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#461775 - 01/10/17 04:09 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: DonoBBD]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 3509
Loc: SE Kansas
Another way of sampling at least some species of YOY is go out at night with a 1/4" dip net with extension handle duct taped on if needed. The small fish will be sleeping on the bottom. Drag the net as far out as you can reach towards shore right up to the bank.

I have actually picked up small BG in the cup of one hand while they were sleeping in a few inches of water. It is no wonder larger CC can eat a lot of forage fish. I bet they eat them after dark when a lot of fish are asleep.
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#461787 - 01/10/17 07:03 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 11359
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
""I have actually picked up small BG in the cup of one hand while they were sleeping in a few inches of water. It is no wonder larger CC can eat a lot of forage fish. I bet they eat them after dark when a lot of fish are asleep."" Now you know the secret to the feeding behavior of catfish.
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#461792 - 01/10/17 08:51 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 824
Loc: NE Missouri
I'll be looking this spring to see if I had any carryover from last year's ribbons. They should be easy to identify by next spring. I'll try all three nets. I have a drop net, I must not be doing it right.
I watched the video of the GSH. My iPad wasn't showing it very clearly. Were they feeding on YP fry? Or just schooling along the bank?
For some reason, I just never considered GSH as a predator. Makes sense, now that I think about it. We've caught a few this year. The larger ones hit a little jig, just like the HBG, and the YP.
I guess I'll leave the ribbons in next spring also. With every fish in the pond going after the YP fry, I don't think I need to worry too much about overpopulation.
(I do run a feeder, but it's a bit on the sporadic side.)
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2 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
I subscribe..

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#461795 - 01/10/17 09:10 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1297
Loc: West Michigan
If you had 100 ribbons and you had 10,000 fry or more per ribbon you have potential to have tremendous YOY perch. But also, if predators are cleaning up on them maybe things will balance out.

I would like to see how the GSH and panfish can do against the perch population especially if you also catch the larger YP and eat them periodically.

Bill raised a good point that is going to be very hard to assess, the issue of not enough micronutrients and things at the plankton level to support not only the YP fry but all the other fry that are competing for the same food source. So even if the fP fry get consumed by other bigger fish, you wonder how do you properly gauge if the fry which you can barely see are 'well nourished and plump' or starving based on micronutrients that you also can't see... smile

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#461796 - 01/11/17 05:53 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
liquidsquid Offline


Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1692
Loc: East Bloomfield, NY USA
I forgot to mention that my ribbons were also mostly in the NW corner of the pond at first, but over time the south side had quite a few as the water warmed. My water was super clear last spring due to plant life. The ribbons sqt a long time before hatching due to a return to cold weather after they were laid. I wonder if the long exposure to UV killed some embryos.
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#461800 - 01/11/17 07:20 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1561
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
SettlerGuy, the video was kind of poor shot with my phone. These are common shiners mostly and the flashes deeper were the emerald shiners being nosy as to what the others are schooling for. These guys were cleaning up the fine food that dropped out of the feeder and picking through the rocks on the bottom of the pond. This mob would move over the shore all around the pond. There is about six or eight mobs like this last summer around our 1 acre pond.
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#461818 - 01/11/17 12:39 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Perch eggs are pretty durable. Most newly hatched swim-up fish fry will starve when hatched in clear water(4'-6'). Too much competition and too little zooplankton.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/11/17 12:40 PM)
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#461820 - 01/11/17 12:54 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 824
Loc: NE Missouri
I did have at least 100 ribbons in a 1 ac pond. The water was fairly clear. The FHM are thriving, so I'm thinking there's enough plankton to support the YP fry. May be entirely different characteristics in those fish, so I really have no clue.
I'm hoping the night time netting, or a larger net will help me assess what survived last year. I have kept a lot of YP to eat. I could have anywhere from 1500 YP stocked to a fraction of that. It's a long story, I've told before. I've gone from trying to determine if I'm way overstocked, to "do I have any?"
With 100 ribbons, there's no doubt I have some survivors, so I felt comfortable in taking out a few hundred to eat. I stocked 60 SMB, and 25 HSB six months after I stocked the YP in April of 2015. The SMB I've caught all seem on the heavy side. I haven't seen a HSB yet. I know it's up to me to find a way to get a good sample. I'm just stretched too thin time wise. In a few years with retirement, I'll be able to properly set up a fish trap an see what's there. Hopefully nothing catastrophic will happen before then.
_________________________
2 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
I subscribe..

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#461828 - 01/11/17 02:11 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1297
Loc: West Michigan
pellet trained HSB usually are pretty easy to catch. I'm surprised you haven't caught one yet. Your HSB are probably fat and happy just like your SMB.

Can you imagine the growth rate of your LMB and SMB if we could find a way to make those tadpoles the food of choice for the bass?

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#461830 - 01/11/17 02:42 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 824
Loc: NE Missouri
That is the truth! If anything ate those tadpoles, they'd be off the charts giant. I was up at the pond a few weeks ago, I could see them still moving under the ice.
I've been told chicken liver for the HSB, I'm going to try that this spring. Not sure if mine were feed trained or not, and I can't tell from the flashes what is hitting. I know from cleaning a lot of YP that they are sure hitting the feed.
_________________________
2 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
I subscribe..

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#461831 - 01/11/17 02:51 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1561
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
WOW you have alot of fish in a little one acre pond. 100 ribbons is allot of ribbons. We stocked 400 YP and only get at the most 20 ribbons that we see. I keep the plankton booming in our pond and can only see 12"-20" in the spring as the water warms up. When it hits 55+ it is basically 15"s of visibility all year till first ice.
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#461841 - 01/11/17 07:17 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1297
Loc: West Michigan
Dono, what is the 'secret sauce' to maintain a bloom so consistently? My pond may hold a bloom for 2 weeks in the spring and sometimes a bit in late fall but I never dared toy with fertilizer as I feared fighting more FA or other unwanted weed explosions.

Some fertilizer runoff from my front yard which slopes to the pond I believe starts the first bloom but I try to teach the crew that throws the fertilizer to try to avoid the pond area.

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#461864 - 01/12/17 07:41 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1561
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
Dono, what is the 'secret sauce' to maintain a bloom so consistently? My pond may hold a bloom for 2 weeks in the spring and sometimes a bit in late fall but I never dared toy with fertilizer as I feared fighting more FA or other unwanted weed explosions.

Some fertilizer runoff from my front yard which slopes to the pond I believe starts the first bloom but I try to teach the crew that throws the fertilizer to try to avoid the pond area.


Our pond is topped up with a drainage ditch next to it. The drain has about 300 acre of farm land that is systematically tiled every 20 feet. The pond is fertilized basically all year from the farm land. The only problem with this is atrazine. When there is a large rain event the fill pump gets turned off.

A good part of this could be sediment and not 100% a plankton bloom. All I know is visibility has never been clear any more then 3 feet in the winter.

Guess they are trying to ban atrazine in Canada for use on crop land. Will have to see.

Cheers Don.

EDIT: added a picture from google maps. You can see the drain next to the pond.


Attachments
farm.JPG (41 downloads)



Edited by DonoBBD (01/12/17 07:44 AM)
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#461867 - 01/12/17 08:13 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: DonoBBD]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 824
Loc: NE Missouri
Originally Posted By: DonoBBD
WOW you have alot of fish in a little one acre pond. 100 ribbons is allot of ribbons. We stocked 400 YP and only get at the most 20 ribbons that we see. I keep the plankton booming in our pond and can only see 12"-20" in the spring as the water warms up. When it hits 55+ it is basically 15"s of visibility all year till first ice.


I know. Live and learn. I probably would not have put so many in, had I spent a bit more time on this forum before stocking. There was a issue with survival rates on the initial stocking, so I believe I have a fraction of the original 1500 stocked. I did see a lot of ribbons though. Now that I know the GSH eat the YP fry, I'm thinking I do not get all that many through the first few weeks. I have not caught one, very small YP. Yet I have harvested at least 200 adult YP in the last 12 months.
_________________________
2 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
I subscribe..

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#461878 - 01/12/17 10:39 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1561
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
Nature is fascinating and every pond is different because there is so many variables. If your GSH were stocked the same time or even 6 months before and your perch were only 6-8" to start your going to be in great shape. We stocked this way and do not have near any over population after four years of yellow perch only.
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7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.

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#461880 - 01/12/17 10:46 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: SetterGuy]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 3509
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
That is the truth! If anything ate those tadpoles, they'd be off the charts giant.


I bet the predators do benefit. They just wait till the tadpoles sprout legs and become frogs.

Tadpoles convert algae into frogs into bass when the bass eat the frogs.

So I would think tadpoles would be all upside for the pond foodchain.


Edited by snrub (01/12/17 10:49 AM)
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#461884 - 01/12/17 10:59 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 11359
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Dono - You selectively use water from the drainage ditch as fill or make-up water - correct? I am convinced that shiners eat lots of swim-up YP fry. 100's to 1000's of shiners are capable of consuming very high amounts of YP fry that are not much bigger than many crustacean zooplankton. Thus hundreds of thousands to millions of fry can become food over the course of several days as shiners gorge on fish fry.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/12/17 06:40 PM)
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#461913 - 01/12/17 04:54 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: Bill Cody]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1561
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Dono - You selectively use water from the drainage ditch as fill or make-up water - correct? I am convinced that shiners eat lots of swim-up YP fry. 100's to 1000's of shiners are capable of consuming very high amounts of YP fry that are not much bigger than many crustacean zooplankton. Thus hundreds of thousands to millions of fry can become food over the course of several days as shiners gorge on fish fry.


Correct Bill I use the water flowing by to top up the water level in our pond. In the winter I run the pump all winter long giving the pond a big flush. 5000 gallon per hour 24/7 from Nov till March.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/12/17 06:40 PM)
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#462018 - 01/14/17 01:16 PM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: DonoBBD]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 824
Loc: NE Missouri
Originally Posted By: DonoBBD
Nature is fascinating and every pond is different because there is so many variables. If your GSH were stocked the same time or even 6 months before and your perch were only 6-8" to start your going to be in great shape. We stocked this way and do not have near any over population after four years of yellow perch only.


Good to hear. Thanks, yes the GSH were stocked at the same time. The YP were actually quite a bit smaller than 6-8". The SMB and HSB went in several months later. I was concerned about finding SMB, so I took those when I could get them.
I'm hoping the pond, including the mass explosion of tadpoles will balance out in a few years. Hopefully I'll be able to catch small fish in traps etc, like everyone else.
This summer I'm going to try and get aeration started. That's going to be a pretty large project for me. Pond is 300 yards from the barn. No elec at the pond. Lots of research to do.
_________________________
2 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
I subscribe..

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#462628 - 01/25/17 10:58 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
mthompson Offline


Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 13
Loc: WI
I will jump in here too....I am the ecologist (and GIS manager) for a large private property in WI. We have 50ish acres that are landscaped and we have two 0.75 acre ponds that I manage. Our "west" pond is actually a detention pond that we had to put in for our westward expansion, so it gets all the run-off from about 40 acres of land, both landscaped and ag.

My background is in fisheries/aquaculture, and I earned my M.S. down in Arkansas for this. I was born and raised here in WI, so I'm a tried-and-true Yellow Perch guy...with one heck of a scientific bent to life.


So, back to "my" ponds and some background. Our west pond was stocked back in 2008 with YP and a handful of LMB and really had no "management" other than algae and weed control until I showed up in 2015 (this is in the middle of well-manicured landscaping...aesthetics are #1). Well, our winter was fairly hard in 2015, and in May I started seeing LMB turning up on the edges....not just "bass" but real monsters for this area! The smallest bass I pulled out was 23" and the largest was 28"!!! We're talking State record size bass here! And I pulled 8 of these out of there, all dead.

No one had fished this pond really, save for maybe a couple kids on a couple of occasions and then from the only pier on the pond. Well, I hate to see those fish wasted, and man would I have loved to hook into them....but they must have been the last of their kind in the pond because the YP population exploded in 2015 and the fish actually came out of hiding....people here had thought there weren't many perch in there, but I am assuming they were all hiding in more secluded areas with the constant threat from some rather large mouths trolling the edges for lunch.

Our perch spawn in late April every year in this pond. This was taken on 4-27-15, and I counted 27 ribbons in <12" of water that week.

I was able to confirm all age classes of YP during the 2015-16 winter ice-fishing season....and we kept a few of the nice ones.



We have some people coming out this Friday to do some fishing, and one guy just happens to be the head chef of a certain ritzy golf club we have over here....so I'm hoping we get enough for the pan!

I am currently working on some fishing regulations and log sheets for them to record counts and lengths, and a small map for the general areas they are caught. I am thinking right now, for regulations, they can keep 10"+ fish and some 7-8"...thinking 10-12 total perch each. Then leave the 8-10" fish go to become the next size this summer.

Depending on what I see being caught this winter (population structure-wise), I may have to start thinking about putting some predators back in....probably walleye, so they don't have a good chance of reproducing and causing more management work like bass and pike end up doing. I am managing this and our "Friday Fish-Fry" pond, with a goal of being able to catch several classic WI Friday fish frys-worth of 10"+ perch, on several occasions each year.


Anybody else getting hungry right now?!?!

Anyway, I look forward to seeing more data coming in and contributing in any way that I can.
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Best regards,

MT

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Save me, O God! For the waters have come up to my neck. - Psalm 69:1

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#462633 - 01/25/17 11:08 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 11359
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
mthompson - Your YP without predators and and without significant population management will soon overpopulate and average catch size will likely decline over the next couple of years. YP are to a certain extent are cannibalistic but IMO not enough to adequately control their numbers (recruitment) were very good growth occurs on only natural foods. Pellet feeding helps tremendously to keep perch growing when recruitment is high.

Also consider using SMB with or instead of the walleye(WE). SMB will likely reproduce that will result in some recruitmen but not to the extent of LMB. YP are easier to manage with SMB than LMB. If you can get HSB they are also very good to use as predator with YP since the HSB will not reproduce. HSB are easier to catch, often survive better, and easier to manage than WE.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/25/17 11:14 AM)
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#462634 - 01/25/17 11:13 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1297
Loc: West Michigan
MT, thanks so much for jumping in and offering your experience! I find it fascinating that most people are finding the perch are happy to lay eggs in 10-12" water.

I also see that Missouri has March dates and WI and MN have had April dates for first sighting of egg ribbons. Hopefully this spring can post dates, water temps and maybe we can line it up with weather locally to see if fronts, angle of sun on horizon, daylight hours, phase of moon, or simply water temps is the thing that matters to the fish.

MT, what part of pond did you see most of the ribbons, N, NW, S, SW, etc?

Also, what was the forage base that produced the monster LMB? From your story it seemed that the perch went in later and were not the backbone of the forage that the LMB were doing so well on? If they were dining on perch, wouldn't the remaining bass be doing equally well now as there are still plenty of perch of all year classes in there?

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#462637 - 01/25/17 11:26 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
mthompson Offline


Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 13
Loc: WI
Here's an overview of my West Pond, with the bathymetry overlaid with 25% transparency. The outlet is a 12" PVC pipe through the wall of a 4ft sealed-bottom concrete tube in the NE corner of the pond. Inside the tube, the 12" PVC has an unglued/removable elbow that I can use to raise and lower the pond level.

_________________________
Best regards,

MT

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Save me, O God! For the waters have come up to my neck. - Psalm 69:1

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#462640 - 01/25/17 11:37 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: Bill Cody]
mthompson Offline


Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 13
Loc: WI
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
mthompson - Your YP without predators and and without significant population management will soon overpopulate and average catch size will likely decline over the next couple of years. YP are to a certain extent are cannibalistic but IMO not enough to adequately control their numbers (recruitment) were very good growth occurs on only natural foods. Pellet feeding helps tremendously to keep perch growing when recruitment is high.

Also consider using SMB with or instead of the walleye(WE). SMB will likely reproduce that will result in some recruitmen but not to the extent of LMB. YP are easier to manage with SMB than LMB. If you can get HSB they are also very good to use as predator with YP since the HSB will not reproduce. HSB are easier to catch, often survive better, and easier to manage than WE.


Thanks, I am planning on needing some predators sooner than later...and will use what I find this winter to make that decision for this Spring. We have two WE in a 1/10th acre koi pond and they do very well keeping any koi spawning mopped up....and I can easily catch some from our Est pond before winter ends if I need to get predators in the West pond.

I always recommended SMB/YP back in my pond management days here in WI...did private pond/public lake management for 5 years before I got the position I enjoy now. So, that is definitely on my radar. Nothing beats SMB on a fly rod for me!
_________________________
Best regards,

MT

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Save me, O God! For the waters have come up to my neck. - Psalm 69:1

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#462641 - 01/25/17 11:43 AM Re: planning a PB member Yellow Perch experiment [Re: canyoncreek]
mthompson Offline


Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 13
Loc: WI
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek


MT, what part of pond did you see most of the ribbons, N, NW, S, SW, etc?

Mostly the Northern half of the pond...East/West doesn't seem to matter.

Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
Also, what was the forage base that produced the monster LMB? From your story it seemed that the perch went in later and were not the backbone of the forage that the LMB were doing so well on? If they were dining on perch, wouldn't the remaining bass be doing equally well now as there are still plenty of perch of all year classes in there?

We stock Fathead minnows once a year or so, but only if I don't see any swimming around the edges. Other than that, it was only YP and LMB. The company I used to work for did the management here, including stocking...I'd have to look at my records, but the initial stocking was probably only 25 or so LMB...back in 2008. Along with probably 250 YP at the same time.

No other gamefish stocking has been done beyond the initial stocking. I haven't seen anything except YP now in two full seasons...and I looked really hard for any signs of LMB during both summers. I assume there are none left, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some at some point again.


Edited by mthompson (01/25/17 11:44 AM)
_________________________
Best regards,

MT

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Save me, O God! For the waters have come up to my neck. - Psalm 69:1

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