane structure, man made stump from old golf cart tires, large boulders, etc.

Justin, the 13" LMB at 1# 5 oz isn't under weight, a 100% RW bass is 1 pound, 1.6 ounces. What chart are you using to calculate RW?

I agree that you might have been a bit heavy on the LMB numbers on initial stocking, but if you were managing for large BG then you weren't heavy. But, it sounds like you are wanting to focus on growing the bass. If that is the case, then I'd try to have 75-100 bass in 1.5 acres.

The initial FHM stocking was around 13 pounds, give or take.

If the bass and bluegill were about the same size at stocking, then all the bass had to eat were the FHM and other natural forage. The BG might not have been able to grow large enough to spawn the first year, so the LMB were set back in growth the first year. Were the LMB and panfish all the same size at stocking? Were the fish stocked pellet trained and were you feeding?

You aren't seeing any small BG now because the bass in there are eating them.

LMB target fish about 1/4-1/3 their length to eat.

I think it was a combination of too little forage of the correct size for the LMB to grow fast, AND an outside predator be it feathered or furred.

But that's all water under the bridge now, we need to come up with a plan to turn it around.

I would continue to yank bass out this year, of all sizes, and I would stock 500-1000 5"+ feed trained Coppernose early enough to allow them to spawn a few times. I would set up a automatic feeder and target feeding the panfish with a mixture of Optimal Bluegill Jr. and regular Optimal Bluegill food.

I would also look into adding more cover to the pond that was dense to provide escape refugees for the fingerling CNBG near their bedding areas. You want the cover to have spaces inside to allow the small fish to swim, but not large enough spaces to allow the bass to chase them inside the cover. Then after you have a forage base built up, next year slow down on culling bass.

To get each bass to put on one pound of weight, it has to eat roughly 10 pounds of fish, so by doing the math you can see that a tremendous amount of fish will be eaten by the bass per year.

If you are not seeing 2"-3" BG in the pond, then there are too many 8"-10" bass in the pond.

If you want to remove a lot of bass relatively quickly, have the pond shocked right as the bass are spawning. Shock at night and don't fertilize the pond that year before shocking because you want to be able to see thru the water.

On fertilizing, I would try to keep the water clarity between 18"-36" due to the phytoplankton bloom. 12" clarity is a bit too dense and can limit O2 availability during the warmest part of the summer.

Are you aerating the pond?

I would think about getting a truck in there to add a bunch more Ag lime to the pond and surrounding area. The alkalinity reading is OK, but on the low side to what we are accustomed to seeing up here. I'd like to see you slightly ahead of the curve rather than you to play catch up if it drops too much more.

I agree that that size fish is not "under weight", but it is below 100% RW. Also, it is the only fish that was close to 100% RW. We had a large bluegill spawn in the Spring of 2015....fingerlings were everywhere. The bream were 1-3" when stocked in January and the LMB were 1.5-2" when stocked on July 1st (just found my exact date). Both bass and bream were pellet trained, I did feed, and they ate like crazy!

I would also try fishing with a 4" bluegill on a hook with a bobber and see what you catch.