Pond Boss Forums AQUATIC VEGETATION Controlling unwanted plants Pros and Cons of Pond Dye

I've been trying to find an old thread(s) that discusses the pros and cons of pond dye without success. I did find one thread titled "Pros and cons of blue pond dye" but it never really addressed the question. Does anybody know of a link(s) that will help me get a better understanding of potential pond dye impacts (good and bad) on the pond ecosystem?

I struggled with using pond dye Bill because of the issue of reducing productivity. But I finally decided that in some aspects perhaps I had over productivity and reducing some of it might not be all bad.

My first year was basically an experiment to see if I wanted to do it again. I think it met my expectations enough to do it again. It possibly just could have been the conditions for that specific year, but I thouht I had decent success. If I can repeat it for multiple years, then I will consider it a success.

But hopefully I only have to do it for a few years. I'm getting some vegetation around the outside of the pond and hopefully some day I will have desirable vegetation taking up the nutrients instead of the FA.

Like most things pondish, I think it comes down to one's goals. I apply dye to one of our ponds, and would never consider going without it, at least not in the pond's current configuration. This bow happens to be the HBG pond, and in this case I consider mother nature to be my adversary, not my ally. I want to control the DO levels, food chain, aquatic plant growth, everything I can.

Her goals and mine, simply do most mesh in this instance. In this case, I'm not convinced that a natural setting is best. Trying to live in harmony with nature basically means letting her win, and that is counterproductive to my goals.

I think a more natural setting allows for a great deal more flexibility.

snrub, I am somewhat new to this but have used pond dye some for three years. How does it reduce productivity?

Tony, have you been lurking around my brood/growout pond? That's my exact same scenario for that BOW. I use dye for the same reasons I hand feed, raise and lower water levels, control forage and predators, etc. It's just part of the package for me.

I want to control everything relating to that pond, and dye allows my shoreline primrose and reeds grow, but helps control submersed weeds. I use Aquashade, and it does seem to give me better results.

I'm not sure I'd use dye in a naturally controlled pond, but I just don't know.

This is just from what I read, not what I know.

"Productivity" is considered anything growing in the pond. Dye reduces light penetration so reduces growth that depends on that light. Thus reduces productivity.

So the definition that bioligists use may not be what we pondmeisters think of as productivity (ie more fish).

That explanation is already beyond my knowledge level.

Basic aquatic plant productivity including that from algae cascades nutrients up the food chain to zooplankton then invertebrates then fish aka a simple food chain. The full complex of various sections or components and the many interactions of all the parts of the cycle is called the food web of the pond or lake. Look up food webs which can be terrestrial or aquatic.

Basically when one reduces, by any means or method, the basic or bottom PLANT part of the food chain(web) everything on each feeding level above that nutrient or feeding level is reduced by often 10 times. The plant component is called basic productivity because every food level above plant is dependent on the overall amount of plants available to the grazers (second lever feeders). Each upper level or layer supports about 10 times less biomass.
http://texasaquaticscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C5_fig_5.4jpg-aquatic-science-texas.jpg

Pond dye is intended or designed to reduce sunlight penetration into the pond similar to heavily shading your grass or garden. With reduced light less plant growth occurs. Less plant growth equals less animal growth. However this can be compensated in ponds by feeding fish who then rely on external fish food instead of the natural foods produced within the pond.

Are we not trying to control the FA with the use of pond dye? If we have an outbreak of FA will that not also restrict the sunlight and cause some of the same problems but not look as pleasant as clean water that has the dye added.

Dye won't control filamentous algae. I'll come from a slightly different angle that what Bill explained.
Dye prevents the sun's UV rays from penetrating the water column. That's what prevents (not control) plant life from growing. From a "productivity" perspective, we need sunlight to grow plankton. Plant plankton feeds the animal plankton which feeds slightly larger insects, threadfin shad and filter feeders. Those insects feed small fish which feed larger fish which feed bigger fish.
So, people who are interested in natural production of fish won't use a dye. People who's fish depend on fish food often prefer dye in order to minimize risk of filamentous algae. People with less interest in growing as many fish as possible often use dye, in an attempt to keep algae away.

Thanks for everybody's inputs. FWIW My take away is there are no "cut and dried" pros and cons for dye use. It depends on your goals for your pond. Hopefully, this thread provides some info that allows pondmiesters a better understanding of what the potential impact on the total pond ecosystem could be by using dye, not just on the algae and vegetation. I know I've learned a lot so far.

One of the questions I still have is regarding the colors of pond dye. Do different colors of dye impact the pond ecosystem to the same degree or in different ways?

Anybody else that has questions or experiences to share about pond dye, please jump in. The reason I started this thread is I failed to find an existing forum thread that provided a comprehensive discussion on dye and the impact(good and bad) on a pond's total ecosystem.

I am pretty new to this pond management thing, but I have been trying to learn by following this forum closely. We have had a 10 A. rock quarry for the last 3 years and the thing we fight is lack of vegetation because of lack of shallow area which is about an acre and a half. The rest is 20 to 35 ft.with steep walls. We have had to add a lot of structure. Maybe I shouldn't be concerned about FA since the poorest visibility I have seen is 3 ft. FA is ugly though. You are right though, I have to decide what is best for our goals. Our goals are all about the fish. My wife and I do really enjoy our family enjoying the fishing. I wish there was more exact answers for us. I did buy some more dye at the end of the summer to get started in the spring. I may just leave it on the shelf and be happy with what we have because that isn't to bad.

Dye at less than label concentration (variations of light blue hue) does have a less effect on the plankton and plant community. It is similar to taking 1/2 or one aspirin instead of 2 aspirin.

Thanks Bill,

Fair to say then that a aqua blue dye has less impact than say a dark blue or black dye? I did find one of your old posts that talked about light wavelengths of red and orange being those that promote vegetation/algae. How does that relate to dye color?

I don't recall the exact timeframe of the old post but I think it was 10+ years ago. IIRC you and Kelly were also discussing budget dye vs name brand in the same thread.

The dye color and sometimes blend of colors have a light filtration selection reduction ability of wavelength i.e. color. Thus the darker one makes the hue of the dye (concentration) you are using GENERALLY the more light filtration or removal that will be filtered from the water. The less the light that penetrates more wavelengths that are being excluded by the dye. Some wavelengths could be unaffected by the dye depending on color of dye.

I think most pond dyes are sold as aesthetic improvement of the water especially if the water is muddy murky - lipstick on a pig. To my knowledge not a lot has been published about what colors and what concentrations have the biggest suppression of pond plant growth. Definitely more research is needed on this topic.

Thanks Bill. That explains why I've been so unsuccessful finding info on the subject.

I did find an old PBF thread titled "Lake Dye Comparisons" where there were discussions regarding various products. It seems there was an effort started to do some actual comparative testing of different products but no definitive results were published. Here is a link to the thread.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=34865&page=1

Cody Note- That planned study never developed very much past the talking stage. It sounds like a good science fair project or a college senior project. One of the main problems was being able to acurately measure the amount or concentration of the dye. It takes an instrument more sophisticated than a basic light spectrometer.

Dye will work as a flocculant if you use enough of it.

First I've heard of this John. Can you provide more info?

Sanco Industries Crystal Blue Pond Dye web page. Didn't post a link bc I don't know if they are a PB vendor.

I used it last spring and my pond was already somewhat clear, but it did seem to become a little more clear after the dye application.

Dye can influence and reduce the amount of plankton in the water column due to effects noted above. This in itself will increase transparency. Fewer phyto and zooplankton particles is like less fog in the air. I doubt that dye has any flocculation tendencies.

I pulled up the MSDS on the product John is talking about.

25.9% Acid 9 and 1% Surfactant. I checked the MSDS on Aquashade as well and it listed acid blue and acid yellow(%s unspecified) but no surfactant listed. Greek to me. Maybe it means something to the guys in the know on this kind of stuff. Any comments?

Originally Posted By: John F

Dye will work as a flocculant if you use enough of it.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody

Dye can influence and reduce the amount of plankton in the water column due to effects noted above. This in itself will increase transparency. Fewer phyto and zooplankton particles is like less fog in the air. I doubt that dye has any flocculation tendencies.

I agree with Bill; that dyes have no inherent ability to precipitate clay or silt particles.
Any observed decrease in turbidity after a dye treatment is due to the non-correlated settling of suspended clay or silt solids, which would have occurred with or without the dye treatment.

In my pond, which is now a little over two years old, I have fertilized the pond in the spring at or about April 1st. It was recommended to meet my goals. It has taken around 5 lbs of powered fertilizer to get the bloom going to where I am at 24" of green water. By April first the pond is full of new cnbg, fhm's and this year I should have an lmb spawn by that time. May also have some res in the spawning mix, with Tfs and Tp soon to follow. So, I my situation this past two years I have had many blooms through the hot summer months and that has reduced my visibility down to 13" of green water. We have also seen a drought from July to November with little to no rain, reducing the water volume in the pond. We also feed the cnbg. Ok, now the question. In this situation can I add dye to reduce the blooms but keep the plankton at a good level while reducing the number of blooms but still keep enough plankton to feed the new spawns. And would adding the dye during the blooms cause a dye off and the reduce the DO that might cause a fish kill. And we have air through diffusers. So, will adding a small amount of dye reduce the number of blooms or reduce the plankton to a controllable number and keep the green water to a 18 to 24" visibility number?

The website says it clears the water. If it doesn't, then it is a case of false advertising. My "perception" was slightly clearer water, but it could have been due to the color.

JohnF - If the dye reduces the amount - density of plankton which in turns causes slightly clearer water there is no false advertising. Lack of water clarity is due to increased amounts of of suspended solids/particles: 1. silt-clay aka mud, 2. bacteria, 3. phytoplankton, 4. zooplankton, and 5. suspended dead organic particles of various sizes aka detritus. Stain or color of the water can also contribute to hue in the water.

TGW1 - Instead of trying to use dye to reduce the amount of plankton why not start trying to use less fertilizer? Maybe in 2017 use 4 or 4.2 lbs instead of 5 lbs. Depending on results one year try 3.7lbs of fertilizer than later add one pound? Experiment until you get the bloom density you want. Then later if the water does not have the 18"-26" clarity add a 0.5 lb of fertilizer. This should be a better way to get you to your goal. Keep in mind that your pond alkalinity can change from year to year which will affect the ability to produce a bloom. Ideally you should take an alkalinity measurement before adding the fertilizer to verify the alkalinity is adequate or same as last year when the bloom was good.

There is another important factor in forming blooms - internal recycled nutrients. Your pond sediments do decompose to add nutrients to the water plus nutrients runoff adds and flushes nutrients if there is an outflow. Keep these factors in mind when fertilizing to create blooms.

Could Sanco Crystal Blue Pond dye have some slight clearing capabilities? The primary ingredient is Acid Blue 9.

Two of the claims from the website for Sanco Crystal Blue Pond dye :

"Can help clear up muddy ponds"
"Helps settle out dissolved solids"

The MSDS provides they have 1% "surfactant" as an ingredient. Do other dye manufacturer's add a "surfactant?"

The surfactant helps keep the dissolved dye in suspension and not precipitating as long as the dye does not freeze. IMO the claims of - "Can help clear up muddy ponds"
"Helps settle out dissolved solids"
is guesswork and sales promotion and they have no real data nor proof to back up these claims.

Off the topic but i think blue dye looks little horrifying. Kind of like there is some kind of chemical leakage to the pond from a nearby factory.

Thanks Bill Cody for your recommendations. That was the plan for this year to reduce the amount of fertilizer that was used the last two years. Another thing is this past year I built a sediment pond and have been raising fhm's in it. Feeding the minnows will cause a bloom and when it rains some of the sediment water moves to the big pond and I will see a bloom there. So this year I am not so sure I will fertilize but may let the sediment water along with feeding the big pond do my fertilizing. Or may add a reduced amount of fertilizer depending what is going on in March. I was wondering if I had numerous blooms this coming year, could it be controlled through dying the pond, reducing sunlight penetration. a light dye application over adding some alge controlling chemical. Not wanting to kill off a bloom but to control a bloom.

Concerning the surfactant and suspension, on the super concentrated quart stuff I found it good so shake the bottle violently before opening kept me from having to do so many rinses to get the sediment out of the bottom of the bottle.

Fatih, although I would put it in somewhat more charitable terms, my feeling also is that the turquoise color is more adapted to the Caribbeam setting and would not fit well with our midwest decor.

That is why I went with the much less popular black dye. It tends to give the pond more of a mirror look rather than black.

Bill C posted earlier...



FWIW IMO it would be more desirable to suppress/reduce a bloom before it starts instead of trying to reduce it wants it starts. I would think that would reduce the potential of a DO crash compared to if you "kill off" the bloom. If it was my pond(and it's not ), I would go with Bill C's "1/2 aspirin" approach from the beginning, before a bloom. Maybe reducing the depth of sunlight penetration to some degree would reduce/suppress the bloom in the deeper water and still allow some in the shallows??

Just my 1 cent....

If you think about, please post back with what you end up doing and how it turned out.

We did this half-measure treatment last year -- our first time using dye. It worked pretty well. We still had some FA but maybe 25% of what we had the previous year. Our place is old and hyper-eutrophic though.

snrub, it totally agree man. And i would also prefer black dye. It looks like a lake in a rain forest. Dyed by all the logs and dry leaves...

Blue dye in ponds with high iron content turns them a nice green color. That's the scenario with my brood pond.

This month's BobLuskOutdoors Newsletter has a nice article about hatchery ponds, or sometimes called grow out or brood ponds. I personally think hatchery pond is a more descriptive name.

Since most hatchery ponds must be seined, weed control is important to say the least. I move water from my big pond to my hatchery pond, and weed movement is always an issue. Despite my best efforts, spotty coontail started showing up in the hatchery pond after water transfers. In 2016 I added Aquashade during water changes, and I had no coontail show up in that pond. We seined that same pond a total of 14 times in 2016, and no coontail was pulled up by the net either. I started adding Aquashade when the overnight water temp sustained at 50 degrees, and stopped early this last winter when the overnight water temp was below 50 degrees. This certainly isn't scientific data, but I do know I no longer had to use aquatic herbicides in that pond.


I always place an upside down coffee cup in the water right before applying dye. I place it just deep enough to recognize the color, but not the cup itself. Within a week or two, the coffee cup becomes clearer. After thinking it was caused by some sort of light spectrum change due to the dye, Bill's comments on plankton now makes me certain that the loss of plankton is the most likely cause.

Because the particular pond I apply dye to is a hatchery pond, and is drained and treated with hydrated lime several times a year, long term water productivity is not an issue for me. Now, I'm more convinced though that I probably wouldn't add it to any of other my ponds. In those, I'll take the food chain, and fight the weeds.

Great insight from real world experience Al. Thanks. Might help me out with what I am trying to do some day.

FirelsHot do you have any idea how much dye was added to reduce the coontail in your hatchery pond? How blue dark is it? This darkness or dye concentration is a big variable from one user to the next. Brand of dye and it's concentration the bottle has a lot to do with how much is added. Keep in mind that some dyes will be more absorbed by the pond sediment, organic content and possibly some leaching. Some ponds stay dye stained longer than others. Why has always been a mystery to me.

Bill, I put out 20 oz per treatment, which is right at .5 ppm. That's the lowest recommended effective dose for Aquashade.

I apply the dye on the windward side of the pond, or by pouring it in during water additions, and let the hose discharge circulate the dye. The pond is dark blue when added, but changes to green within a few days. Again, I'm thinking it's the iron ore in the pond since the normal water color is a dark tea color.

This pond also has a large watershed which makes application longevity problematic. Several times a year, dye is added due to natural flushing of the pond. This year we're raising CNBG again, so little will need to be done with this pond water level wise. I'll try to get duration numbers this spring after all the rains are over.

EDIT BY ME: One more thing I would like to add is that previous attempts to control coontail didn't work when that coontail had grown to several inches below the surface. I'm not sure if it was the previous dyes I was using, or the coontail's ability to get unfiltered sunlight, but for whatever reason, dye didn't work. Dye doesn't bother my water primrose, so my assumption is it was the sunlight.

Originally Posted By: FireIsHot

EDIT BY ME: One more thing I would like to add is that previous attempts to control coontail didn't work when that coontail had grown to several inches below the surface. I'm not sure if it was the previous dyes I was using, or the coontail's ability to get unfiltered sunlight, but for whatever reason, dye didn't work. Dye doesn't bother my water primrose, so my assumption is it was the sunlight.

Your observation is a concept that bears repeating. Suitable lake-dyes will generally "work" only as a deterrent/preventative measure; meaning they should be applied long before a weed or algae problem becomes evident or established. Several feet of water-column depth are generally required for light-filtration to occur; with the relative depth being determined by the dye-dosage. If submerged plant-growth has already ascended to near the surface - or is on the surface (primrose) - it's unlikely that a dye-treatment at that point will offer any benefit unless the plant's biomass is significantly lowered to a greater depth by some other means (ie. mechanically or with a herbicide treatment).

+1 I want my pond to look natural for its setting. To me, ponds are supposed to be some shade of green or clear. Wish they made a pond dye in a "natural" green shade!

Cody Note. Clear water, such as the Caribbean, reflect the sky color, some shade of blue. I think this is what the dye companies try to copy.

Bill nothing I did specifically answers your specific questions, but this is my experience with dye the first year I used it.

black pond dye experience

Edit; the link goes to page three but the application information actually is the last post on the previous page 2.

Repeat question from 'black pond dye experience'. "Snrub - Good report. What brand of black dye do you use? Do you see black as having benefits compared to blue? My understanding is most black is made with blue, yellow, and red."

The first I got was called "Black DyeMond" as I recall but what was most used was from "Rain Biologics". You can do a Google search and find them I think.

I really have no experience with the blue other than both my wife and I did not care for the shade of water color we saw where it had been used. That was really the only reason the black was tried. It was the only other color found to be available.

Edit: rainbiologics.com

Black DyeMond is by Pond Logic

I saw no difference in the two other than price and fancy label.

snrub,
Do you think the black dye affects surface temperature much in heat of summer? Maybe no more than muddy water?

Good question, but I surely do not know the answer.

I'll answer your question with a question. Does it really change the total absorption of heat, or simply change the depth to where the heat (light) penetrates?

I gotta feeling we are splitting hairs, but an interesting thought at any rate.

Muddy water affects the surface and extreme shallows temperature more on hot days, but not much impact, if any, on total absorption. I wonder if black dye would have much the same effect? I have experienced this myself from wading in very shallow water: On a hot summer day, shallow muddy water will be MUCH warmer than shallow clear water.

Edit: From my experience, the blue dye does reduce visibility (secchi depth). I have no experience with any other dye color.

Does pond dye reduce the depth of penetration of all wavelengths of sunlight or just the wave lengths required for photosynthesis? Does dye reduce visibility (secchi disk results) by blocking light penetration or does it increase visibility by preventing blooms or "it depends?"

Color of the dye determines which wavelengths of light that are filtered or absorbed. Type of penetrating wavelengths will stimulate specific "types" of photosynthesis required by different species of algae. It is pretty complex due to all the different species of algae. They are definitely not all the same and usually some species are unique and capable of inhabiting all sorts of conditions on earth. There are algae that live in hot springs, snow banks of far northern areas and a form that lives as co-habitants as lichens on trees, even aerophylic algae.

Can tannins in the water act as a pond dye to some extent?

The reason I ask is our pond came up 4 feet overnight and is at extreme full pool today. The sudden influx of water was caused by a combination of a large watershed with frozen ground, melting snow and an inch of rain. A portion of the unexpected runoff of water came thru some woods and our pond is now tea colored.

The fish don't seem to mind. I suspect that's because the pond PH is normally 8+ with alkalinity 300+. I doubt the PH dropped any significant amount with alkalinity so high to act as a buffer.

Amount of light filtration reducing light wavelenghts for plant growth will depend on: 1. the darkness of the tannin, 2. the filtration ability of tannin to selectively filter wavelengths needed by plants mostly green plants. Some good homework may provide your answer. I have nothing for you. Please share your research.

I do know that when the addition of new tannin subsides the tannin will gradually and naturally be reduced.

Bump.

Getting that time of year, if a person wants to use pond dye as a tool in the FA remediation toolbox, to watch for the greening up on the bottom of the pond.

Thought I would bring this post up instead of making a new one.

I was thinking of adding a dye for the winter to help prevent predation from GBH, Osprey, and everything else that wants a quick meal. Wondered about using it for winter protection and allowing it to fade out by March, then back to normal. Also would you think a black dye increase the winter water temps any?

I'm not sure about the water temp. I know that in a local public lake the shallow areas where the sunlight could get to the muck bottom had 4°F-5°F higher water temp than the rest of the lake in the Spring.

As for the black dye, plan on using about 30% more to limit visibility as compared to the blue dye. For some reason the black dye that we have used didn't seem to be as "dense" as the blue. Both dyes from the same mfg.

So I never thought about using dye for preditor mitigation. During the winter the Bald Eagles love eating amurs and trout. Have you folks had any luck with that. My eagles are here about every other day for hours on end. The GBH is more a pest in seasons other than winter here in NE Ohio.

Be thankful an Osprey has not shown up with your Eagle. They share their time at my pond.