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Joined: Nov 2016
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Hello Board,

I'm a new land owner, bought 57 acres in Orange County, VA. The site is 27 acres of hardwood and 27 acres of cleared land (mostly grass/hay). There is a 1/2 acre pond currently on site, it appears filled with silt. The dam is old, but in good shape. There is no overflow pipes or any other structure to help with draining, there is an escape ditch that was dug for overflow. Essentially, if the pond fills then the water runs over a small portion of the pond and down the ditch. Seems to have worked well over the years.

The pond is full of silt. I would like a pond on my property to fish/swim/enjoy.

I had a pond consultant come to my property yesterday and he provided me with a lot of good information but I do have some questions. Here is what I learned.

- The 1/2 acre pond can't be expanded much from the area opposite the dam given the contour of the land. I could drain the pond, dredge it, dig it out, and maybe get a 3/4 acre pond. The dam should have a proper drain put into it.

- I could remove the dam, cut a bunch of Oak/etc that is currently behind the dam, and then dam up some of the forest area for a 2 acre pond. Sounds great, but was told it could cost $100k-$150K.

- On the other end of my property there is a second pond site. Could create a 2-3 acre pond. It's in a cleared portion of my land, so not as much work would need to be done and thus the job would be cheaper.

My questions:

- I'm told that I need to get permits? Is this hard to do in VA? Told that I have to get approval from Corp of Engineers.

- If I choose to put a 2 acre pond in, on the cleared side of my land, is $100K a reasonable estimate? I believe I have most/if not all the material needed on site. My property has easy access. There would be minimal clearing of trees/etc. Thoughts??

- If I start with improving the small pond. Drain, correct dam, enlarge. Would it be worth stocking some LG bass in it? Or would it be more efficient as a blue gill/catfish hole??

Any thoughts/suggestions/or contacts in Orange County would be appreciated.

MGL

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If a new pond on a different site is cheaper, why renovate the old pond?

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Renovation of the old pond will probably be $15K, my guess. It will leave me with 3/4 of an acre pond.

New pond, on the existing pond site, I'm hearing potentially $100K-$150K.

New pond site altogether, that's one of my questions. Is $100K reasonable for a 2 acre pond. Seems high to me.

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That seems high to me, but it depends on the site, how well it is done, and how much regulatory bureaucracy exists where you are at. My last project would have gone fine within my budget if not for roadblocks thrown up by the county surveyor. I gave up after that. In my opinion , bad regulation may be doing more environmental harm than good in some cases. And I am a biologist that is restoring a 100 acres of wildlife habitat on my place.

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100K seems about 4x too high IMHO. A lot depends upon how much soil has to be moved, and how far. Basically man hours behind machinery. Get some other opinions armed with knowledge from this site. But a few books like "Perfect pond, want one?"

Personlly I would build a new one, save the silted in one for a rainy day.

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Does the COE need to be involved on either new pond sites? When someone says you need that, I would listen carefully. You don't want to get involved with something that will lead to misery. I would ask them specifically why their involvement is needed. It might be size of pond, or some other small matter, and you could make small changes, like 1.5 acre instead of 2. I would think the high cost is due to the COE.

A pond that has to be excavated is more than one where the bull dozer just pushes the dirt out. Take that into consideration on your new site. And even 15K sounds expensive for the old 1/2 acre pond, if they have a place to push it out with a dozer and not haul it.

Here is a recent build by John F: LINK

Another recent thread on cost: LINK

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Thanks for all the great replies. Yes, the COE was mentioned because the consultant saw a couple small springs on my property. Thus....I would be disturbing some wetlands? You need a permit from the COE to move forward.

I would also need a permit from the state if the pond is bigger than 1 acre.

I'm going to get a second opinion on this. I want a big pond, my land would support one, but I don't want to have the COE involved if possible.....

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Oh, and on the price. Yeah, I have a lot of material on the land. It's mostly clay...so I doubt we'd be trucking anything in. The quote seemed very high....i was thinking $50K at the most....and for that I should be able to water ski on it ;-)!

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I think I would visit other pond owners in the area. Ask who built their pond, would they use them again and what they might have done differently.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Can build an average 2 acre pond here for less than 15 k.

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I think many would recommend multiple smaller ponds over one larger one. This allows different species in each, a variety of goals, and also an easier less costly path for maintenance. Think of the cost of treating a pond for an undesired plant in a 1 acre pond vs. a 3 acre pond.

When I first started down this path of having a pond built, I would have gone for the one large pond. But now, I would absolutely have multiple small ponds. If on the same level, you can always connect them later.

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I wish my two 1/4 acre ponds were a bit bigger, but not bigger than 1/2 acre each. I know people with ponds from 1/4 acre to 7 acres. The big ones are not managed as much due to expenses. Feed costs get huge quickly after a couple of acres unless the pond is stocked with limited quantities of non reproducing fish. Might as well have the smaller body of water and stock the same IMO. If my ponds were larger, I would have stocked more fish. What I already have will produce more fish than we can use, from a farming perspective. If I need to drain and refill, it doesn't seem an insurmountable chore.

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Total cost will come in around $175,000 - $250,000

If you are still reading this, the main cost driver is the excavation. A 1.5 acre pond will require moving at least 15,000 cubic yards of material. Using the existing pond as a footprint could reduce this and could take advantage of an existing water source. The price range is due to not knowing whether the bottom will need to be lined or not (feasibility would identify soil types). I also just want to mention that our approach to this pond is the same as it would be for any of our clients whether private citizen like you or a state agency – essentially meaning we do it by the book with proper planning, permitting, design, modern construction and materials. You may find folks willing to take the “dig a hole and put in a pipe”, or “you won’t need a permit unless something goes really wrong” approach for a lot less. Feel free, lots of people do it, although I got the sense you wouldn’t be one of them. Happy to answer questions, hope I didn’t scare you off.

There are a lot of variables so I made a few assumptions:
· On-site disposal of material
· 1.5 + acre size
· Pond depth of at least 10’ at dam (recommended for healthy fishery)
· Water source – spring on-site or adequate ground / surface flow
· Control structure (riser, outflow channel + emergency spillway)
· Design, permitting as required (no stream or wetland impacts)

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This was an email I received today from pond company in southern Virginia. Hmmmmm. Seems a bit outrageous to me...

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Originally Posted By: mglanham
This was an email I received today from pond company in southern Virginia. Hmmmmm. Seems a bit outrageous to me...


Seems both outrageous and condescending.

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Wow, Sounds like he is wanting you to pay his lawyers fees up front before there is any problem!!! I'm with John F... Got my 2 acre pond here in deep east Texas done for under $15,000. Cleared of trees with onsite disposal 12 ft deep in deepest end. Pond dug in 2014


Dear Alcohol, We had a deal where you would make me funnier, smarter, and a better dancer... I saw the video... We need to talk.
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And he says this does not include problems like wetlands, etc.... so, price will likely go up.

With that price, I would have assumed he was including troubles that will be encountere4d for you region.

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Sounds like to me he mostly does government contract work.

Have a friend who made the jump from farm and general contractor work to government bid work. It was a big jump (he was a relatively small contractor) but he went from jobs in the tens and hundreds of thousand dolllar jobs to hundreds and millions. Says he rarely does anything less than 2 million dollar job now. He said once you get past the government bid hurdle complexity, the competition for jobs actually thins out a lot. He has far less competetion than when he was bidding general contracting.

And everything got a lot more lucrative. Doesn't hardly pay for him to look at a non-government job. Your tax dollars at work.

That is what the letter sounded like to me. "If you don't have big bucks, don't waste my time".

Last edited by snrub; 01/21/17 09:59 AM.

John

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I've talked to two different outfits, both of which are quoting me over $100K for an 1 acre plus pond. I've got cleared land, sloped, clay, 55 acres, easy access....not sure what gives. It appears to be a damn, not dig, scenario...

I may buy a dozer and excavator and just do it myself cool

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If you do, I would be careful with doing it by the book. I still suspect permits and rules are a big part of these prices, as you may find out in doing it yourself.

There is an old time member that used to be very active here, Catmandoo. He was in that region, and I think he eluded to the fact things were changing for the worse. He sold his ponds and moved, so not active here anymore. Might reach out to him tho. See if he has any insights.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=2945

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Sounds like you need to find a small local dirt mover. A medium dozer and backhoe-loader and roller could do a typical 1.5 to two acre pond in about 10 to 15 working days and under 15k, provided you have good clay, not much overburden, and no extra hauling required. No permitting required here if we don't disturb a permanent stream or wetland. Most local ponds are built in open pastures. If you require permits, that cost is usually a token amount compared to construction.

We have larger contractors around here who I suspect greatly inflate their estimates to make small job customers go away. They only want to do highway and bridge jobs and similar large projects that keep them on the same job site for months.

Why don't you look into permitting requirements and subcontract it out yourself?

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John F, I think you are right. I'm going to start calling some smaller excavation shops and start from the bottom up versus top down. I may need a permit or two, but I'm guessing that won't be a huge cost.

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FWIW around here, for the Big jobs (government or private) a contractor must have operators that are in the union and pay union scale in order to bid the job. The way one big contractor explained it to me was that it is not that he is unwilling to do smaller jobs, it is he just can't compete price wise with the small non-union contractors.

Also, there are very hefty fees charged here for permits to just move equipment down the road to and from the job. Those permits alone can easily run into the thousands of dollars and can add significant nonproductive cost to the overall cost of the pond.

Edit: To be fair, we reached a point on my home building project where we needed fill before we could move forward. My small dirt contractor was giving us the run around as to when he could get back to get more dirt from the pond. I called the Big contractor up and told him my problem. He brought equipment out on a Saturday, just big enough that it did not require permits, and some of his union guys said what the heck and worked Saturday and Sunday for cash money to "dig" me out of my problem. To be honest, those union guys worked harder and moved way more dirt than my small contractor ever had.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/21/17 09:21 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
FWIW around here, for the Big jobs (government or private) a contractor must have operators that are in the union and pay union scale in order to bid the job. The way one big contractor explained it to me was that it is not that he is unwilling to do smaller jobs, it is he just can't compete price wise with the small non-union contractors.

Also, there are very hefty fees charged here for permits to just move equipment down the road to and from the job. Those permits alone can easily run into the thousands of dollars and can add significant nonproductive cost to the overall cost of the pond.

Edit: To be fair, we reached a point on my home building project where we needed fill before we could move forward. My small dirt contractor was giving us the run around as to when he could get back to get more dirt from the pond. I called the Big contractor up and told him my problem. He brought equipment out on a Saturday, just big enough that it did not require permits, and some of his union guys said what the heck and worked Saturday and Sunday for cash money to "dig" me out of my problem. To be honest, those union guys worked harder and moved way more dirt than my small contractor ever had.


Too bad they won't do that for most folks. Consider yourself lucky, Bill.

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Originally Posted By: John F

...Too bad they won't do that for most folks. Consider yourself lucky, Bill.


I suspect yer right John but it is nice to know there are still at least some good folks out there willing to help a guy in need. Those guys that came out that weekend were on a mission and by Monday we were back building. They worked dawn to dusk and I was only charged 8 hours a day for both labor and equipment.


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