Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose New Projects

Lots going on this past season, just little time to update the forum due to football coaching and busy season for work. Here's an update, appreciate any feedback.

Main pond:

Coontail - Over the past 3 years have developed coontail - been spot treating with AquatholSK each year keeps expanding. Decide to really nuke it hard this Spring and treated all areas multiple times. Ended up killing all ancillary "beneficial" vegetation [various pondweeds] and water quality suffers substantially. Dense phytoplanton blooms, visibility reduced from 5' to 24", no vegetation regrowth, getting super nervous with hot days head. Installed emergency surface aeration from Condello [thank you!!!], cut down feeding times significantly, kept my fingers crossed. Good news, no fish kills. Bad news, coontail kept growing, but no other vegetation seemed to be able to get re-established, so dense blooms continued.

Worked with Kelly and we're planning fluridone treatment as early as possible this Spring [water temps low 60s] in hopes to get the coontail early and enable beneficial vegetation to come back. Still very nervous, coontail seems to be my nemesis.

Installing aeration system this Spring to help improve water quality and reduce risk of fish kill.

Erosion/siltation - Over the years banks have eroded to a degree based on wind action creating some shallow water and obviously bank damage. Have allowed the pond to drop 3 feet to facilitate access for excavator to increase depth around shorelines and restore to 2:1 slopes around 550' of North and South sides of pond. Following excavation will also be installing 10 x 2' hollow core concrete planks to edges to eliminate erosion in future. Contractor has access to these free as they are defects - just facing transport costs. Not sure how they'll look, but they'll be mainly underwater and should look better than broken concrete. Will post photos of the process.



YP/BG pond: This .25 acre pond used to serve as my SMB reproduction pond and was excavated to a depth of 9-10' 3 years ago for a female YP/male BG trophy fishery. Stocked with FHM, grass shrimp, Northern crayfish and implemented pellet program. I've experienced multiple issues on this fishery since the project started.

Iteration 1

The good: Created self sustaining population of FHM and crayfish. BG WR average 115 with some fish approaching 1.5#. Zero YP reproduction, sex ID successful.

The bad: On my first effort, crayfish population exploded and denuded the pond of all vegetation and algae and pond became turbid with visibility reduced to 12-18". No predators present with gape to utilize adult crayfish as forage and could not keep up with reproduction. No vegetation and grass shrimp population nearly eliminated. YP would pellet feed in Spring then shut down until Fall. WR for YP were sub 100, could not understand due to abundance of FHM and pellets. Trapped FHM and sampled YOY BG - obviously made an error sexing BG.

The fix: Drained, seined and nuked pond. Removed six 5G buckets of crawfish, caged 95 YP and 130 BG from pond, refilled and decided to sex BG and YP in following Spring to ensure 100% correct more evident during spawn. Over Winter mink accessed cages and cleaned out 1 cage of BG, 25% of another BG cage, and 50% of YP. Adult BG in cage too dense developed bacterial infection in eyes had to treat with Lusk help medicated feed, lost another 12 trophy fish to infections. Eventually restocked 75 male BG and 50 female YP in Spring to trophy pond plus grass shrimp, FHM and just a FEW crayfish to help control vegetation plus 2 adult SMB to help keep crayfish population managed.

Iteration 2

The good: BG continue feeding and growing average WR 125. Continue adding male BG with promising characteristics to increase population back to 120-130. Continue adding female YP to return population to 90-100.

The bad: YP wr still low, won't pellet feed over Summer. Can't understand why they aren't they growing with dense FHM population. Crayfish population getting away from me again, turbidity increases only 12-18" visibility again and zero vegetation. Spring 2016 warm spell in May results in partial YP fish kill. Feeling stupid.

The fix:

This fall made 2" siphon and drained, seined removed BG - good news, no YOY BG so ID was successful this time. Only 3 YP made it through Spring fish kill, but noticed YOY YP, so made a mistake on ID for the YP this time. Well done! Removed everything valuable and nuked. Failed twice with YP - abandoning the project. Refilled pond, restocked with adult BG in cage, all FHM I could save from seining, stocked grass shrimp and NO crayfish. Stocked original 2 SMB into pond just in case of burrowed crayfish...can't go through that again.

New goals: YP are not performing well with the BG due to factors beyond my estimation. This pond will now serve as a trophy male lepomis fishery. In Spring 2017 will sex 75 male HBG, 25-50 feed trained male RES, and 50-75 feed trained male BRES to add to 100 male BG population. Will continue Optimal feeding program. Goals are to grow all species to 10"+ average WR 125+.

Pond Expansion - New Fishery Project

Expanded .15 ac reproduction cell to .75/1 acre with max depth 14'. Fishery goal is trophy female YP and WE. Stocking plan: FHM and BNM Spring 2017. 250 female YP Fall 2017, 50-75 advanced WE [12-15"] Fall 2017.

Questions on new fishery [Cody/Yolk!!!]: Should I stock some RES in Spring 2017 to hammer snails and add a little forage? What impact would HBG have on fishery?

Are my YP numbers [250]sustainable with help of pellet program? Will supplementally stock to cover harvest.

What about WE max population I can support in a pond this size? I will supplementally stock annually to cover harvest.

What's the ideal forage base for a YP/WE fishery?

I have some PVC tree structure created for this fishery I can install...is it necessary to do so? If so, some ideas for best depth placement?

Thanks all for your feedback in advance!

Wow TJ!

You've got a lot going on!

Question on the crayfish. Do you think the result would have been different if you had stocked the smaller Papershell craws instead of the Northern craws: maybe keeping the adult craws within the mouthgap of your predators?

Questions on new fishery [Cody/Yolk!!!]: Should I stock some RES in Spring 2017 to hammer snails and add a little forage? What impact would HBG have on fishery?
TJ- I think BillD's suggestion about using papershell crays instead of northern crayfish could be important when the focus is panfish as predators. Northern crays would be better than papershell with bass as predators. I have seen YP grow well with water transparency of 14"-24".

A lot is still unknown about growing yellow perch. Still a lot to learn. Your experiences are helping develop more baseline information. Stocking RES to eat snails with YP, IMO will depend on the species of snail. YP eat some species of snail better than other species. I think small RES as YP forage will not be as beneficial as fatheads or another small minnow. I am not sure how well HBG will co-habitate with YP. To my knowledge not a lot has been with this combination. IMO HBG will work better with YP if one is not trying to grow trophy YP. I don't think YP will be effective in controlling recruitment of HBG. My experience is that YP will maintain a higher YP biomass when there are fewer or not other species of panfish present and reproducing to occupy standing crop.

It is common for the larger YP to progressively reduce feeding activity as water temps climb above 80F. However I think your YP's lack of growth and low RW is puzzling. Where were your original stockers from and what was their genetic stock? Any idea how long their lineage or ancestry had been domesticated?. Both are pretty important items when trying to grow trophy perch.

Green sunfish ruined my YP fishery in terms of recruitment and suppressing minnow populations. I am starting over with all female YP. We can compare notes as both fisheries progress.

I suspect papershells would have been easier to manage, however crayfish been removed from the equation on both the trophy lepomis fishery and the YP/WE pond - just not necessary as forage and my experiences have been poor thus far lacking an apex predator capable of population management. Just not worth the risk at this point.

Cody - plan is to stock the YP/WE fishery with FHM and BNM, wanted the RES present as additional target species for angling and to help manage snail population. I will skip the HBG - RES seem easier to manage.

YP genetics are NE based - I've grown 14.5" fish from these genetics in the main pond, so the pedigree is there. They simply never seemed to flourish in the BG/YP pond - still a mystery to me. I'm hopeful with zero competition for pellets with only RES and WE as companion species they may perform better. Also, access to deeper water in my new pond [14'] may help them seek cooler water when/if necessary than the smaller more shallow BG/YP pond where they used to be [9'].

TJ:

I would throw a half dozen single sex SMB in that 1/4 acre pond to chow down on the crayfish. Since you aren't looking for reproduction from the other fish, you have no worries about them predating on the YOY.

Redears could work okay with the YP-WE plan. Expect the RES to cause some reduction of the YP production - how much is unknown. Keep us updated about this new stocking adventure.

If your YP do not perform as expected in the new stocking arrangement, then I think we can refocus on the pedigree and its domestication history. The strain may not be well adapted to pond life with summer water temperatures, thus their evidence for lack of pellet feeding during much of the warmest part of the summer. It is my understanding that the NE strain of YP is historically not considered to achieve trophy status as frequently as those of the Great Lakes. C.Baird, myself and a few others have grown YP to 16" with reports of an occasional 17"er.

The amount or degree of same and different species competition interaction is hard to measure in ponds; plus every pond tends to be different. It is all about trying to maintain some sort of balance to achieve a specific goal. The real trick to a high quality fishery is to use species that are well suited together or co-habitate well together to fully utilize the habitat. I think the more fish species involved in a pond the more balls that need to be juggled for all to stay controlled in the air.

The pond was drained and seined and crays removed, although some might have burrowed into banks when we dropped the water level.

Bill great points...the YP underachieving is still a mystery to me as they perform well in a pond only 300' away, but that pond has abundant vegetation and access to far more depth.

Seems that I no longer have any crawdads burrowing since a few of my CC have reached 5#.

deleted. Didn't mean to try to hijack thread.

Tj, if it makes you feel better my YP have not done very well in my 1/4 acre pond too, they don't take pellets during the warm water months either. My guess is that the smaller volume of water and slightly higher water temps during the summer months is the primary culprit. Competition for groceries from my more warm water tolerant RES and GSH and the lack of a cooler water refuge just adds to the stress. I will say tha aeration at night seems to have helped this year.

Steve that's been my experience through two iterations of the small water YP project over the past 4 years. Fish caught during Summer were low WR [85-95] and just didn't seem as though they were eating ANYTHING. Pond was teeming with FHM - still can't explain the poor performance. Fish in main pond meanwhile are doing well. The only differences are presence of macrophytes, water clarity, and increased depth of main pond which may mean access to cooler water/less stress during the dog days of Summer. I'm hopeful YP will perform better in the new pond which is nearly 1 ac, 14' depth, and should have plenty of vegetation present as I won't be repeating the crayfish experiment, although I wonder if 50-75 WE would be able to manage a N crayfish population...not worth it. I really don't want to drain seine and nuke again.

I am vegetation free as well and my water clarity has not been very good all year due to heavy rains rather than the presence of crayfish. I do think having some aquatic vegetation provides shade which in turn provides cool water refuge areas. Heck I don't even have filamentous algae to provide shade, my GSH think FA is tasty. What type of vegetation are you going to try and establish?

I suspect it will simply come naturally as it does in all my ponds - Illinois pondweed, Arrowhead, Baby/Sago pondweed, and maybe Chara. I'm hopeful the coontail remains below in the main pond.

Cool thread TJ. Great observations on the good, the bad, and the ugly of pond management. I've given thought to posting a year end summary myself. To me at least, the journey is as important as the results.

Oh, please don't post about YP anymore. One of the very few fish I covet.

Al, before getting on PB, I had never heard of a YP.

Nor had I Dave, but damn they are pretty fish.

Dave, I caught one at Lake Erie and TJ and Josh showed me the secret YP handshake. That's all I can tell you about that.

Not to hijack TJ's thread, but considering the huge role he played in putting my little puddle together, I thought it might be appropriate to add our stockings so far, and the early results.

YP - 18 males/12 females - Spring 2013
RES (~300) - Summer 2013
BNM (~200) - Fall 2013
FHM (~2000) - Fall 2013
SFS (~200) - Fall 2013
Crayfish - Fall 2014
PK Shrimp - Fall 2014
SMB (50) - Fall 2015
HSB (20) - Fall 2015
WE (35) - Fall 2015
GSH (~200) - Fall 2015
HSB (20) - Spring 2016
WE (35) - Spring 2016

From that stocking, you can see the original YP, and even their offspring, FHM, BNM and SFS got a big jump before serious predators were introduced. Crayfish were adults. They're too big to be preyed upon themselves, but imagine their offspring are getting hammered. Traps have only netted adult sizes. RES are a mystery to me. Caught plenty in good health last year. Only two this year. Probably just not figuring out what they're eating yet. Feeding has been hit and miss. It's been working most of the year, but had to occasionally change or manually charge the battery, so lost a little feeding time here and there. I see some feeding activity, but not near as much as I'd like.

Anyway, results so far:

YP - numerous - sizes usually good, smaller ones being caught less frequently now. Most in 10-13" range, with one of the original females being caught recently that was nearly 17"!

SMB - few caught every trip, varying in size, but all very healthy footballs.

WE - few caught now, all approaching or exceeding 15", double the size they were stocked a year ago.

RES - only two caught this year, and not incredibly impressive condition like they had been the past couple years.

HSB - caught one, approaching 15", very healthy.

Many small schools of fry.

I think it's still too early for me to conclude anything from these observations, but have a couple theories.

1. Forage base, as advised by TJ, Cody and Travis, is diverse and thriving. While traps have only netted small YP and crayfish, I see schools throughout the pond, in nearly every corner. Considering the early growth of the predators (extremely surprised at the WE growth), I think they're finding plenty to eat in nearly every crevice they look. I don't have a dock yet, so don't have a good way to sample crevice spawning species, as advised by Cody. With plenty of rocky structure throughout, I imagine they're finding a way.

2. I think the larger predators are finally helping out with the YP population. I'm seeing fewer and fewer small YP and attribute this to the predators reaching growth that puts a 3-5" fish right in their wheelhouse. I've tossed a few YP in this size range on a hook and caught SMB and WE with them, so not only do I think they're utilizing them as another forage option, I think it might even be one of their favorite options.

I've been hesitant to lay out these "results", as I'm well aware how early it is for my pond, and defer these findings to the real experts who've helped along the way. I'm just now enjoying the years of work and research. Just been taking kids out to catch a few fish away from the hubbub of public lakes, and exposing them to different species than they normally catch around here.

Josh,
What size BOW do you have? Could that one of the differences?

How many 29" WE did we catch that trip...and that yellow perch was still one of the better catches in my opinion.



Just shy of an acre, so significantly smaller than TJ's main pond. While my puddle is tailored off of this, we did some tweaks here and there based off my personal goals and TJ's experiences with his. Early results indicate we might have done something right.

TJ, did you try trapping the crayfish and either selling them or relocating them to you big pond with bigger predators to reduce the population in the small pond and supplement the big pond with extra food?

LOL, good question Bobby - yes, set 5 traps for crays daily x 4 years. Could never remove enough. First seining we removed five 5G buckets full of crays - some buddies got some, my neighbor also appreciated my weekly deliveries as he loves cooking with them.

that amazing, were the traps full constantly? or you just didn't catch that many in the traps?

Some of the biggest crays I've ever seen too.

10-12 crays per trap every 3-4 days. It was as though the pond was built on a crayfish portal...I couldn't believe I never got in front of their population.