I am having test holes dug next week to see if it's feasible to build another pond closer to the house than the current pond. This area has good watershed to support the possibility of a pond up to about 1/2 acre. It's in the creek bottom (not in the usual flood plain), so I don't know what to expect, but the creek bottom in that area is eroded down to pure orange clay. Not doing it if it looks like a possible leaker. I cannot find anyone with a sheepsfoot roller around here who contracts to individuals, so it's the dozer to dig and backhoe tires to pack if we decide to do it.
Would a roller as used by a asphalt company do better than tires from a backhoe? Since the proper tool seems hard to find, I wonder if it would be easier to get access to a roller since most places have construction crews with rollers (either roller in front, wheels in back, or the kind with rollers in front and back).
Construction crews around here don't contract out to individuals for small jobs. They do public works and subdivision projects. They won't even talk about a 5K job. That's why I have to go with a guy who has just a medium sized dozer and backhoe, or just forget about it.
I think adequate moisture is very important in compacting clay, especially without a roller. When my original pond was renovated, the clay for the new part of the dam had been stockpiled and was too dry to compact properly. I think it should hold now that it was thoroughly wetted by the pond being filled, and since has dried out and settled since the pond is now three feet low, and doesn't leak at the current stage. The former soft spots are now hard. When my minnow pond was built late last fall, the soil was wetter, and it doesn't leak at all. The new pond, if built, will have a minimal dam, and will be mostly dug out. The location is a current bowl shaped low spot in the hay field, where water will stand for a couple of days after a hard rain. The topsoil is about 18 inches deep down to clay, determined from hand dug test holes. We will probe around more with a backhoe before deciding whether to proceed.
Update: We dug test holes today with a backhoe and there is two to three feet of gravely overburden under the 12 inches or so of clean top soil. Below that, there is rocky clay with average six inch rocks. My pond builder agreed we would have to haul away most of the overburden, or have a big eyesore. The pond would more likely than not leak. It is a no-go, we have decided. The other place we could build a pond that would definitely work and has good clay is right below and directly east of the existing pond, but is too far from the house (600 ft) to have good aesthetics. We wanted to see the water from our back porch and be close enough to run aeration, etc.
That's too bad John. I know you really wanted the new pond. Just a thought, any chance you could get the clay from the site 600 feet from the house to seal the pond closer to the house. Maybe fill the hole you took the clay from with the stuff you dig out of the closer pond site? Or maybe just have 3 ponds!
We are thinking about doing the new one at the site 600 feet from the house, but it probably couldn't be more than about 1/8 acre and 8 feet deep. I suppose one could raise about 25 good CC in that? Anyway it's still in the debate stage. Small size and too far from the house to have good control are our main concerns. Here is a Google Earth pic. The existing ponds are to the left. The failed site is circled in red. A new, smaller pond could be built to the east (right) in a triangle with the existing ponds. It is higher and the clay is very good there. The house is where the yellow markers are, so you can see our dilemma.
I still think I would consider digging the pond where I want it and taking the clay from the other area on the property to seal it. It seems more often than not, when I read a pond building article in PBM, somewhere in the article it says, "We found good clay in another location on the property and used that to seal the pond." I feel your pain and lots of factors to consider, coins involved is a big one. IMO, I would call up one of the pros like Mike Otto and just have a little discussion before proceeding. It sure would be nice if you could put the pond where you really want it.
Too much $$ to move that clay and overburden. We are going out with the level, rod, and tape tomorrow, weather permitting, and survey out the other site next to the existing pond, on the east side. We know we can go down there at least six feet and still be in solid clay that looks like brick clay. If the site will allow a five foot tall foot dam in addition, then we might get a nine foot deep pond about 90 x 100 feet. Just speculating until we lay it out with level and tape measure. I will keep the forum posted if many would be interested in the building of such a small pond.
Edit: We laid it out with the level, rod, and tape. It works out to about a 95 ft x 130 ft oval. The dam will only be about 5 feet high at highest point, allowing for two feet of freeboard, but very wide and probably 6:1 or better slope on the back side, average height about three feet. Mostly be a dug out pond. We want the dam to be easy to mow.
Here's a conception of what it should look like. The new pond is highlighted to the right of the existing ponds. The black lines are the overflow spillway paths.
Last edited by John F; 12/01/1608:54 PM. Reason: added image
Have you considered a RES and CC pond? They would occupy two different niches of the pond and the RES are not so prone to over population like BG are. I find they are much easier to catch (though still not as easy as BG) when they are in a pond without the competition of the BG getting to the hook first.
I added this thread to my list of specialty ponds I keep because of the smaller size it will be. I really enjoy my two small ponds of 1/10th and 1/20th acre. I think you will find you can do a lot with a well managed 1/8th acre.
Have you considered a RES and CC pond? They would occupy two different niches of the pond and the RES are not so prone to over population like BG are. I find they are much easier to catch (though still not as easy as BG) when they are in a pond without the competition of the BG getting to the hook first.
I added this thread to my list of specialty ponds I keep because of the smaller size it will be. I really enjoy my two small ponds of 1/10th and 1/20th acre. I think you will find you can do a lot with a well managed 1/8th acre.
Yes, I have. I think it will be CC, RES, and FHM. Hopefully about 1/6 acre, maybe as much as 1/4 acre. But, if the existing pond runs over, it may get some BG. I think the way the watershed is, if I don't let the existing pond get too full, overflows may only rarely occur.
The RES might struggle if the CC get any size to them. However with a smaller pond like yours, you might be able to drain it down every other year and harvest the biggest cats that have been uncatchable. I would build a cage, put it in your bigger pond, and when you drain it save the RES to the cage till the small pond fills up again.
Best wishes on the new pond. It's always a fun/enjoyable time.
I was pondering if maybe the CC would provide enough predator control for the RES. Maybe John can tell us in about 5 years.
By then the other pond will have run over and we will have BG in the new pond below it. I am thinking of not having bass in the larger (1/4 ac, 11 ft deep) pond and letting the large albino channel cats I am raising be the predators. But, I guess they won't eat many fish if I continue to feed them pellets. Might get 6 or 8 four to six inch LMB, still don't know for sure.
But, I guess they won't eat many fish if I continue to feed them pellets.
I don't know about that. It might be something like LMB, where they say that once they get larger, pellet size has to increase too. I would guess that once a CC gets 3# or bigger, they will prefer a BG over a pellet. Mine don't seem to feed on pellets anymore.
Topsoil is being stripped off in first pic. Was not far down to nearly pure clay. Second pic, excavating. Might take a couple more days. Clay is hard and shiny when scraped by the dozer blade. Almost pottery clay. Has to be ripped with the rear ripper on the dozer before much can be peeled out. Very compact.
Progress made by early this afternoon. Still in pure brick quality clay. Very compact clay, and hard to dig in.
It looks like it's going to be between 1/5 and 1/4 of an acre. Shooting for 8.5 foot depth over at least 20%. About 75 percent will be excavated. Only about 2.5 feet of water behind the dam at the highest point.
Wish I had a ripper on the back of my dozer. It is equipped with an auxiliry valve to control it. Just need the mechanical ripper part. Would make moving dirt easier in really tough going.
See no reason it will not as long as you have some good clay. Even without a sheepsfoot if the clay is good, it might seep slowly for a year or two but I would think eventually seal up with settling. Now if you have gravel veins or other junk, then you could have a problem.
It would seem to me a long term problem is where the soil is marginal and there is some specific pathway that the water flow can keep open. If it is just an overall seep through clay without enough flow in any one place to keep the finer particles washed out (in other words no erosion taking place) it would seem to me that eventually the seep will fill up with clay particles. Heck a water line under pressure with a pipe fitting that is seeping will eventually fill up and stop with calcium in the water in our neck of the woods. Not if the leak is fast enough to prevent particles from clogging the hole, then it will not.
I'm for sure no expert John. But if you have good clay, and make sure if you hit any gravel or rock veins you have plenty of clay over it and do as good of job compacting with the equipment available I think it will be fine. It might take it a year or so to stabilize.
But I am just guessing. The only pond I have worked on (6 now) that leaks to enough of a degree that it is noticable is my daughters. It has a new portion, and old portion that was cleaned out, and an old portion that still held water. I don't know if the leak is in the new part I built because of inadequate compaction or the old part. The old part held water pretty good before the renovation. (Just remembered I had cleaned out the old part ten or fifteen years ago with my old D7 3T series cable machine Cat I had back then) But my suspition is in the old part of the dam where I took out a 30" daimeter dead elm tree could be the culprit. I dug as much of the roots out as I could, but since it still had about half full of water in the pond (can't drain water up hill - I tried and time was such pumping was not possible) so I know old roots were still in there. I also patched the old dam where I drained what I could so there are lots of potential places for leaks. The leak is not bad but her watershed is very marginal so the water drops a lot more than I like between substancial rains. Not much different than the situation you are in with your current pond or what some of the guys in Texas face, but it is the only pond I dug/cleaned out that did not turn out quite like I wanted.
Almost finished with inside of pond. Back side of dam needs grading and big pile of topsoil placed around, and a little cleanup of clods all around the inside and outside of pond. Need to raise the dam about 4 inches in one area about 40 feet long. We quit digging at just over 8 feet as we were starting to get a little bit of rock in the clay. Going to pack the bottom tomorrow with a very heavy wheeled tractor, but I don't think it will do much. The bottom clay is so hard that the newer grouser bars on the dozer hardly make an impression in it. A sheep's foot roller wouldn't make much of a dent either. The water line will only stand about 32 inches above natural ground on the low side at full pool, so there won't be a lot of pressure on the dam, which is much much wider than tall.
All finished. Packed down tight with a 18,000 pound 4wd tractor with nearly bald tires. Here's a few pictures. The stakes (if you can make them out) represent the full water line. There's about 14 inches of freeboard, a main grassy spillway, plus an auxiliary spillway four inches higher. It's just over 1/5 acre, 8 feet deep. Total cost was $2,735 as it sits right now, including the marking paint and stakes.
Neat thread John, I hope the pond works out well for you!
How are you determining the full water line? Is it from your spillway level?
Looking at my pond I don't have any idea what full pool will look like. I was thinking of taking a level and a laser out there to get a concept but I don't know how accurate that would be.
Snort Coffee is a podcast about goofy stuff. Hope to add ponding to my list of hobbies.
Neat thread John, I hope the pond works out well for you!
How are you determining the full water line? Is it from your spillway level?
Looking at my pond I don't have any idea what full pool will look like. I was thinking of taking a level and a laser out there to get a concept but I don't know how accurate that would be.
The full water line is determined from the lowest edge of the spillway. We used a laser level to determine water line and dam elevations all around the pond. The laser level we used is accurate to less than 1/8 of an inch over the distance across the pond. The pond at full pool is a rough oval about 130 feet by 105 feet. In my experience they don't stand at full pool most of the time. You don't have to use an expensive laser level to determine full pool. A regular telescopic level and rod will do; it only takes a lot more time, and two people, one at the level, and one with the rod. My pond builder has a high end laser level, so we used that. The wife and I laid out the pond initially with my relatively inexpensive telescopic level when studying its feasibility.
Thanks John, I'm thinking along the right lines. I have one of those relatively powerful pocket lasers that shoots like a mile that I expect to rig and I imagine it'll work well enough.
Snort Coffee is a podcast about goofy stuff. Hope to add ponding to my list of hobbies.
Thanks John, I'm thinking along the right lines. I have one of those relatively powerful pocket lasers that shoots like a mile that I expect to rig and I imagine it'll work well enough.
A good laser level with good level rod is a precision instrument accurate to small fractions of an inch at a couple of hundred feet. A decent manual telescopic type level, tripod and rod can be had for about $230, and will be good to about 1/4 inch in a hundred feet, plenty good for a pond.
A pocket laser rigged to a carpenter level would probably be off by at least a few inches in a hundred feet. I wouldn't trust it much as an accurate building level.
Update: The new pond now has just over 6 FOW in it and is spread out well over 1/8 acre already. Last weekend I stocked 45 six to eight inch CC, 35 two to three inch RES and about 150 FHM. Two big piles of brush and piles of rocks and bricks are in there.
Edit 3/21 - Now just about thirteen inches to go to reach full pool. I stretched the latest rain by diverting runoff from the creek with my 2" pump. I look at it as increasing my available watershed. A two inch rain effectively becomes as big a rain as I take time to pump.
New pond and 1.5 yr old renovated pond are both only 4" from being completely full. I hope the drought is over. Six inches rain so far in March, and more predicted this week.
Here's a pic showing all three ponds. The pic was taken from the west side of the 19 month old renovated pond. The FHM pond is on the left, new pond is in the center foreground. My house is the red brick near the top center of the pic. The two sheds are mine. The other houses are on lots sold off this place by the former owner. The creek is to the right.
Here's the new pond 4" from full. It's nearly crystal clear right now. No alum needed. I probably could see the bottom in the current max depth of 8 feet if I took a boat out.
All while approximating something similar to a rain dance.
![[Linked Image]](http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=11852&filename=I_subscribe_zps2qlyoyn2.gif)
and time was such pumping was not possible) so I know old roots were still in there. I also patched the old dam where I drained what I could so there are lots of potential places for leaks. The leak is not bad but her watershed is very marginal so the water drops a lot more than I like between substancial rains. Not much different than the situation you are in with your current pond or what some of the guys in Texas face, but it is the only pond I dug/cleaned out that did not turn out quite like I wanted. 
