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New pond is almost complete. I probably have close to 4ft of water already but run off area around pond is of course clay and water is muddy.

I will be planting grass and adding rocks ASAP but grass is a few months off.

How soon could I stock FHM in which they would start to spawn? Would the muddy water matter to them?

Also, might add some trout in a couple months for fun, a small amount to pellet feed, qty 15-20 , would they do ok in the water?

I would like to stock other fish in the Spring, how clear does the water need to be? Should I treat before stocking, but realizing it will continue to get muddy with more rain until the grass and rocks take hold?

Pond will eventually have : YP, RES, HBG, SMB, HSB


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I would let it sit for awhile to see what happens. Do a PH and alkalinity reading before stocking. I don't know a lot about Northern ponds so will let others advise on minnow stocking in colder waters.


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Mix some annual rye grass in with the grass seed. Annual rye will sprout fast help hold soil while the other grasses (fescues) get started. During the first winter the annual rye will freeze out. Get your grass planted as soon as the frost is out of the ground - it will sprout when the temperature is right.

Fatheads will begin spawning as soon as your water temps reach 60F - measure your surface water temps coming out of ice cover. IMO expect FHM to begin spawning in Cincy area the first 10 days of April and continue until the water temps drop below 60-65F. FHM will survive OK in silty turbid water and spawn okay as long as underwater spawning substrates are available.

IMO you can stock fingerling YP (3"-6") and RES 2"-4" with or very soon after the FHM. Fingerlings will survive in the turbid & trending toward clear water as grass cover increases. Over this winter even with some turbidity, numerous types of invertebrates will naturally colonize and begin growing. Their numbers will rapidly increase after the ice melts to provide foods for the YP-RES fingerlings.

Stock your HBG,SMB,HSB sometime in fall. This will give the YP-RES a head start to provide a very good forage base for the fall stocked fish. YP&RES will spawn in spring of 2018. Be leary of fish farms pushing the adding the HBG,SMB,HSB in the spring with FHM which will detract from rapid growth that will be seen for these fall stocked fish. Remember to buy a little (4-6 lbs) fish food when you get your fall stocker fish to get them feeding well and fat going into winter. Fish farms that are not willing to sell you less than a full bag of food are IMO greedy and not in your best interest. Avoid them. A good fish farm (Shelby Fish Farm Anna OH) north of you that has a very helpful and co-operative owner is a good place to buy. Just call first and show up with some money and he will send you home with bagged, healthy fish and a portion of food for the fish. He also sells good aeration items reasonable.

IMO it would be better to add the bonus trout in Oct-Nov of 2017 rather than this spring, but both could work. Expect the 8"-10" bonus trout stocked in October to grow to 14"-15" before they die in Jun-Jul of 2018. This assumes you aerate the pond to keep some water open close to shore and feed the trout pellets in the open water on sunny winter days.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/05/17 07:48 PM.

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Thanks for the info, would it be okay to stock some bigger than fingerling fish in the Spring? What if I got the grass started in April/May , then treated water before stocking some larger YP , RES? My plan is to stock heavy the FHM, and then stock pellet fed SMB, HSB.

One issue I have is that I reserved some SMB for Spring order as they are difficult to find....might have to jump start the FHM by adding 20lbs etc to my 1/2-3/4 pond.


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What do you mean by treating the water before stocking the spring stocking?

The SMB order can always be cancelled. My advice for fall stocking of predators was primarily based on experience of growing the bass faster and bigger. You can add SMB in spring but do not expect them to grow as fast as if they are added the fall when the pond is brimming with optimum sized forage fish.

To feed stocked larger YP (6"-8") and spring stocked SMbass expect them to each need 3lbs of FHM for each SMB and 0.5lb/YP stocked to produce good growth by fall. Smallies in fall should grow to 0.5lb(9"-10") and YP 8"-10". Keep in mind to add each pound to each fish it takes 10 lbs of fish-inverts as forage. This assumes the smallies and YP are not pellet trained. For this amount of growth to be successful it would take a total initial stocking of FHM of close to 180-210lb FHM which is the pounds of FHM produced by a some stockers in spring. Remember, You want to have a good number of FHM to be still available during winter & spring 2018 for next FHM spawn. Stocking too few FHM with predators in spring will result is a lack of FHM in spring of 2018. Remember you plan to have other fish present (HSB,HBG,RES) that will contribute to eat the newly produced and some older FHM.

Not all your stocked smallies will remain eating pellets. It is common for a good number to go off pellets esp when HSB are also agressively eating pellets.

Your lack of patience could be costly in more ways than dollars in that the fishery from the beginning will not be what it could have been. Decisions are all yours.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/04/17 04:01 PM.

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Thanks again for all the info Bill, much appreciated. What I mean about treating the water is just using Alum sulfate to help clear it up in the Spring...realizing that it will go back to turbid/muddy as I receive more rain...hopefully the new grass and added rocks will help keep it somewhat clear after treating in the Spring.

I hope to have all stocked fish be feed trained to help eliminate the pressure on the FHM but realize it will only help some. What I really don't want is to stock some predators in the spring at 6-10" and have them suffer due to water quality as well.

Here is an idea I am throwing around...What if I were to stock 50lbs FHM, 4-6" YP, 4-6" RES,4-6" HBG and some HSB 8-12"...given they are pellet trained would 50lbs of FHM have a fighting chance? What if I was to give the FHM, YP , and RES a head start of a couple months.. stock in late March, (then HSB/SMB in May) . I realize waiting for Fall is correct but also know my kids/family will want to fish for something this Spring/Summer.




Last edited by beastman; 01/04/17 04:39 PM.

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Originally Posted By: beastman
Here is an idea I am throwing around...What if I were to stock 50lbs FHM, 4-6" YP, 4-6" RES,4-6" HBG and some HSB 8-12"...given they are pellet trained would 50lbs of FHM have a fighting chance?


I know Cody, TJ, and others frequently advise against stocking huge quantities of FHM at once. I've hand sorted 10lbs before and thought that was rough. 50lbs is a lot of little fish. Not hand sorting your fish, all fish, can lead to hitchhikers, like bullheads or carp. Talk about turbid water now, those species will guarantee it stays that way in the future.

Cody's advise is solid. Always is. Just a little patience is well worth it down the road.

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Originally Posted By: Omaha
Originally Posted By: beastman
Here is an idea I am throwing around...What if I were to stock 50lbs FHM, 4-6" YP, 4-6" RES,4-6" HBG and some HSB 8-12"...given they are pellet trained would 50lbs of FHM have a fighting chance?


I know Cody, TJ, and others frequently advise against stocking huge quantities of FHM at once. I've hand sorted 10lbs before and thought that was rough. 50lbs is a lot of little fish. Not hand sorting your fish, all fish, can lead to hitchhikers, like bullheads or carp. Talk about turbid water now, those species will guarantee it stays that way in the future.

Cody's advise is solid. Always is. Just a little patience is well worth it down the road.


Josh agree 100%...hand sorting high qty of FHM is literally impossible...bound to make mistakes. Invasive species introduction too high risk, you'll never rebound from that error unless you drain seine and nuke and start over.

Stock small/medium FHM at qtys that are tolerable for verified ID. Many of them will be females. Large FHM are typically aged males and could only have a month or two left longevity - great bait but diminished worth for stocking/reproduction goals due to short life left. Consider small shiner species like SFS and BNM. Josh is testament to their benefits as forage, his SMB/YP are pigs.

I would err on the side of caution and consider stocking remaining species [HBG, SMB, HSB] fall of 2018 to enable your forage base to become established, especially if you plan on stocking SFS or BNM. I understand a sense of urgency but you have one shot to make it right...time is a great way to slash your budget and decrease odds of making a mistake during stocking.



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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
.....
Stock small/medium FHM at qtys that are tolerable for verified ID. Many of them will be females. Large FHM are typically aged males and could only have a month or two left longevity - great bait but diminished worth for stocking/reproduction goals due to short life left. Consider small shiner species like SFS and BNM. Josh is testament to their benefits as forage, his SMB/YP are pigs.

I would err on the side of caution and consider stocking remaining species [HBG, SMB, HSB] fall of 2018 to enable your forage base to become established, especially if you plan on stocking SFS or BNM. I understand a sense of urgency but you have one shot to make it right...time is a great way to slash your budget and decrease odds of making a mistake during stocking.



FWIW I think this is all extremely good advice.

To touch on a few of TJ's points based on my own experience... I stocked my FHM 60% small and 40% large and had great success with reproduction my first summer. I also think stocking a small shiner and/or BNM which both stand a better chance of sustaining a population (FHM will most likely disappear in a year or two) is a great idea. It's very difficult (and expensive) to try to get SFS and/or BNM established once the predators are in there.

Another idea to prop up the forage base would be to add a few areas of large rip-rap, broken concrete, etc. and stocking Papershell crawfish (PSC) before you add predators. IMO Good source of additional forage.

Question to the pros... is this pond a good candidate for GSH to provide slightly larger forage for the SMB and HSB to relieve pressure on the YP?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned (at least that I've seen) is how many of each fish you are thinking about stocking. Another question for the pros.... is maybe stocking just a very few predators a little earlier possible until the forage base is fully established?

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/04/17 07:33 PM. Reason: After thought

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yep, I like to stock FHM about 5 to 10 pounds in multiple stockings. I don't have the patience for much more than that.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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In my experience, but not everyone else's, while GSH are ubiquitous, cheap, and can serve as great forage - adults will compete with lepomis species and especially YP for pellets. Now that I have access to SFS and BNM I will never stock GSH in limited gape cool water species fishery again....this is based just on my personal experience. Cody does not seem to have this issue with GSH...so it depends. My experience certainly does not prove they are an issue, but certainly can become one.


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Treating the pond with alum to get temporary clearing only to have it return to cloudy with the next sizable rain event due to lack of established grass & stone lined shores is a waste of money. That money can be more wisely used with a spring stocking of trout if you absolutely have to be able to catch some fish quickly. They could be stocked as soon as the ice melts but be guaranteed of the size at order and payment. Daily or twice a day pellet eating trout should not heavily predate the FHM. Often fish will be delivered at a somewhat less than promised size. No use buying and trying to catch 6"-8" trout. IMO I would either actually see the stocker trout or see pictures of them before allowing delivery. Other well experienced members have provided good advice. Risk is involved in high density stocking of FHM due to occasional trash fish mixed in with the FHM - a very common occurrence at fish farms. Reread all of the advice. If you don't follow it the results are on your shoulders.

GSH serve a purpose in some sport fish ponds. They can be a real pain and distraction to almost a nuisance to those panfishing. The same rule applies to BNM and SFS and most fish added to ponds. The pond goals and type of fishery determine how well GSH perform in ponds.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/04/17 08:36 PM.

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Yes, all great advice and I appreciate it. Would the trout have some stress in muddy water? I think you mentioned some possible gill issues but lifespan is so short maybe not as much of a factor. I was debating on GSH but will probably avoid as there will be a good amount of pan fishing.

Bill had mentioned above another option of possibly just stocking a limited amount of predator fish , maybe slowly ladder stock across the seasons.

The idea of hand sorting 50lbs of FHM sounds like a challenge and I really don't want unwanted species.

I know the correct thing is to wait, now if I have the will power to do so.....


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I have a couple questions as I will also be stocking my new .7 acre pond with same species as beastman in the spring. I already put in 75 papershell crayfish and one pound of FHM. I was thinking of doing the GSH but I have concerns also of them being a nuisance stealing bait.

where do you source the SFS and BNM? and what do they cost?

also beastman, where are you getting the SMB and are they pellet trained? PM me if you want. thanks


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Beast I recommend patience...allowing your forage base to establish and also for your turbidity issues to resolve with watershed erosion management. I'd invest the trout fund towards other capital draws on pond management - like BNM and SFS stocking or a feeder. I know it's hard to wait...


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SMB can get on pellets easily.

Cody Note: This depends on the source of the SMB and the availability of natural forage in the pond. Abundant natural forage pulls SMB away from eating pellets. Non-pellet trained SMB will learn to eat pellets better than LMB. Neither learn to eat pellets as well as sunfish and perch.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/05/17 02:14 PM.

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Turbid water to trout depends on amount or concentration and duration of turbidity. Obviously more suspended silt causes more stress. Talk to the trout supplier. This place in Urbana is pretty knowledgeable about trout.
http://fwfarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Stocking-Fish-Price-List.pdf

Question -"where do you source the SFS and BNM? and what do they cost?" They are not a common forage fish for general sport fish ponds. They are very beneficial in CERTAIN fish stocking combinations. I pioneered use of these minnows in ponds. Adding them to a pond with bass or HAB is IMO a waste of money because the predation pressure is too great. The maximum size of SFS is 5" and BNM 4.3". Both are fast swimmers compared to fatheads. They perform best in YP dominated ponds with no or a select few non-reproducing predators.
The main problem is no one sells them in quantity due to low demand. The two main suppliers charge high dollar for them. If you really want them the best way to get them is to catch them locally in streams or have a FAT wallet. Sourcing locally you have to be able to recognize the species which 99% of people cannot do, including anglers. Stocking only several breeders will need a year of low predation pressure for the population/s to develop abundance.


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Per Bill some forage would require time to establish populations which is why I advocate a season of waiting...just my preference. Bill do BNM and SFS have poor chance of establishing in fishery with SMB?


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Thanks Bill, That is where I was going to go/ call about the Trout. Glad you recommend.

Xray- I am sourcing the SMB from Jones fish farm. They originally told me they do pellet train some SMB, but not sure I will receive those based on other communication I've had with them. I just know SMB are difficult to find so hesitant to cancel my order for Spring.

Another idea ...( you can see where I am going with this ...don't think I have the will power not to stock some fish to catch this season ...I know I am wrong but trying to make the best out of the decision )

Ladder stock FHM throughout the season, 10-20 lbs at a time ( March / May/ July), stock limited number of predators (25 SMB / 25 HSB that are pellet trained ), Stock larger (4-6") qty 150 YP, qty 75 RES qty 200 HBG.

Come Fall if I don't see some decent growth , maybe I make the decision to remove some SMB..... with this plan I think the HSB will do fine on the pellets, unsure about the YP and HBG but think they would do okay given the pellet feedings... I am not trying to have trophies but don't want a bunch of stunted fish either... Given the lack of spawning success with the species I will stock , I could also harvest some of the poor performers in the Fall.

Obvious this plan is not standard for best growth possible but maybe somewhat of a happy medium for someone that isn't going to wait?


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The forage fish selling farms will love you; always use the higher pounds of forage at each supplemental stocking. 20 lbs of FHM adds only 2 pounds of sportfish biomass to the pond. FHM are very temporary snacks.

IMO change/modify your order with Jones to make the purchase of SMB from Jones conditional that they are pellet trained. Pellet trained first stocking of SMB will have a major impact of the success of your forage and fishery later. If you cannot get the pellet eating SMB in spring, they can always be added later which would provide IMO the better overall results.

Harvesting significant numbers of the poor performers is not as easy as it sounds. Often it is the bigger, more aggressive fish that are easiest to catch. Done all this many times before. You will learn as the pond progresses.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/05/17 04:56 PM.

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Beast, I know it’s hard to wait. I know this because I waited. Friends poked fun at me (I mean, they do that anyway). You see everyone’s fish pictures, and that’s what you want. But I listened to guys like Cody, TJ, Travis, and others. I saw fish pictures, went out to my pond, and just saw schools of forage fry everywhere. I finally got to stock my predators. In less than a year, they doubled in size. There’s nothing special about my pond, except that when I put my desirable species in, they had a lot to eat. I’m pretty thrilled with the results of my patience.

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I hear you Omaha, and if it was me this pond would wait a year before stocking predators... My 10,7 and 4 year old can be very persuasive however ...also have a pool being done in the Spring so I know there will be family / friend parties and they will want to fish...

Trying to find somewhat of a balance...I know the kids and family will enjoy feeding and managing the pond...but know they will also want to catch something.


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You could buy some catchable sized channel cat from most any fish farm, and the kids could feed and catch them the first year.

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CC vs fall or early spring stocked trout. I will always choose trout. Why? 1. they grow faster than CC. 2. they feed more often and with much more activity than CC. 3. they fight harder than CC; some trout will even jump when hooked. 4. they are usually easier to catch with a wider variety of lures than CC. 5. Similar price per pound for larger fish CC $4.50/lb, trout 10-12"$4.50ea;12"-14"$5.99ea. 6. Hook smart and uncaught trout will be eliminated from the fishery on an annual basis and not become hook smart and/or a uncatchable, pellet hogging fish the next year as will, does CC. 7. Trout will die in summer and will not comprise / utilize fish biomass and detract from the sportfish in terms of standing crop - carrying capacity in the summer when developing forage fish biomass is important. 8. I think trout are easier to clean for eating compared to CC.

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Great advice Bill, but if the trout only knew how the evidence was stacked against them and how we were counting on their early demise!

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Hey Beastman,

My understanding is you estimate the pond will end up being 1/2 to 3/4 acres. If you don't know how big the pond will ultimately be, I would assume 1/2 acre when initially stocking. You can always add more. I'm not a pro but some of your stocking numbers just seem a little bit off to me. Maybe one of the pros will comment.

Maybe some food for thought below but maybe you have it all covered...

Are you planning on adding aeration?

What habitat and structure is in the pond? Spawning beds/structure?

Planning on adding vegetation? If yes, what kind?

Setting up a feeder? What pellets will you be feeding? Will the feeder be setup and be ready to go when you stock?

I ask these questions because everybody here at PBF wants to see you succeed and are looking forward to your pics of the kids with fish! smile

Bill D.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/05/17 08:38 PM. Reason: Clarification

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I do plan to aerate.

Will be making some structure and will have some rocks and gravel areas along with a dock.

Vegetation- wasn't planning on it- anything you recommend that doesn't over-take and easy to control? Looks nice / flowers?

Pond is behind my house so plan to hand feed 2-3 times a day a high protein 40-42% aquamax or optimal .

Pond I believe will be close to 3/4 , need to measure but somewhat unique shape.

John- no CC for a lot of the reasons BC states and personal preference to use biomass for HSB and a SMB .

I do have a finger section of the pond , could I possibly block off and give the FHM a chance to multiply and release in stages? I will do some research but my guess is it is tough to keep FHM contained and could be more work than just buying 10lbs in stages .


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Originally Posted By: beastman
......Vegetation- wasn't planning on it- anything you recommend that doesn't over-take and easy to control? Looks nice / flowers?

Pond is behind my house so plan to hand feed 2-3 times a day a high protein 40-42% aquamax or optimal .


My personal favorite for a flowering emergent plant is hardy water lilies (dwarf species stay more controlled IMO). They come in just about any color you want. For a flowering marginal/emergent pickerelweed does well for me but there are several good choices. Here is a very good link to the archives on beneficial pond plants.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=440475

Looks like you have a plan on feeding. Only suggestion I have is that, since you seem to be moving towards a pond dependent on pellets (Which IMHO is ok. Lots of folks have them and grow great fish), just keep in mind if you are hand feeding instead of using an automatic feeder that somebody needs to babysit the pond and feed the fish if you go on an extended vacation. smile

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/05/17 09:38 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Thanks Bill, I will do some research on the plants, haven't given it much thought but some of that don't spread much and flower would be a nice option.

I have thought for more about my forage issue if I stock predators early, would adding Tilapia help much?


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Adding tilapia in a newly stocked pond has pros and cons. Biggest benefits would be algae control and you could stock smaller tilapia since larger predators are not present. IMO the added forage fish benefit from the tilapia would not be as big of benefit as adding extra FHM because fatheads are much easier to capture throughout the summer for small predators. As the predators grow and algae increases post year 1 or 2, tilapia become more beneficial as a forage source.


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