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#255372 - 04/19/11 01:04 PM LMB Culling & Management
Bill Cody Offline
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Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12446
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Here are some links to previous discussions about largemouth bass (LMB) with an emphasis on the problem of overcrowded bass and managing bass numbers. Other related newer and older discussions will be added as they occur. Thanks for helping.

First thing for you I have added a short section about how to best handle large bass that you will hopefully catch from your pond. Feed them, handle them properly, and they will grow into trophies.

Keep in mind that as bass get larger you SHOULD NOT hold them solely by the jaw because their full weight can disjoint or damage the mandible hinges of the jaw. A big bass with a broken or damaged jaw is almost always after released a later mortality due to being hampered in capturing food. No use injuring or killing your biggest bass needlessly. Treat your biggest bass as a valuable resource. Improper handling will result in premature death of the numbers of bigger bass per acre. Also do your very best to not let the bass lie on the ground. This wipes the slime layer off their body and exposes that area for fungus growth.

Previous discussions of correct way to handle large bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=402580

Examples of Bad Handling
http://www.laperlaranchresort.com/fishing1.html

Examples of correctly holding big bass to reduce broken jaw problems
http://bigbluegill.com/forum/topics/correct-way-to-hold-larger-bass?commentId=2036984%3AComment%3A589403&xg_source=activity


Bob Lusk Says About Handling Trophy Fish.
Do Not, under any circumstances, hold a true trophy bass by its lower jaw without supporting its body with your other hand under the rear part of its stomach. By no means, with any bass of any size, ever pull back on the jaw of your fish, as it can become quickly fractured or dislocated. That's usually a death sentence to a big fish. If you don't believe me, ask those who run the ShareLunker program at the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department. Several great specimens were donated to that program last year to spawn and help stock public lakes around the state. But, those gorgeous girls didn't get past angler handling to do what they could do to help many other lakes. They died from bad handling.
From: https://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/hold-a-fish.html


Why the first pond stocking of bigger bass from another pond or fish farm may not be a good idea. Plus numerous other items, ideas, and multiple discussions for growing big bass. Consider this as homework and more education.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=370018#Post370018

Skinny Bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post240734

Length & Weight
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=231584#Post231584

http://lakework.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Largemouth-Bass-Relative-Weight-Index.pdf

Check to see if your bass are growing well and if there is enough food and right size of foods for them to stay fat, plus examples of F1 bass.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404566#Post404566

Estimating weight from length
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=24156#Post24156

Thread that explains the Proper way to hold big bass for removing hooks or photos
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=412230#Post412230

Largemouth Bass (LMB) Mouth Gape Data
See post and link to info further below in the thread.

Keeping Records & Weighing
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=208600#Post208600

Example of Jakeb's good monitoring and management to grow 10 lb bass:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=405499#Post405499

Removal discussion
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=224725#Post224725

Removal numbers
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=208600#Post208600

Bass size to remove
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149928#Post149928

Remove bass before the spawn
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=153675#Post153675

BG removal when managing for large bass?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=143309#Post143309

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=143309#Post143309

Catching smaller bass ideas:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=208600#Post208600

Skinny vs stunted bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=208600#Post208600

Skinny Bass solution
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=192549#Post192549

Using slow Growing or Stunted Bass For Restocking
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=458695#Post458695

Small bass – evaluating, removal, and forage
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=186624#Post186624

Results of Five Years of Removing Bass to Improve Size Structure
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=469596&page=1

Bass not growing well
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=370024#Post370024

Stunted bass and BG balance
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=175958#Post175958

Too many first spawn of bass lack of BG
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=410122#Post410122

Small and large bass, no medium bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=156282#Post156282

Average LMB size change and PBoss articles to read about overpopulation
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255343#Post255343

Tagging Bass and Other Fish
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=442013#Post442013

Evaluating catch data from Tagged Bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post248457

How to recognize individual bass by using body markings.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=374549&#Post374549

Wanting to grow big bass in a new 5 ac northern pond (Illinois).
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=308836

Catching inconsistent sizes of bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=406997#Post406997

Stocking bass and bluegill: north vs south:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=413792#Post413792

Discussion of bluegill hybrids (intergrades), RES, and growth rates of bass and forms of bluegill.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=432446&page=1


Tiger Bass F1's
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=274109


Edited by Bill Cody (04/14/17 09:24 PM)
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#255392 - 04/19/11 03:25 PM Re: LMB Culling & Management [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12446
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
A note by Dr. Willis about relative weight:
Folks -- just one caution on interpreting these "standard weights" that we use in the American Fisheries Society reference books.

These "standards" are based on what we call the "75th percentile." That means, for any fish species, for its entire geographic range, for all times of year, 75% of the fish will weight LESS than the standard, and only 25% of the fish will weigh more.

Thus, this value is a little deceiving. We typically calculate relative weight values (actual weight divided by the standard weight for a fish of that length, and then multiplied by 100). Many people think that a Wr of 100 is necessary for fish to be in good condition. In reality, any time you hit about 90 or above, your fish are average or above average. So, don't set an unrealistic goal! 90 is often quite good.

Hope this helps,
Dave Willis

Removing Bass Northern Pond
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=20045#Post20045

More On Removing LMB
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21180#Post21180

Overcrowding in MS
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=19875#Post19875

Over crowding in CA
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=153675#Post153675

Culling in PA after stocking 10” LMB & shiners
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=20722#Post20722

Bass Heavy vs Stunting
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21106#Post21106

Remove Large Bass?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=20551#Post20551

Removing slot length bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=145580&page=1

Questions and Study on angling, catch and recapture
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=306302#Post306302

Male vs Female LMB Recognizing
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=441919#Post441919
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255390#Post255390
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21595#Post21595

Removing LMB: angling vs electrofishing
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=22021#Post22021

Harvest Plan for big LMB in New Waters
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148095#Post148095

What to do with harvested LMB?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=22401#Post22401

Death rate in LMB – mortality
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=22339#Post22339

LMB Life Span
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96912#Post96912
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=22223#Post22223
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=461456&#Post461456

Aging Bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=130599#Post130599

LMB Genetics
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=23352#Post23352
Multiple strains - mortality rates - trophies
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=401117#Post401117

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404369&page=1

F1 vs Flordia Strain Bass Pros & Cons discussion
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=474327#Post474327


Growth After stunting
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=23698#Post23698

When to stop harvesting LMB
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=23958#Post23958

LMB Growth north vs south
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=24218#Post24218

Average growth for both sexes of bass in Texas are:
Age I 8 inches, Age II 12 inches, Age III 15 inches, Age IV 17 inches, Age V 18 inches.
From
http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/10/...mendations-.pdf


Good Growth for LMB?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=125384#Post125384

Growth of pellet eating bass Alabama
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=465588#Post465588

Forage, optimum stockers/ac, best growth - Florida, Texas
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=461292#Post461292
LMB genetics here in Texas are found to be some of the best. Overtons fisheries here comes to mind. I have seen 2.9 lb growth in my pond in 10 months here starting with a 2 or 3" lmb fingerlings. Five lbs in less than 3 years is doable here.

Optimum LMB Growth North - Wisconsin 4" 2 lb/yr at 16"
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=454741#Post454741

More about bass growth questions
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=370091#Post370091

Bass relative weight (Wr) weight changes
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112084#Post112084

Wr or Rw Chart
http://lakework.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Largemouth-Bass-Relative-Weight-Index.pdf

LMB relative weight Wr and thin bass pics
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=107618#Post107618

Food needed for growth
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=130299#Post130299

How many fish-bluegill will bass eat per day?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=429238#Post429238

Link from discussion above to the amount of food needed per day by large bass.
http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/trophy_bass_prey.html

There should be some sort of conversion factor for how many pounds of fish need to be eaten per pound of predator for that predator to grow normally. It would take a better 'bean counter' than me to figure that one out.

I do know that many LMB can grow 1 lb per year (maybe more weight gain in the south with a longer growing season). This equates to about 10 lbs of live meat (bugs, crayfish, fish, amphibians and birds) of some sort per year per fish. If we use a 16" lmb (2.25 lb std wt) as an example this means it could eat around 226 to 453 four inch BG (10-20g ea) to get 10 lbs of BG. More individuals would be consumed if BG were smaller and if the BG were 5" fewer (66). If we had 30 16" lmb in an acre and each was eating 350 BG per year this means they are consuming around 10,000 4" BG per year. If that 10 lbs consumed fish were 2.7" FHM this would for 30 LMB consumers equate to around 44,100 FHM. See now why LMB ponds are often low on forage fish???? Plus as you should be learning by now you do not want your largest or even large bass eating or thriving on FHM or they if they do they will not be gaining weight. Keep reading for more information and answers.

The example above of 30 16" LMB has 67.5 bass pounds per acre - reasonable amount. If each of those bass ate 10 lbs of all fish this is 300 lbs of forage, about all the forage fish weight that would normally live in one acre. Normally I think one would want the predators to eat no more than 60-72% of the existing forage fish stock each year. You need a significant amount of breeder forage fish to carry over to the next spawning year to again create you a forage surplus. In reality there are in natural pond food systems, rarely 30 16"+ bass per acre; too many predators for what that pond can naturally produce. Fish ponds are communities generally comprised of fish of various sizes; many more little ones than big ones. Just a few big predators per acre at the top. I don't think all of those 30 16" bass will eat 10 lbs of forage. Some of the bass may just maintain or slightly increase their weight whereas the most aggressive ones may eat a few more fish than 10 lbs and the majority consume weights somewhere in between 2 to 10 lbs. We should probably cull those slow growing bass. In addition a certain percent of the annual diet will be items other than BG such as other bass, and various vulnerable meat items that live in or around the pond. Diversity of forage items is a key item in well managed ponds.

Feeding Pellets to LMB
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=19991#Post19991

Using only female bass to produce primarily all big LMbass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=387220#Post387220






Edited by Bill Cody (06/17/17 08:38 AM)
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Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
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#306524 - 09/14/12 11:27 AM Re: LMB Culling & Management [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Cody Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12446
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Largemouth Catchability - Hook Smart - Hook Shy
Fish behavior patterns do exist and IMO their behaviorj is fairly complex. They respond to external stimuli. But can they learn from past experience or from watching other bass/fish? Many think this is true.

Bass and other fish IMO and experience do have the ability to learn from their experiences and a percentage of every year class are what I will call dumb and smart. Some people will call this conditioning not learning. Some can be caught numerous times. Some can only be caught one time or a few times during their life span. Some people have claimed that a few bass from every spawn will never bite a hook. It was speculated in the study that these elusive bass "leared" or were conditioned by watching other fish get caught.

The "dumb" ones could be classed or called overly aggressive, fast growers and willing to bite most any lure put in front of them. Studies have shown that willingness of bass to bite lures is an inherited trait. Some may not be fast growers but they are still vulnerable to recapture and they are just slow to learn about lures and the negative experience of "jaw jerking" from anglers. Some bass/fish in heavily fish water are very hard to catch no matter what lure is used. When one repetedly uses the same lure in the same small pond it becomes hard and harder catch fish. Put on a new lure and something the fish have not seen the catch rate often increases. What does this say about those fish in the pond?

Hook Shy Topics:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=89680&page=1

Overfishing And Hook Shy Bass with Angling Hints from Basslover
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=465502#Post465502

Over fishing vs over harvest
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21209#Post21209

Too Much Fishing Pressure?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21676#Post21676

Improving LMB catachability
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=22189#Post22189

Catchability of F1 bass and other bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=58233&page=2

Northern Bass Inferior? Maybe not and Catchability of Both Strains.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=487836&#Post487836

LMB Catchability article in PBoss Mag - Willis & Cody
http://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/outreach/pond...ar-Apr-2006.pdf

Several scientific studies have examined this topic. Below are links for more reading about this topic.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=306520#Post306520

Hook Shy Fish in Fee Fishing Operations
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/129/

Prey Selection - Learning vs Conditioning by LMB
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=279559&page=1

Are Bass Smart? PBoss article by Ralph Manns
http://www.pondboss.com/free_articles.asp?id=28&p=2

Feeding Pellets, Angling & Catchability
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=291973&page=1

Pellet Fed and Hook Shy
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=150311

Reducing hook shy bass - Options
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=395378#Post395378

Basslover tells how he catches hook shy bass:
Member – Basslover says: In very clear water I'm landing bass on night crawlers and shiners the overwhelming majority of the time. I have some success with artificial lures, including; worms, spinnerbaits, crankbaits, jerkbaits, and poppers/plugs/jitterbugs. Hard to beat the real thing though.

I really look to see what is in the water and then use it, or find something that resembles it. I vary the speed and technique of my retrieval as well. I'm not the type that repeats the same cast to the same spot with same retrieval and technique. Slow, super slow, medium, fast. Steady, stop-n-go, jerk, pull. Etc. Aside from live bait topwater lures are my go to and that usually produces.

I haven't a problem yet with hook shy. My bass in my pond that is very clear water are hesitant at times. They can see the hook, sometimes they nudge the worm around and if they identify the hook no dice. If they see you it becomes much more difficult to induce a strike. So you become excellent at long casts, hiding, and patience. I also sometimes chum the water - I toss in worms or shiners and since they eat without consequence I then can entice a strike by tossing one in with a hook. I also chum the water at times for the bluegills. I find the feeding frenzy of the bluegills gets the bass active and they want in. So in the middle of this I will then target a bass and usually land one.
I'll throw in mealworms and small red wigglers to stir up the panfish. All that feeding gets my bass aggressive. Then I'll toss in a large nightcrawler on a hook and often land a bass. But I also throw in many non-hooked nightcrawlers (or shiners when fishing with them) so the bass eat without being hooked. And I also spend time in and around the pond without doing any fishing.


Edited by Bill Cody (03/28/18 03:06 PM)
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#350750 - 09/12/13 09:59 PM Re: LMB Culling & Management [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Cody Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12446
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Here is a good example of how removing bass and keeping track of the catches using relative weight can improve an older pond's LMbass fishery.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=350707&page=1



Edited by Bill Cody (05/22/14 07:20 PM)
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#367432 - 02/26/14 02:33 PM Re: LMB Culling & Management [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Cody Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12446
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
More LM bass threads:
Expected growth rates:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=367415#Post367415

Here is some information from Texas A&M Extension about using pellet trained bass.
Stocking pellet-trained largemouth bass is another area of consideration. In monoculture of even sized fish, largemouth bass trained to accept manufactured diets is quite effective for producing fast growing individuals. This method is also used to produce fingerlings, or juveniles, for sale as pond stockers. Often times, pellet trained largemouth bass fingerlings are sold at a premium, costing as must as two times more than un-trained largemouth bass fingerlings. There are advantages and disadvantages to purchasing pellet-trained largemouth bass for stocking. The advantages are faster growth, earlier maturation, and reduced loss to predation. Pellet-trained largemouth bass will grow faster (at first anyway) because they do not have to work as hard to obtain food and food is always available, if fed regularly. This increased growth and subsequent size means the bass will also mature earlier, sometimes spawning in the first year allowing for faster population establishment of the pond. The larger size also reduces predation, as smaller largemouth bass are more vulnerable to predation than larger individuals. The disadvantages are the fingerling cost, feed costs, reversion to piscivory (eating fish), and no generational effects. The costs of stocking 50 2-4″ un-trained, northern sub-species largemouth bass per acre typically costs between $57.50 and $82.50, while the costs for stocking 50 2-4″ pellet-trained, northern sub-species largemouth bass per acre typically runs from $92.50 to $132.50. Stocking larger ponds with pellet-trained largemouth bass can quickly become cost intensive compared to un-trained fingerlings. Most commonly available pond diets are channel catfish diets that contain between 28 and 32% protein. While these diets are fine for catfish, bluegill, redear sunfish, and baitfish, largemouth bass require higher protein diets (>40%, with 42-48% being advantageous). Therefore the diet costs are much greater for largemouth bass diets ($18 to $25 per 50 lb bag) compared to normal pond fish diets ($10 to $13 per 50 lb bag). Pellet-trained largemouth bass also have a tendency to revert to piscivory (eating fish) when baitfish such as bluegill, redear sunfish, and fathead minnows are present. The larger they become, the more likely they are to abandon eating pellets altogether, instinct simply takes over. Using typical, lower-protein pond fish diets also means that some of their protein requirement may go unfulfilled, so they must revert to eating fish to meet their protein demands. The final disadvantage is that you only get one generation out of pellet-trained largemouth bass. Largemouth bass must be “force-trained” to accept pellets in a hatchery in the absence of all other food. After these pellet trained fish spawn, their offspring do not know that they are “supposed” to be pellet trained or that they came from pellet-trained parents. They naturally and instinctively begin to prey on living food items in the pond and continue to do so for their entire life. Ergo you only get one generation, the one that you initially stocked, of pellet-trained largemouth bass. Continuing to feed pellets is still beneficial as the forage species in the pond will continue to eat the pellets and these in turn feed your largemouth bass.
REeference:
http://fisheries.tamu.edu/pond-management/species/largemouth-bass/

Good Growth of LMB & BG in Indiana
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=441965#Post441965


Edited by Bill Cody (03/27/16 05:20 PM)
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#377221 - 05/22/14 07:21 PM Re: LMB Culling & Management [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12446
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Here is a thread on some thoughts on culling bass and how many to remove each year.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=377220#Post377220
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#395388 - 12/21/14 03:19 PM Re: LMB Culling & Management [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Cody Offline
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Introducing Camelot Bell Largemouth Bass renamed Lone Star Legacy Bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php
ubb=showflat&Number=288833

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=373252

Quote from Todd Overton:
""The lake at Camelot Bell was first stocked with 250 jumper Florida bass, imported from Florida from a specific source. Mike has a great lake and the conditions are perfect for trophy bass production. In addition, Mike Frazier has been harvesting bass with aggressive discretion. At this time Mike actively harvests ALL fish caught that are less than 5-6lbs, sometimes even larger fish. I can vouch for the genetics, as I have been in the business for 15 years now and had never laid my eyes on largemouth bass that have the consistent physical characteristics of those at Camelot Bell. In a new lake it would be best to stock with fingerlings instead of adults, IMO. Since the age of adult bass stockers is unknown, you will have more potential by starting with age 0 fingerlings."

Performance of Camelot Bell Largemouth Bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=377877#Post377877

Two year old broodstock of the CB largemouth. These bass were fingerlings in 2012.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=405858#Post405858


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=405855#Post405855

Lone Star Legacy Breeders 2016
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=447735#Post447735



Edited by Bill Cody (06/17/17 08:35 AM)
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#406065 - 03/31/15 09:42 AM Re: LMB Culling & Management [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Cody Offline
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The link takes you to a thread that has the data of mouth gape sizes for largemouth bass (LMB) that have been measured by PB Forum members.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=406060&page=1

Here is a link from Greg Grimes (Aquatic Environmental Services) an expert in growing trophy largemouth bass for lessons of what it takes to grow trophy bass for a new pond/lake stocking. Proper planning and management are a very important factors weather you are growing trophy fish or prize livestock.
http://lakework.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/sdafs-trophy-lmb.pdf

Trophy Bass in Small Ponds
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=425621#Post425621

Big bass of 6 to 8 lbs in 3-4 ac?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=486473#Post486473

Example of growing bigger LM bass in one acre pond.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=476342#Post476342

Growing big bass in small ponds. Can you use crappie to do it?

Plus calculating the dollar value of large bass.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=433439#Post433439

Proper Handing of Large Bass to Prevent Jaw Damage
Keep in mind that as these bass get larger you should not hold them solely by the jaw because the full weight can disjoint or damage the mandible hinges of the jaw. A big bass with a broken or damaged jaw is almost always a later mortality. No use injuring are killing your biggest bass. Improper handling will result in premature death of the numbers of bigger bass per acre.

Previous discussions of correct way to handle large bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=402580

Examples of Bad Handling
http://www.laperlaranchresort.com/fishing1.html

Examples of correctly holding big bass to reduce broken jaw problems
http://bigbluegill.com/forum/topics/correct-way-to-hold-larger-bass?commentId=2036984%3AComment%3A589403&xg_source=activity


Bob Lusk Says About Handling Trophy Fish.
Do Not, under any circumstances, hold a true trophy bass by its lower jaw without supporting its body with your other hand under the rear part of its stomach. By no means, with any bass of any size, ever pull back on the jaw of your fish, as it can become quickly fractured or dislocated. That's usually a death sentence to a big fish. If you don't believe me, ask those who run the ShareLunker program at the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department. Several great specimens were donated to that program last year to spawn and help stock public lakes around the state. But, those gorgeous girls didn't get past angler handling to do what they could do to help many other lakes. They died from bad handling.
From: https://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/hold-a-fish.html


Gape study
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 120:500-508, 1991
© Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 1991
Experimental Analysis of Prey Selection by Largemouth Bass:
Role of Predator Mouth Width and Prey Body Depth
K. DAVID HAMBRIGHT
Section of Ecology and Systematic and the Ecosystems Research Center Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853, USA
Abstract.—Piscivorous fish are size-selective predators. Although sizes of prey selectively ingested by piscivores traditionally have been measured in terms of prey length relative to predator
length, the relationship between prey body depth (measured dorsoventrally) and piscivore mouth gape may be a more appropriate measure of prey size selection. In 2-d feeding trials with three
sizes of largemouth bass Micropterus salmoides, I offered various sizes of shallow-bodied fathead minnows Pimephales promelas and deep-bodied pumpkinseeds Lepomis gibbosus in assemblages of one or both species. All sizes of predators preferred pumpkinseeds with body depths well below the maximum size ingestible. Small predators also preferred fathead minnows with body depths below the maximum size ingestible, whereas intermediate and large predators selectively ingested the largest fathead minnows offered. Largemouth bass never ingested prey of body depth greater than their own external mouth width. Although lengths of selectively ingested fathead minnows and pumpkinseeds differed, largemouth bass showed highest preferences for prey of similar body depths regardless of taxonomic identity. These results suggest that, in addition to setting constraints on maximum sizes of prey that can be ingested by piscivores, the relationship between prey body
depth and piscivore mouth gape may also be important in selection of prey within the range of ingestible sizes. Therefore, body depth may be more useful than the traditional measure of prey length as a common measure for examining prey selection by gape-limited piscivores over a wide array of prey species.

Piscivorous fish are gape-limited predators,consuming only prey they can swallow whole. Because prey are generally swallowed head- or tailfirst, their body depth (measured dorsoventrally) relative to the size of a piscivore's mouth determines whether they can be ingested (Swingle 195Q; Lawrence 1958; Werner 1977; Tonn and Paszkowski 1986). Thus, in any particular habitat prey with boidy depths greater than the largest piscivore gape are invulnerable to ingestion. The vulnerability of prey within the range of ingestible sizes is determined by other factors such as size distributions
of piscivores and prey, prey encounter rates with piscivores, and predator-avoidance behaviors of prey (Wahl and Stein 1988; Hambright etal., in press).

Prey-selection behavior of piscivores also influences the vulnerability of prey. Optimal foraging theory postulates that predators maximize the ratio between the benefits gained and the costs incurred in obtaining prey. Obviously, the benefits gained increase as a function of prey size, but cost, in particular that due to handling time, also increases rapidly with prey size (Werner 1974). Hoyle and Keast (1987,1988) demonstrated that, for two
piscivores (largemouth bass Micropterus salmoides and grass pickerel Esox americanus), the weight-adjusted handling time for prey of equivalent lengths varied.


TABLE 3.—Predicted and actual maximum body depths (standard lengths in parentheses) of fathead minnows and pumpkinseeds ingested by small, intermediate, and large largemouth bass. Predicted values are based on the mean external mouth widths of the predators. Prey standard lengths were calculated with equations (1) and (2) in
the text by substituting the mean predator mouth width for prey body depth. Asterisks indicate prey sizes exceeded the naturally occurring size ranges listed in Carlander (1969, 1977).
Largemouth bass group
Small Intermediate Large
Mean external
mouth width
(mm)
14.6
25.6
34.2
Maximum size of
fathead minnow (mm)
Predicted
14.6
(59.8)
25.6
(99.2*)
34.2
(130.0*)
Ingested
13.3
(55)
13.3
(55)
13.3
(55)
Maximum size of pumpkinseed (mm)
Predicted
14.6
(39.6)
25.6
(62.3)
34.2
(80.9)
Ingested
13.0
(35)
22.2
(55)
31.5
(75)


Edited by Bill Cody (02/23/18 10:48 AM)
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#440298 - 03/11/16 07:49 PM Re: LMB Culling & Management [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Cody Offline
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Herman Brothers way of growing big bass in the north.
Growing Trophy Bass in the Northern US
Extracted from: http://www.in-fisherman.com/bass/factors-giant-bass/
Far from the lunker bass waters of Florida, California, Texas, and Mississippi, Nate Herman of HB Lake Management of Peoria, Illinois, has plans to grow huge bass in Illinois. He’s well versed in lake management and has a successful business managing waterways for recreational fishing, using sunfish species, bass, catfish, hybrid stripers, trout, and more.

His new project focuses on a newly acquired property called Goose Ranch, which contains 52 lakes, the largest covering 121 acres. “The goal is to have a lake that offers good numbers of double-digit bass, here in Illinois,” Herman says. “Before I acquired it, this lake was known to occasionally produce bass over 10 pounds, so it has a history. With our management techniques, we can greatly increase their occurrence.”

Herman recognizes the need to provide adequate forage for bass at all phases of their growth, and how challenging that can be. “Few waters offer bass all they need to maximize growth,” he says. “Their dietary needs change as they go from 2 inches to 8 inches to 8 pounds. By raising fish in ponds, then moving them to new environments, we can provide plenty of food, reduced chance of predation, and less competition for prey. At each phase, you must identify limiting factors and reduce them as much as possible.

“In the Midwest, winter and cold springtime weather can cause bass to lose almost a year of growth. Fish have a difficult time making up for that setback. I work with a network of pond researchers who have broken new ground in growing big bass in midwestern waters. By training bass at a feeding site, some of our colleagues have had bass gain weight and condition over the winter, avoiding the flat or even negative growth that northern bass often exhibit in natural waters.”

They’ve found that bass eat bluegills and crayfish offered through holes in the ice. Some have even added diet supplements such as fish oils to prey. And training young bass to accept pelleted feed helps boost growth early in life, particularly if zooplankton and small preyfish are scarce.

This sort of intensive management is time-consuming but feasible in small private waters. To provide prey bass can catch and handle in cold water, pond owners sometimes must cripple bluegills. But results can’t be denied. Consider that shortly before her death in Bass Pro Shops’ tank, Ethyl’s girth was taped at 32 inches, thanks to her ad libitum diet of goldfish, shad, and shiners, which put her well into the 20-pound class.

Herman’s large lake on Goose Ranch is an old mine pit with deep, oxygenated water. He’s been growing trout in such waters and getting year-round survival. He knows how important these nutritious prey can be to giant bass, so he’s fully expecting a glut of 10-pounders before long.

It’s an exciting time for big bass enthusiasts. Management strategies on vast pubic waters and in private ponds have been fine-tuned by experienced managers and biologists. They’ve found that while you can’t fool Mother Nature, you can give her a kick in the pants. In less managed waters, abundant nutritious prey and harvest moderated by regulations and voluntary release make for prime opportunities, from Maine to California.

For examples of fish grown by the Herman Brothers see info in the link below. You can actually visit the Goose Ranch in IL and se how it is done and catch some of these trophy fish yourself.
https://www.facebook.com/hblakemanagement




Edited by Bill Cody (02/18/17 09:01 PM)
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#464365 - 02/18/17 09:04 PM Re: LMB Culling & Management [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Cody Offline
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Here are two videos of ways to grow your bass larger. Other fish could be used to hand feed bass instead of shad. Crayfish feeding was very interesting. I was doing similar things to grow large bass back in 1967-1970. The method works. Some are using larger shrimp and fall stockings of trout for improving growth of big bass. Trophy bass are prize live stock similar to cattle and horses; producing them is not cheap nor is it easy, but the satisfaction of doing it is immeasurable.

The Fish Whisperer shows you how to grow big bass. Feeding the bass is as much fun as catching them bass. Watch and learn. Similar stuff can be done in your pond to grow BIG hand fed bass. It takes dedication and patience. Condello in Nebraska uses similar methods for growing trophy LMB. .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4nE4dUQ23A

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=464340#Post464340

More posts for feeding excess fish to create trophy bass
IMO the best way to get big bass in a trophy BG pond is try as much as possible to keep the biggest bass on pellets and use small BG and bass with tails and or fins removed to hand feed the biggest bass.

I will try to locate some posts describing hand feeding bass your excess fish.

BG removal when managing for large bass?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=143309#Post143309

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=208554

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404738
This next part is from the Pond Boss Archives for Growing Big Bluegill
Here is a pond management tip that has several benefits. If you are harvesting small BG in the 2"-5" size range, you can use them as live bass food.
1. It removes small BG,
2. It feeds your bass,
3. It focuses your time away from bass fishing as much and slows the chances of creating hook shy bass, while productively spending your time to continue fishing and managing your fishery,
4. It is a creative way of using small BG that otherwise usually are discarded.
5. It usually improves the balance or ratio of BG:bass in a pond managed for big BG.
6. It is a way to collect and sort BG, put them in a cage, raise them to maturity and restock males into the pond.
7. It is a way to entertain the kids or keep them occupied as they fish for small BG,
8. It is easy and fun.

One interesting way to feed surplus small BG to bass is to slightly or significantly impair their swimming ability and toss them into the pond. The bass will quickly learn these fish are "easy pickings". I impair swimming ability of small BG by cutting off portions of their tails and or fins. These fish then swim abnormally. Some fish managers prefer to cut all fins or most of the fins off rather than just one fin. Single or double fin BG (& sometimes small bass) amputees have been found to survive bass predaton despite having lost one or two fins. Removing all fins makes it very difficult for a fish to survive very long with larger predators present. Bass and predators are attracted to odd or abnormal swimming fish who are usually more vulnerable and easier to catch. Bass who typically have to survive by "working hard" to catch fish, take advantage of this wounded preyfish situation. When you harvest a larger number of small BG, you can put a lot of them in a live box or small cage to hold them for several days. This way the live food feeding of the bass can be spread out over a longer period without taking time to harvest more BG.



Edited by Bill Cody (02/23/18 10:54 AM)
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