Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Building a dam New Pond in PA not filling up as expected

Soil sealers can work okay. However when there is a drought and water goes down below the sealed area the leak often reappears due the surface layer drying out and cracking.

When cracks appear above the water line in a drought, fill them in tightly with dry Bentonite. Then, when it is wet again, the cracks will stay sealed.

There is always a chance that there was a porous seam in the clay in the excavated side of the pond. Ideally several compacted layers would be plated atop these areas (the entire basin) to prevent these leaks.

When the pond was filling, did you notice any wet spots in the basin that was NOT your incoming spring? Those wet spots may be those seams where water will go in and out depending on surrounding ground water pressure. If you have any indication where these were, you can always drain down a bit to expose those again and address them with Bennonite.

If the bennonite doesn't do the trick, Soilfloc is your next best bet.

Update.... I gained an inch! Yeah.... Actually gaining is better than loosing I guess in the middle of a drought.

I did have two different locations where it was damp while filling on the bottom. Wasn't really wet, just damp enough to to have a little darker shade. Is there a better way to evenly spread bentonite? I have a large area so do you whip it with a shovel, try a broadcast spreader, sprinkle out of a cup? What is the best way for good even coverage?

Like I said though, oddly enough I jumped an inch out of no where with a tenth of an inch of rain last week so that was great. Just need a lot more rain. Almost all the ponds around here are very low.

New update..... Finally got some rain!!!!! Tuesday and Wednesday were awesome. .6" of rain on Tuesday got me about 2" more in the pond and Wednesday we got 1.2" and that got me almost 5" in the pond. We got a long way to go but its really nice to see some progress! I was stuck over a month at 75 inches but now I am at 7 foot and climbing. The rain has more than doubled the flow rate into the pond also so I should gain a little more each day now. I am measuring about 12 GPM now and actually went down to look what it was during a down pour and I was afraid to measure it. I think it would have ripped the bucket out of my hand... I'm guessing about 40-50 GPM but its just a guess. The 4" pipe was over 1/2 full.

I guess now the objective is to hold my higher level now instead of dropping. I am still looking for the best method to broadcast bentonite if anyone cares to share it.

I envy you Rebuck, all during my pond build the weather forecast called for rain off and on, but never amounted to any. Good thing however, my project was a refurb of an old sediment filled pond and if it had rained the results would of been a half finished job with no affordable way to complete. Anxiety was high! Now that it's ready for rain...I can't get any. Now anticipation is High. My pond is at 6 inches deep, 9 and a half feet to go!

Rebuck, I work with Bentonite most days. Spreading bentonite can be done by many ways. If you want to add it to a pond that already has water, I would suggest u blend up a very thick viscus slurry and then pump it to the area u need it. Add the slurry close as u can to the bottom of the pond by where u can pump volume with low pressure. I am not sure u would get much benefit by just adding it to the waters surface and letting it settle to the bottom of the pond, unless it was added to very shallow water depths. Bentonite is a clay that usually comes in a very fine particle size and adding it to the water surface, I would think it would just float at the surface for a while and the wind or wave action would or might disperse it to thin for a layer on the bottom for little benefit. It would work great if it could be added on the ponds bottom before water is introduced. If u want it to go right to bottom , one can add Barite to the thick slurry where the slurry can be weighted up much heaver than water. And will give a much thinner layer of clay. I am not sure what the effects of barite would do to the fish, I don't think it would harm them if it was not added in excess.

In my experience, bentonite will not seal a hydrated pond. It's designed to be incorporated into the clay during the construction phase, then plated over with clay in multiple lifts. Met dozens who wasted thousands pumping bentonite into their ponds with zero benefit, sad deal. Hope your rains continue!

Rebuck,

I think I am missing something here. Why do you think you have a major leak issue?

Hey Guys, specifically Bill D, I am not positive I have a major leak. I wasn't sure of the effectiveness of bentonite but I can get it rather cheap so it was sort of like insurance. I went like 1 month without raising at all. It was really starting to scare me because I have constant flow into the pond.

Now that I finally got some rain, I am really feeling better. I zoomed right passed the 7 foot mark and this morning I was at 90"!!! I probably have another 7 foot to go but as long as I see it constantly going up, even 1/8 inch per day or so, I'm happy. I got like 7-8 inches out of 1 inch of rain which was great but it also doubled the regular flow rate for quite a while.

I am not at all patient! I spent a huge amount of money (way more than expected) and started to panic... I am starting to feel a little better now and quite possibly do not have much of a leak. I hope by spring I am mostly full and can get a better feel for it. I would like to know something about daily loss before I stock it. The stocking kit I want is like $1000 so I would hate to kill the fish while trying to chemically seal it.

Thanks a lot Bill D and others for your comments! I hope to have a New Year's update of a much higher number. Until then, Merry Christmas and God Bless all of you!

Rebuck,
Please consider NOT USING a stocking 'KIT' With the specifics of your pond, the goals of your specific fishery, and the experts here, you need to craft a specific stocking customized for you. Not a KIT!

The kit benefits the person selling the fish and often includes 'filler' and unwanted predators and leads to lots of balance problems with populations later.

Share with us your plans and the kit you ordered please.

I second the motion of your not using a Stocking Kit. Stocking packages will often not produce your goals.

Rebuck,

I third the motion....

Now that I've been on the forum for awhile and read A LOT, I offer this as food for thought. IMHO I also would recommend that you think about what your goals for the pond are first. Want to catch big LMB, or big BG, or have diversity so something is always biting, etc? Once you have figured out the "what kind of fishing you want part" then start thinking about what forage is needed to support that goal. My advice is get the goal in your mind then stock forage that will support that goal and provide habitat that will support that forage. Get that forage and habitat established first. After an appropriate time and the forage base is there, stock your fish that you'll be targeting angling. The pros here will guide you thru a custom stocking plan if you let them know what you want. I can pretty much guarantee that will not match up to a KIT.

As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of just stocking pellet trained fish and setting up feeders to sustain the pond. I'm a fan of supplemental feeding pellets though, if you choose to, for your entertainment and perhaps to fill a few forage gaps. I want my pond to thrive even if there are no pellets around. Downside of not primarily feeding your fish pellets is your fish will grow slower in the short term (but may live longer) and you can't have as many. Lots for you to consider!

I'm not a pro, just my 1 cent.

Good Luck! Exciting time for you I know!

Merry Christmas and God Bless to you and yours as well!

Bill D

WOW, I wasn't expecting the "no kits" discussion. Thank you so much. I never even thought of going any other way. Back when I started digging I called the somewhat local guy and asked what he had. He said he sells a kit and suggests that over anything due tot he savings and such.

He was very helpful, I mean very, and spent a lot of time on the phone with me trying to explain why the kit is constructed the way it is. I have young kids so I want to fish with them at this pond and I don't mind sunnies and blue gills but there has to be something else too. LMB would be great, especially big ones, maybe catfish, maybe even trout since my pond will be about 15' deep and spring fed. I will post what this guy has in his kits and we will go from there. I don't want to post the name of the supplier but its central PA and I can tell you there has been many people around here happy with what they got from this guy. Let me know what you think.

Put in what YOU want. Not what he suggests.

There are very few recipes in any recipe book that starts out with 'throw all the ingredients in at the same time and mix'

My biggest red flag is that stocking multiple predators at once creates a built in problem with balance, which predator is the dominant predator? How do you know?

Also, it seldom is wise to stock predators until the forage base is huge and DIVERSE. If it takes a year or 2 of patience to develops your forage then how can it be right to buy a 'kit' no matter how good intentioned the seller is, (unless it is a forage kit)

It is like when mixing paint, once you mix in the dark colors, it takes an enormous amount of light colored paint to back the color a shade lighter, once the dark pigment is in.

If you run out of forage it takes enormous effort to get it back in, or you have to nuke the pond and start over.

I found a very interesting flyer posted on a web page of a supplier in your state. (I'm not so interested in who your supplier is but found the information interesting/controversial) From the pictures of their 'up to date fleet' of trucks the flyer looks like it needs an update. But there are some interesting concepts introduced in the flyer that we might all learn from.

I like the idea of using a bale of hay to act as a daphnia feeding station and hadn't read about that on this forum.

Their theory on crayfish was very unusual to read as well.

There are also discussions on this forum on how to build a spawning bed. This PDF file below offers a unique entry for sale, a spawning 'disk' which I found interesting. This might be a good way to repurpose flying saucer sleds or even old satellite dishes!!

Zett booklet Info
lots of info here...

The link reads like they are the only ones who know anything, and every other "fish place" is polluted or something else not good. The package they recommend goes against any recommendation I have seen posted by the more knowledgeable people on this forum. Reading their pamphlet gives me bad feelings about them.

As with most things, there are a lot of differing opinions on how to stock a pond. I found this recommendation from a fish farm in the North East interesting...

(Largemouth)Bass should be stocked at a rate of 75-100 fish per acre along with a forage fish. We recommend fathead minnows and/or crayfish. The minnows should be stocked at a rate of no less than 1000 per acre and a rate of 5000-10,000 per acre is ideal. The crayfish should be stocked at a rate of at least 400-500 per acre. These numbers should be increased if there is already an established bass population in the pond. With the exception of black crappie we do not recommend sunfish, such as bluegill, as a forage fish in northern regions. Because of the short growing season for bass in the north they are not able to keep up with much more prolific sunfish. Eventually the sunfish will take over the pond without intense management. Crappie do not spawn as prolifically as other sunfish so therefore it's easier for the bass to keep their numbers in check. Yellow perch may be another option as a second forage fish although they have been known to take over a pond now and again. Crappies and/or perch are a great option if you enjoy ice fishing.

So below is what is in the kit. I think it would be neat to have all these different fish but should I not buy them all at once? Should the smaller ones be bought now? Does anyone have a suggestion to start?

I posted this yesterday but it didn't make it on the page. If it was removed due to some violation, I am sorry.

(for 1/4 to 1 acre pond)
•Daphnia Culture
•100 Crayfish
•25 Clams
•250 Trapdoor Snails
•100 Tadpoles
•1000 Minnows
•500 Blue Gills
•50 Breeder Shiners
•100 Channel Catfish
•100 Crappies
•100 Yellow Perch
•100 Large Mouth Bass
•5 Algae Eaters

total price $879.50

Special price $735.00

I have 7-8 foot of water now.... Is there something I could be stocking now or is the water too cold to start yet?

If there was a magic kit that produced good results, everyone would be using it. Ponds are complex ecosystems that require sequential steps to reach a desirable mature state in just a few years, and once mature, they require maintenance. Fortunately, this maintenance includes fishing and removing some of these fish! Get your stocking advice from someone that does not sell the stockers. While there are many great fish farms, why not avoid the conflict of interest?

It would be easier to start a stocking plan fit to your specific needs, than to criticize all that is/might be wrong with that list.

The fish growing booklet has many opinions and the authors are entitled to their opinions. These are some of my opinions. Note that the above "Kit" is suggested for any pond 0.25 to 1 acre pg6. Wrong IMO on several topics. As I again read through this familiar and updated booklet, there continue to be IMO MANY biased statements used to sell their products. Not enough time now to cover all of them.

All fish farms realize carrying capacity and to recommend the same "Kit" for a 0.2 ac and a 1 ac pond is pure salesmanship. Be very wary of someone promoting this philosophy.
Firstly - impounded water has a natural carrying capacity that determines how many pounds of fish it will grow/support, very similar to the practices of agriculture or your garden. The capacity can be increased several ways - by technical correct defination of eutrophication "polluting" it or eutrophication as they stated in the above Fish Farm Booklet pg36- manually adding extra copper sulfate and harsh chemicals. Technical definition of eutrophication includes mainly the addition of nutrients that are also present in fish food. Zetts booklet highly promotes nutrient fertlizer. They distort the true meaning of eutrophication.

Secondly- On one page they say southern bream (pg4) which technically includes bluegill are not beneficial in northern ponds and then later they strongly promote their BG in the "Kit". What does this tell you?

Thirdly - There are several "holes" in their philopsophy (pg6) of yearly adding their Daphnia culture which is similar to adding fatheads each year to an established fish community - not productive. This philosophy largely benefits the seller and not the buyer. Basic animal or wildlife management is - provide the proper habitat the the community will reproduce, thrive and not need annual supplimental stocking unless the goal or plan requires it. Similar to using Bg as forage. If your pond does not maintain perpetual populations or fatheads or Daphnia then something is missing from the habitat or from your plan if your goal is to always have or need fatheads or Daphnia. If there is a ecological balance in your pond, your fish community does not always need short term additions of fatheads or Daphnia for the sportfish to thrive. Other items can serve the purpose of fatheads or Daphnia. Maybe your pond is out of balance thus adequate forage is in short supply?

All ponds have a natural zooplankton community. The structure and species composition of the zooplankton community is largely governed by the predators and habitat i.e. fish - vegetation - chemistry. Their hay bale concept is weak. Daphnia and larger crustacean zooplankton do not feed on the straw-hay. Hay is an organic material similar to tree leaves that will decay and create a bacteria-protozoan culture. All ponds have myrids of organic materials in various stages of decay that create the conditions for bacteria - protozoa and ultimately "Daphnia" type foods. Bacteria are primarily decomposers while protozoans and zooplankton are primarily micro-particle filter feeders.

Fourthly - Trap door snails (pg 29) are and exotic species, an invasive species, and provide little if any benefit to a regular sport fish community. Trap door snails have many more disadvantages than benefits in a sport fish pond. IMO they are turning their invasive trapdoor lemons into lemonade that actually is doing overall harm by helping spread this exotic invasive nuisance snail species that the fish farm received in a shipment of fish. They also sell red swamp crayfish that are not allowed for sale in their own state of PA. PA does not allow them to sell crayfish to customers in PA.

Fiftly the booklet says people that write aquaculture books never raised fish for a living and sell stupid unnecessary dishonest equipment to people pg 37. They go on to say to have healthy fish they must be raised in soil bottom ponds. Wrong, wrong.

Lastly for today -Their spawning disks (pg50) are a good concept if the fish require a special substrate for spawning, especially when the pond is full of muck, sludge, or unconsolidated silt and the pond lacks a firm bottom or sand, gravel for fish spawning. An economical kids snow saucer or bottom of a barrel filled with proper size sand, gravel, stone can serve the same purpose.

I could spend all day elaborating on the biased statements in the fish farm sales booklet. Be cautious of what you blindly believe. Get second opinions from proven facts.

I about choked when I read in their stocking kit that for a 1/4 acre pond they figure 100 catfish would be good!!! If that is really how they sell their fish kits they really should include a free gallon of rotenone (the agent of choice needed to kill everything in the pond and start over) This will be needed sooner or later once the 100 catfish take over everything else!!

There are tons of posts on PB about where catfish fit in the scheme of stocking but I would say the majority of the folks wish they could get them out or at least control them from being the apex predator.

To really know what in the stocking kit is helpful or not helpful you have to let us know if your goal is a BG heavy pond with the goal being large BG, or your goal is to grow large LMB. If so then you need to have think about the forage base for LMB and how to control LMB numbers.

Several on this forum are experimenting with SMB as the apex predator in a small pond and are finding advantages to SMB over LMB, but it appears that is not an option at your fish seller's web page.

If you truly have the luxury of having a pond that is a blank slate, please ask for your money back and explain that you want to stock your pond in stages.

Spend the next growing season doing forage, forage forage. I can't speak to daphnia or snails except to say that I have invasive ones in my pond and wish I didn't. The native snails will find their way to your pond in most cases and therefore many people source a small number or RES or pumpkinseeds to help keep the snails in check and to give variety in sunfish angling. The RES are not as prolific either so are a bit easier to manage (although harder for young people to catch).

Plan your forage base, FHM for sure with structure for them to survive in, GSH should be OK, search for other forage lines that won't survive if you stock them later (due to predators being in place) and get them in now. Research all the different types of shiners, mudminnows, darters, dace, lake chubsuckers, etc.

Native crayfish are OK, but they can explode and erase any vegetation that might be establishing and without predators you then might have a barren, muddy pond till predators go in (down the road). Crayfish might be OK to stock later.

We aren't trying to be critical, we are thrilled that you have the opportunity to do it in steps and want you to be one of the happy ones rather the ones that come and say I have too many of this or not enough of that, or too many stunted fish and really all we can do is tell you to nuke and start over...

Hey guys, thanks again. I never gave these people a dime! I don't need to ask for my money back. I also have a pond with ZERO fish in it. It's a little over 1/2 full at 90 inches. Some frogs have found their way in. I have seen a few crayfish. Even had a duck, eagle and herring floating or flying around. I am slowly increasing about 1/8" per day. If it rains I increase about double the rain fall unless it's a downpour, then I get lots. I got like 7 inches from the last inch.

I want a place to picnic, clean water to swim..... Maybe something always biting for all levels of anglers. So BG's or sunnies are needed for little kids that come. I would like some other bigger fish. Maybe trout, cat fish, LMB..... I don't know much about crappie or perch.

I have ZERO structure. I was told to throw Christmas trees in spots to help with that.

I can't thank you guys enough for the help. Is there a good book that would elimate a few of my stupid questions?

Your questions are never stupid. Pond management is a learning curve and we are here to help you learn. Ask all questions you want. Someone here will provide good answers. One of my tasks is to make sure the answers are reasonable, fair, and knowlegable, etc.. If you want fish structure, read through the lengthy thread in the Common Q&A Archives. It has lots of homemade structure ideas.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463

The fish farm discussed used to grow and sell smallmouth but finally discovered they are not easy to consistently produce on a commercial basis. They often had to go to other hatcheries for their smallmouth. Almost all fish farms buy some of their stocker fish esp catfish, HSB, grass carp, HBG, often RES and some other species. Hicklings Fish Farm in NY does sell high quality smallmouth.

Good book? Check the archive threads for previous common pond questions. I may put your/this thread in the archives as a topic for new pond info. The discussion of fish stocking kits is esp informative for new pond people.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=22&page=1
Read about hybrid bluegill(HBG) in the archive thread.