Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,082
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,414
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
9 members (Sunil, Jared015, Freg, Justin W, LeighAnn, Donatello, Theo Gallus, homewardbound, DenaTroyer), 786 guests, and 227 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 605
Likes: 13
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 605
Likes: 13
With lots of pages on the forum. There seems to be a trend of ponds or lakes with too little forage. Can the opposite be true? You've created the picture perfect large pond with diverse structures and plenty of cover. You have a established % of large bass. You have stock bluegills and tilapia from grow out ponds. You have a semi heavy quality feed being delivered. Your stocking spring and fall loads of crayfish. Trout annually stocked in the winter. You have a established minnow base. You decide you want to give gizzard shad a try. By the books it says you have the right % of large LMB to keep recruiting down of GSHD.

What happens after stocking? I can understand that the GSHD may have negative effects on BG recruitment. Does it reach a point which the LMB have too much forage and the pond would go out of balance not because the size of the bass are not the issue, but the amounts of diverse forage causes the pond to because Shad heavy?


Forced to work born to Fish
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
a trophy lmb pond is not a balanced pond, is it? Heavy amounts of forage fish is not a balanced pond as I understand it. When I follow your list of forage, I think of it as more of a money disposal pond. lol I have one like that. smile


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 605
Likes: 13
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 605
Likes: 13
Balance would be a wrong choice of word. What point will the other diverse forage species cause the LMB population to limit predation of the large GSHD?


Forced to work born to Fish
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,793
Likes: 71
Zep Offline
Hall of Fame 2014
Offline
Hall of Fame 2014
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,793
Likes: 71
Originally Posted By: TGW1
I think of it as more of a money disposal pond. lol I have one like that. smile


Ha Ha....I think most of us have experienced some of that.


Fishing has never been about the fish....

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
Corvettes, race horses, beauty contest winners or ponds. Take your pick as to the most expensive.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 44
Offline
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 44
SB,

One thought.

Getting to 80% of the way to a trophy LMB pond is easy and cheep.
Getting to 90% of the way to a trophy LMB pond is a little more expensive.
Getting to 92% of the way to a trophy LMB pond is more expensive.
Getting to 95% of the way to a trophy LMB pond is way more expensive.
Getting to 98% of the way to a trophy LMB pond is far more expensive.
Getting to 99% of the way to a trophy LMB pond is far far more expensive.
Getting to 99.9% of the way to a trophy LMB pond is far far far more expensive.

You should also substitute time in the equation as well. Time and money costs go hand in hand as you approach the perfect Trophy LMB pond, and try to keep it that way.


Brian

The one thing is the one thing
A dry fly catches no fish
Try not to be THAT 10%
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Snakebite
With lots of pages on the forum. There seems to be a trend of ponds or lakes with too little forage. Can the opposite be true? You've created the picture perfect large pond with diverse structures and plenty of cover. You have a established % of large bass. You have stock bluegills and tilapia from grow out ponds. You have a semi heavy quality feed being delivered. Your stocking spring and fall loads of crayfish. Trout annually stocked in the winter. You have a established minnow base. You decide you want to give gizzard shad a try. By the books it says you have the right % of large LMB to keep recruiting down of GSHD.

What happens after stocking? I can understand that the GSHD may have negative effects on BG recruitment. Does it reach a point which the LMB have too much forage and the pond would go out of balance not because the size of the bass are not the issue, but the amounts of diverse forage causes the pond to because Shad heavy?


SB,

Interesting question. In your case, it sounds like you do a lot of supplemental stocking of forage. If you go ahead and stock the GSD and then think they are getting out of control, is reducing your supplemental stocking plan an option to get the LMB focused on the GSD?


[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,979
Likes: 14
S
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,979
Likes: 14
I think you can choose to be as serious as you, and your budget, allow. What I have just recently decided for myself, as far as ponds go, is the need to always be mindful that it's a two way street.

All the time, effort, and money spent is pointless if all the while you're twisting your pond into your definition of appropriate, it's twisting you into something else entirely.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Another complex question that would merit an article by "The Pond Boss - Lusk". In this example, IMO yes you can have too much of a good thing. There is a "healthy" biomass load per acre based on numerous biological life-process conditions. Keep in mind that as forage amount and their biomass increases, there will be an associated increase in predator size increase and recruitment numbers, both increasing the pond's biomass. Excess survival of predators complicates the management (see Lusk's example below).

Added biomass of forage & predator increases carrying capacity, decreases water quality, and increases the number and type of related problems such as fish health, additional plants/weeds, and in turn will likely slow the growth of fish that are the ultimate goal. When near the overload capacity and usually when least expected, Mother Nature will adjust the overload if nothing else eventually does.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/31/17 09:48 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Bill Cody, you are so wright when you speak of Mother Nature making her move to correct an over abundance of most anything. As an outdoorsman, I have seen how she will correct quail populations through virus, or deer populations through virus and fish kills though virus. Fish kills? Lake Fork was and maybe still is the number one lake when talking of extra-large lmb. One day I caught 53 lmb over 5 lbs each, some in the 7 to 8lb range. Then the bass virus showed up and a fish kill took place. Large lmb were floating most everywhere. Today one can still hook into a large lmb but the numbers have been reduced, no more of those days I once had on the lake.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 605
Likes: 13
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 605
Likes: 13
On our property in MO. we do have quite a few varieties of forage only ponds. My uncle uses them as bait ponds for Mississippi River quide fishing, and I on the other hand extract forage to flow into larger basin ponds for supplement feedings.

On a note of expense. I was in the process of building a race car dumping $$$ left and right, before you know you have quadrupled your original budget and the dang thing doesn't even crank up yet. I lost interest in the project now it's a really big pretty storage unit bill.

When it comes to fish and fisheries management, I've always felt a strong passion for the field. When you enjoy something like that the money is a little easier to hand out, as long as your getting joy back in return.

Back on subject I'm still have limiting factors that will make never make two of our MO. larger ponds trophies. One is crappie in one which still produces a few 8lb bass per year. The other pond is blue cat which steal forage away from our LMB still a few 10lb fish hidden there. My ponds in TN are as of now forage only. Property purchased this year will be towards larger more sustainable trophy ponds. That's really where this forage comes into my personal benefit.


Forced to work born to Fish
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 151
T
Offline
T
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 151
Made me lol!! This might be one of the most profound statements I have seen when it comes to pond ownership!

Quote:
All the time, effort, and money spent is pointless if all the while you're twisting your pond into your definition of appropriate, it's twisting you into something else entirely.

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,792
Likes: 68
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,792
Likes: 68
Originally Posted By: tubguy
Made me lol!! This might be one of the most profound statements I have seen when it comes to pond ownership!

Quote:
All the time, effort, and money spent is pointless if all the while you're twisting your pond into your definition of appropriate, it's twisting you into something else entirely.


Tub I was just about to post the same sentiment...thus spake Yogi Tony.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

[Linked Image from i1261.photobucket.com]


Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Just curious, but has anybody here on the forum ever had to add apex predators to their recreational LMB ponds to compensate for too much forage? I'm sure not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't remember seeing a thread where that was the scenario. Not different sized forage, not different types of forage, and not a different type of predator to control a certain sized forage. Just too much forage.


AL

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,346
Likes: 96
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,346
Likes: 96
I'll hit this one from a different angle. The original question was, Can you have too much forage fish?
My answer is....no.
If you do, it's a temporary phenomenon, based on how the question was couched. The key point conveyed in the question here is "...right percentage of bass..." Here's an important point to keep in mind. Remember that it takes about ten pounds of forage to yield a pound of gain at each trophic level of the food chain. So, if you have a ten acre lake and have managed to add an extra thousand pounds of forage, you grow 100 pounds of predator fish, or 10 pounds per acre. Understanding that, there's really not much way to truly be "forage heavy" for very long at all.
When the restaurant is open, the bass will eat. There are cases where certain species of forage can become abundant in specific situations. That's a big reason we won't stock gizzard shad into a lake where we're not confident there are enough big mouths to eat significant numbers of shad as their growth rates push beyond 7-9", which happens within about 90 days of hatching. In that case, shad can outgrow the predator mouth-size, if we don't have enough large bass to prevent that situation.
Another unique situation I'll always remember was Bruce Condello's pond in Nebraska where he was stocking his best males, with no other fish. (except a few leftover hybrid striped bass). I took my 100 foot, 10' deep seine there one time, and we seined a neck of his three acre pond. We caught one hybrid striper and 40-50 big bluegills, and tens of thousands of large insect larvae and nymphs. That pond was teeming with every bug you could imagine, because there wasn't a slot in the food chain which could eat them. Sure, the bluegill could eat some, but weren't in large enough numbers to be significant for harvest. That was a cool study.
Regarding money spent, think about what it costs to buy a new bass boat, outfit it, buy all the stuff, and go to a public lake. And, you can't pull a new bass boat with a worn out truck. Add a new pickup truck to the mix and you have a lot of money in stuff that depreciates the minute you drive off the lot. Throw in bait, fuel, snacks and time going to and from that lake, and those crawfish, trout, bluegill, hatchery ponds and those dollars don't seem as bad.

Last edited by Bob Lusk; 01/31/17 05:49 PM.

Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,346
Likes: 96
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,346
Likes: 96
As I sit here, thinking about this question, let's take it to another logical level.
If someone is motivated for this type of intense management, that pondmeister also needs to understand the consequences of that strategy. So, theoretically, we grow an additional 100 pounds of bass in this picture-perfect situation. That growth isn't evenly distributed amongst all bass. It's disproportionate, based on the most aggressive fish in the system, even more so for those with the "right" mouth size for the dominant size class and species of forage fish. There will be "class warfare" under water. So, keeping within this theory, as these predators eat, they grow. As they grow, they eat more. So, given some amount of time, the predator/prey pendulum swings toward predator-heavy. Conscientious pondmeisters weigh and measure their fish, and can predict when this pendulum moves, because specific size classes of predator fish begin to show signs of slow growth, headed toward weight loss. As that fact rears its head, there are two fundamental choices. Keep money-whipping the lake with forage fish, or harvest the under-performing bass (mostly boys). Or, some of both.
That last choice is becoming more chic for trophy bass managers...if bass managers can be chic.


Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,979
Likes: 14
S
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,979
Likes: 14
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Originally Posted By: tubguy
Made me lol!! This might be one of the most profound statements I have seen when it comes to pond ownership!

Quote:
All the time, effort, and money spent is pointless if all the while you're twisting your pond into your definition of appropriate, it's twisting you into something else entirely.


Tub I was just about to post the same sentiment...thus spake Yogi Tony.


I'm afraid it's neither profound, nor spiritual, boys. Bob's recent post includes the term intense management, and that's what's been on my mind lately. Basically, I'm stepping back from that philosophy, not that I was ever that intense in the first place.

I'm done with planning, worrying, scheming, and obsessing over ponds and fish. There's just so much more out there. In a totally out of character lucid moment, I once advised Bruce Condello to quit trying to improve the fish for awhile, and let the fish improve him instead. I think I like the sound of that right now.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
Sometimes ya just gotta stop and smell the roses. wink

Last edited by snrub; 01/31/17 09:56 PM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 44
Offline
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 44
Welcome tony.


I've been there since we lost George. But I still work at it some...but only the fun parts for now.


Brian

The one thing is the one thing
A dry fly catches no fish
Try not to be THAT 10%
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
If one reaches his or her goals, then its not so hard to lay back and smell the roses that snrub speaks of. Like most of the things in my life, I cant seem to lay back until those goals are accomplished. But I do sneek in a few minutes some days to relax and enjoy what has been accomplished.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
Eric recently said it best. A balanced pond, of any kind, is very temporary. And by the time the "problem" it is realized, it is difficult to correct.

Reducing predators by fishing works until they get lockjaw. Adding forage takes a well thought out plan that you can only find out later how well it worked.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 605
Likes: 13
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 605
Likes: 13
Thank you Bob for your words of wisdom. These largemouth bass are definitely eating machines I'm sure there will be trials and errors on my end. I also hope to get better in the future at looking up the little bass skirts to hopefully get close to a female only bass pond one day.

I also agree on what some the others have spoke of when just sitting back and enjoying the ponds and fish in them for a while. I can honestly say one of the most relaxing things is to watch fish feed.


Forced to work born to Fish
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Snakebite
.... I can honestly say one of the most relaxing things is to watch fish feed.


For me, I can honestly say one of the most relaxing things is to feed on fish! grin


[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,793
Likes: 71
Zep Offline
Hall of Fame 2014
Offline
Hall of Fame 2014
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,793
Likes: 71
Originally Posted By: snrub
Sometimes ya just gotta stop and smell the roses. wink


amen brotha


Fishing has never been about the fish....

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
What PB and the Forum provides is knowledge. With that knowledge it is easier to do the management part and allows more time to smell the roses. The roses smell much better as a job well done.

The one bit of advice I would give is to learn about how things work. It allows one to both see the forest and the tree at the same time. This makes choices much easier.
















Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Sunil - 03/28/24 12:39 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by Sunil - 03/28/24 12:39 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/28/24 11:01 AM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by Freg - 03/28/24 09:42 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by esshup - 03/28/24 08:36 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by Justin W - 03/28/24 08:19 AM
Reducing fish biomass
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 08:18 AM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5