Hi all,I'm hoping to get started on a new pond very soon,in High Ridge Mo.I'm working on trying to get a price now.Does anyone in my area know of a good pond builder,or bad ones I should stay away from?The pond will be at least a 1/2 acre,but hope it will be closer to 3/4 acre,and if I can I will try to push it to closer to a full 1 acre.150' long dam,20' high,with the water being about 15' deep,will give me an easy 1/2 acre.I know lots of things can determine the price,but does anyone have a guess at what a dam that size should cost to build? Thanks!Bob
The NRCS usually (or it does in Texas) keeps a list of dozer drivers who want to dig ponds. Of course, there is no qualifiers to be on the list so check a lot of references and go look at their work.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
I have talk with the MDC,and have read their pond hand book a lot over the last several months.They say you need to clear all stumps,rocks and such from the dam site,but you don't have to from the rest of the pond area,and that it may be best not to.I've also had an excavator tell me the same thing.What do yous think?
Bobbs, you want a clean, quality clay core on the dam...some rock can also be good as a binding substrate, but anything organic, like roots and stumps or vines, will rot, and leave holes for water to run through.
The clay core, and possibly all of the pond basin will need to be highly compacted, so FYI, tracks do NOT compact very well...you need wheeled earth movers or a sheepsfoot roller to do a good job. It will cost FAR less doing things right the first time than it will cost to correct cut corners later.
I personally am not a fan of the MDC...all state biologists I've met have only their personal ideals, or the state's interests in mind, and often could not care less about what the private land owner wants. NRCS agents are usually much better than the state. Be aware also, that some state services can cause your pond to become "waters of the state" and you can lose some control over your water.
Thanks,I've only talked to MCD on the phone,and they emailed me some info.Most of the info I learned from them was from their pond handbook on their website.I don't plan to involve them with it,but did learn a fair amont from the handbook.Thats where I learned about the Bottom Withdrawal Spillway that I hope to go with.I've had four excavators out to look at thing.The last one was about 2 weeks ago,he is the only one that walked around and looked at what I want done,but he still hasn't given me any type of pricing.The other three only wanted to stand at their truck and talk about it.One of them never gave me a price,the other two just told me what they want per day,but didn't seem to have much idea on what it might cost.One did say he didn't like the dirt in my area,because of being rocky,which doesn't make me feel good.I know the dirt is rocky and packs really hard,you have to use a pick to dig a hole.lol!
If I was building a pond, I would make durn sure I could run a sheepsfoot roller over the bottom, compacting it, adding 6"-8" of clay, re-compacting it with the sheepsfoot roller and doing it again 2-3 more times for a total of 4 layers compacted and knitted together.
That means cleaning out the pond bottom first.....
Take a look at a bathtub. It holds water Very, Very well, providing that the plug is in the drain. You don't want to build the pond, stock fish, etc., and realize that you didn't put the plug in the drain.........
Thank for all of the in put.A little more about my site,I want to dam up the lower end of a 800' wooded ravine.It's about 50' deep,about 75' wide and flat at the bottom,and then starts sloping up.The sides are alitte steep in the pond area,but not real bad.The sides are even steeper farther up the ravine.There is about 7 acres of watershed.From what I can see there is very little top soil in the area.
I'm not saying I'll have a choice,but if I do have a choice,would you guys choose for a wider or longer pond?I'm thinking longer would make it look bigger?
I'm not saying I'll have a choice,but if I do have a choice,would you guys choose for a wider or longer pond?I'm thinking longer would make it look bigger?
It's a trade off. More shoreline = more habitat for YOY fish. But if the pond is too narrow you won't be able to get the depth you need.
I'm not saying I'll have a choice,but if I do have a choice,would you guys choose for a wider or longer pond?I'm thinking longer would make it look bigger?
It's a trade off. More shoreline = more habitat for YOY fish. But if the pond is too narrow you won't be able to get the depth you need.
Thanks,I'm not sure where they will want to get the dirt from,but was thinking if they took more dirt from the far end instead of the sides,it would make it alittle longer and look bigger.I think it would stay well over a 100' wide until the very end.
Wider or Longer ?? if you have that option, why not do both? It's only money I would do what my budget would afford me to do.
I agree with you,it's only money,but my wife doesn't.lol!She don't care much about my pond.lol!We need a few more acres cleared,and some roads put in to build a house and pole barn,which will cost a lot of money,so she is only going to let me spend so much on a pond. How big of pond do you guys think my 7 acres of steep watershed can keep full?
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East Central Missouri 1 1/4 acre pond, build fall 2011 1/8 acre baitfish pond build fall 2022
I finally have something to update on this.We finally have someone working on clearing some of are land,including the area for my pond.He is going to dig some holes when he gets down in the pond site to look for clay,and clean things up enough so they can come up with a cost.He said he did find some clay while pushing trees down on top of the ridge and that we have enough land that we should be able to find enough clay.I won't hold my breath,but he did give me some hope.He needs to find good clay and give me a price that the wife won't get scared off and I'm good to go.lol!
Thanks Snrub!I went by my property after work and he had started clearing on the pond site.He was already gone for the day but I looked around and found some dirt that looked like it had clay in it.I could ball it up and throw it down hard on the ground and it would hold together.I hope that's a good sign. I was hoping for 15' deep,but what do you think I could get away with here in mid Missouri?The reason I ask is there is a few really large trees that I want to keep.I always thought they was well above where my shore line would be but now that he cleared things up some I'm not to sure,it looks pretty close. Every one I talked to about building the pond seemed to think they would rather not dig anymore than they had to under the water line.Do you think I could dig down a few extra feet to get my depth or do you think that might cause problems?I will ask my guy these questions,but I wanted to see what everyone else thought.
As long as you are digging in clay, you should be alright. On my latest pond, we quit digging when the clay started getting a little gravel in it...that was about six feet below ground level. We stopped there and compacted the bottom well. With the dam and excavation together, managed to get about 8 ft 5 inches of depth.
Thanks John!I did get to talk with my guy this morning and he talked like it wouldn't be to big of a deal to dig down a good ways.He said the top soil is really deep,so it sounds to me like he would have to dig down pretty deep anyway.He came out this morning but it had rained to much last night so he couldn't work.There was a few big puddles of water which I thought was a good sign,but he said he didn't really find any clay yet,but he said he really hadn't digged just to look for clay yet.I'm not sure what I was balling up yesterday,it looked like a dark gray colored clay to me.The weather forecast doesn't look good so it may be a while before I learn more,and I really want to learn more NOW!!!!lol!
It is my understanding that a mixture of clay and topsoil is the best. Clay has a high shrink to swell ratio. This gives it the property needed to swell up and seal, but can also crack when dried out because of the shrinkage.
So you do not have to have pure clay, just soil with a hih enough clay content to seal well.
If you have an old 5 gallon bucket, drill some holes in the bottom. Wet some of your suspect soil to where it will compact good. Compact with your fist or ax handle about 6" final depth in the bottom, running the clay up the sides just a little so a bowl forms in the bottom. Slowly fill the bowl portion with water and seen how well it holds. If you have water running out the bottom equals bad. Dry or just damp on the bottom means the compacted soil will hold water.
Thanks Snrub!I think I will try that.He showed me the red clay he found on top of the ridge when pushing trees,and he may just be looking for more of that.
I drilled about 30 1/4" holes in a bucket and got some dirt or should I say mud.lol!I tried packing it but I think it is to wet.I will let it set for a while and see if any of the moisture that was in it drains off and see if I can pack it more before I add water.Does it sound like I'm doing the test right.I was surprised to se there was still water standing in the holes when I went by tonight.
Bobbss, unless aerating the pond, water 6 feet deep or more will be toxic in the summers here, but you want at least 30% of the pond at an 8 foot depth for our typical winters for fish to survive well in. With a 7 acre "steep" watershed, you might sustain one acre, but 3/4 acre is more likely.
BTW, it's nice to have another new Missourian amongst us!
I've been playing with my bucket of mud and have been able to squish a little water out of it but not much.If I just let it set nothing really comes out.Am I right thinking that with it already being extra wet,that if it will hold water on top,that would be a better sign?
Clay cant be too wet or too dry in order to compact. If too wet, the clay gets like a waterbed, push down in one area, and it lifts in another. Too dry, and it just crumbles.
When you get your clay dried enough, it should be moldable, but not with a lot of ease. Put it in the bucket, compact well to about 2" thick and fill with water. Mark your water level and cover with a lid. Keep the bottom of the bucket a little off the floor so if it leaks, water can drain. Let it sit for a few days and see if the water level dropped much.
It will dry quicker if you will dump it out of the bucket, spread it out a little, then wait till the top of it whites off indicating drying. You want it moist enough you can make a ball but not so wet it works like play dough. When it is field dry about right, pack it into the bucket.
If it has too much organic matter and not enough clay it will loosen somewhat when you carefully place water in the bucket and leak. If it is going to make good pond liner material the bowl in the bucket will hold water quite a while. If you fill the bucket completely full, water may follow the plastic sides down. So just make a mini pond in the bucket (bowl shape) and fill to full pool of the mini pond bowl.
I was able to start my bucket test yesterday.I packed about 2" of dirt give or take a little in the bucket and added water.After about 15 hours later,this morning when I went to work it was dry under the bucket,and I didn't notice any water level drop.So it looks like I'm off to a good start.I also read about the truck door test on here and tried that and it passed,but I didn't use my truck.lol!I used a tank and a cabinet.
After 48 hours it's still holding pretty good with just a few drops of water under the bucket.I found and old email that the MCD sent me back when we first started looking at the land.It had a link to a soil map of our property.I didn't think it was of much help before,but when I looked at things this time I found more links giving a break down on the soil.I have 2 types of soil in my pond area,both are in Hydrologic Group D,which I think is good.Soil #1 the biggest area has soil that is at 0"-3" 13% clay,79% silt,8% sand.At 3"-11" 16% clay,80% silt,4% sand.11"-32" 33% clay,64% silt,3% sand.32"-68" 25% clay,67% silt,8% sand.68"-80" 24% clay,60% silt,16% sand.Soil #2 the smallest area is 0"-3" 14% clay,71% silt,15% sand.3"-9" 12% clay,72% silt,16% sand.9"-79" 68% clay,17% silt,15% sand.Soil #2 has a lot more clay but has way way way more rock and much larger ones.Am I right thinking that Soil #1 would be better than Soil #2?By the way my bucket test is with Soil #1 and would from the top 11".
The most "Good" clay in the Ozarks is often found on the eastern side of hills running north and south. For the best possible compaction, get a vibratory sheepsfoot or roller sheepsfoot and lay a 2' thick clay blanket in 6" lifts in the entire pool area, and a foot or two above the "full pool" mark. Be sure to have your pond builder save the top soils to lay back down over the disturbed areas just below, and all around the full pool area and seed as soon as possible....on the movers last pass, if possible. Seeding the entire pool area with annual rye, wheat and buck oats will really help reduce erosion and jump start the base of your food chain also.
Consider 2 books available on the site's main page...Bob Lusk's "Perfect Pond...Want One?" and Mike Otto's, "Just Add Water" Dig and build things right the first time may cost 10-20% more sometimes, but I can guarantee trying to fix a leak after water has entered, will cost triple or more the original costs.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/18/1708:45 AM. Reason: spell edit
Thanks Rainman,I've been considering getting one of those books and probably will.The hill side with the cleaner clay (less rocks) is a east side,maybe a little bit north east.I'm hoping the rain holds off so he can get back out and finish clearing.The pond area is about 75% cleared but I'm sure it will be awhile before the pond will get started.After he gets it cleared so he can see what it will take to build the pond,they have to work on a plan and price.He also has a big job he has to start after he gets our clearing done.That will give me a chance to get some of the trees cut up and the brush piles burned so he has more room to work.
Well it's been a week since I started my bucket test and I don't think it's even dropped a 1/2".He has 2 or 3 more hours of clearing on the pond area and he will be done at least for now.
Exciting times. Enjoy the process. Congratulations on starting construction.
Take pictures and share them.
I agree! Let's see some pics!
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
He got rained out today and is hoping it will dry out enough by tomorrow afternoon to finish clearing before more rain comes in.I've been taking pictures,I'll have to figure out how to post them.
We got lucky and he finished clearing yesterday.They plan to be out next Thursday to shoot the grade so they can plan and price.I now have lots of wood to cut and brush to burn.
Well we got rained out last week and not looking much better for this week for getting them out to shoot the grade.The company I'm using is a small family owned business with the husband running the construction side and the wife running the excavating side with a guy or two doing the excavating.When talking to her last week to confirm that we was rained out,I asked her if the soil map and soil info I sent to her helped any.She said no,she really didn't know what it all ment.She also said you never have enough good dirt on site and you always have to bring in some or all of the dirt.I told her from what I've been reading,you want at least 20% clay and don't want 100% clay and that 30% clay is what you want.I asked what percent of clay does she like to use and she told me they don't get that technical,they just look at it.Well all of this is not making me feel real good about how well they know what their doing.I think they know how to build a pond but I think if it don't look like almost pure clay they just have you buy some.I may have to keep an open mind about finding someone else to build my pond.I orderd the book Just Add Water last night.I figure I better learn all I can.lol!
Well they still haven't been out to shoot the grade.They've been rained out and last week it was food poisoning.They said they would try for this week and I told them to call me when they knew.The next day I went down to my local NRCS office and got some info including a contractor list.I'm giving them to Wednesday and I will start calling others.The soil scientist was not in last week when I was there but I got to talk to him today on the phone.He said he knows my soil types well and that they should work good,even the rockier stuff that I was worried about.So that sounds great.But he also told me he would only build a pond in January-March so it fills up before the dirt can crack.I've had others tell me they like it to take longer to fill so you can get grass to grow first.Has anyone had trouble with building a pond because the didn't do it January-March?I really don't want to wait almost a year to build it!lol!
After going through my pictures to post here,I realized that I didn't take any pictures after his last day of clearing.I will take a few more and get them posted,now that I figured out how to do it.lol!
<snip> But he also told me he would only build a pond in January-March so it fills up before the dirt can crack.I've had others tell me they like it to take longer to fill so you can get grass to grow first.Has anyone had trouble with building a pond because the didn't do it January-March?I really don't want to wait almost a year to build it!lol!
Most ponds around here are built in late summer or early fall, when the ground is driest. It's usually too muddy to work in January-March. We got our latest one done in mid December, during the bad drought we had. The renovation of our old pond was done in August 2015, during a dry spell. It started filling within a few days.
If you build in the warmer months you can get grass going faster and avoid erosion of the dam easier. With my December build, I had to use a lot of rocks and hay to block possible erosion channels, but still got a few mild ones.
I finished mine in Sept, and caught great fall rains to get it 3/4 filled. Also gave me enough rain to get grass started everywhere. I was a bit on the lucky side though. Not sure we've had enough rain since then to get it half full. On another note, I had a lot more rock in the soil/clay than it looks like you do. I've got a small leak, which bothers me, but not much. Hope you get your contractor situation resolved. My builder wasn't a soils expert. He knew enough to know I had marginal soil with too much rock. When he found good stuff he did his best to get it in the righ places. I did make them use a sheeps foot roller. They didn't want to, and really had to fight it. Glad I did though, as I think my leak would probably be worse.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Thanks guys!Them and I both felt it would need to be during a dry time to get it in.It took them near 4 weeks just to get in 7 days of clearing,and only 2-3 days of it was in the pond area,the rest was on the hill top where it was drier.The soil guy at the NRCS told me that you can use dirt up to 50% rock,as long as the rocks aren't real big.I have 2 types of soil that meet in my pond site.The one you can see in the pictures has less rock but also has a lower percent of clay.The other has a lot more rock but lot more clay too.I will try to take some better pictures of my dirt.They did call me yesterday and plan to be out tomorrow,but they are calling for rain,so I won't count on them.
Yep, forecast says 90-100% chance. Up to an inch. Starts in the morning. (St Louis area.) I'm thinking I'll get .1" up at our pond. Spread out over 12 hrs. At least you know you aren't in the driest county in the state. I've already got that locked in..
I don't know if this works any better, but I can't go through file manager without exceeding 2MB. I can't get the pics down to less than 2MB on Photobucket.
How do you do an attachment? I'd like to just link in an attachment instead of the pic. I know it slows down loading the page.
Last edited by SetterGuy; 04/25/1701:15 PM.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Setterguy, I can't imagine even with a sheepsfoot roller that you can compact clay and expect any kind of seal with that many rocks. There are more rocks than clay per area. I can see why you have a slow leak and why the soilfloc really can't help you much there. Too many places where rocks can move slightly and disturb the compaction and allow places for water to find its way down through the compaction zone.
Bobbss, I would go overboard on compaction or see if there is anyway to use the stickiest clay you can find, without rocks, even if you have to have it trucked in. or, plan now for an alternate source of water (well and large pump?) to help fill your pond. Perhaps you get more rain and won't have to worry as much.
Not wanting to be a spoilsport but that soil/rock mix looks to be a challenge.
That's by far, the worst area in the pond. It was supposed to be cut way down there, but they left it alone. It's also very close to the surface there. It was a scary layer, to say the least. They went over it with the sheeps foot, but as you say, I doubt it did much good. Other areas had zero rock. Also, I think soilfloc may have helped my leak, somewhat. I'm still losing about 1/4" a day. I think it was twice that before soilfloc, and I don't think I applied it thick enough. Just an FYI..
"Not wanting to be a spoilsport but that soil/rock mix looks to be a challenge." I see it a little differently.. More like this.. a one AC pond full of fish, that loses 1/4" a day, is a bit better than no pond at all...
Last edited by SetterGuy; 04/25/1711:58 AM.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Setter you are very correct, any pond is better than no pond. I was just thinking about how so many people come here to vent frustration AFTER the pond is done, and the original poster has a chance to take your experience and go to his pond builder and say upfront that he doesn't demand a perfectly sealed 'bathtub' but that if extra precautions are taken now, there will be less hard feelings later.
he can also budget the extra work, also budget for a backup plan to pump water into the pond should it leak more than he finds acceptable.
There are advantages to leaky ponds, despite 2-3 applications of soilfloc, I'm glad it still goes down slightly due to presumably leak and evaporation. If it didn't, every time we get a heavy rain event I would have no place to go with the water.. The way it is now our rain events come right about the time I'm thinking, maybe I should fire up the well
I can live with this. It's about as low as it's been. It may not be perfect, but I am glad I didn't give up when we found all the rock. I hope Bobbss doesn't give up with some negative vibes..
Last edited by SetterGuy; 04/25/1712:59 PM.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Yep, forecast says 90-100% chance. Up to an inch. Starts in the morning. (St Louis area.) I'm thinking I'll get .1" up at our pond. Spread out over 12 hrs. At least you know you aren't in the driest county in the state. I've already got that locked in.. I had a lot of rock in my clay.
This pic is of some toads, but shows how much rock I've got. [img:center][/img]
How do you do an attachment? I'd like to just link in an attachment instead of the pic. I know it slows down loading the page.
When you go to full reply screen,there is a link thing that says file manager,click on it and it will let you add a file.
Yep, forecast says 90-100% chance. Up to an inch. Starts in the morning. (St Louis area.) I'm thinking I'll get .1" up at our pond. Spread out over 12 hrs. At least you know you aren't in the driest county in the state. I've already got that locked in.. I had a lot of rock in my clay.
How do you do an attachment? I'd like to just link in an attachment instead of the pic. I know it slows down loading the page.
When you go to full reply screen,there is a link thing that says file manager,click on it and it will let you add a file.
Thanks, I'll give it a shot. Hope you don't find as much rock as was in my pic!
Last edited by SetterGuy; 04/25/1701:22 PM.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Thanks guys!I will do what I can to have a pond that won't leak.The bad thing about the budget is with my wife it won't matter if it's built next month or 2 years from now,she is only going to want me to spend so much,and I don't even know how much that is yet.lol!Sometimes you have to let her gripe and get over the sticker shock before she says ok.lol!Perfect Pond,Want One?You Bet I do!But I'll settle for an ok one.If it stays full enough that my fish don't die,I can live with it.SetterGuy,I'm sure that area looks rockier now than it did,I'm sure the dirt that was there washed away and exposed the rocks more.And I would love to have a pond that looks as good as yours!I made it clear that when we bought the land,that I would have a pond there if I had to dig it with a shovel.lol!
I was lucky during the budget. One of my wife's friends was putting in a very nice pool. I kept saying my pond is less than 1/6 the cost of the pool, and it's a lot bigger! With fish! Ha Hope your construction goes well. Good luck. (I tried file manager, no go, all my iPhone pics are over 2MB). So, I'll hold off on filling up other threads with big picture files.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
I do have an old pond on the other side of the ridge in the same type of soil.It's a little under a 1/4 acre when full.It's not where I want one at,it is right on my property line with a private road (not mine)along side of it.It's in bad shape,it holds water but not that great.I haven't seen it drop more than 2' but it may not be over 4' deep when full.It has filled in pretty bad.There are so many trees on the dam,some are near 16" at the ground and some are dead.I'm not sure how much it leaks and how much the trees just suck out of it.I put a few fathead minnows in it and plan to bucket stock a few fish in it just for something to do and see if I can learn anything.I may try to clean it out later,after I get the new one built.
I was lucky during the budget. One of my wife's friends was putting in a very nice pool. I kept saying my pond is less than 1/6 the cost of the pool, and it's a lot bigger! With fish! Ha Hope your construction goes well. Good luck. (I tried file manager, no go, all my iPhone pics are over 2MB). So, I'll hold off on filling up other threads with big picture files.
What I did was emailed them from my phone to myself,then down loaded them on my computer at home,then I right clicked on them and went to edit and resized them so I could up load them.I'm not a tech guy so there is probably an easier way.lol!
Funny you mention pool costs! That is how I slipped our pond through the budget committee.
We went and priced out a simple above-ground swimming pool, not even that big, that was of reasonable depth (I forget the actual size). By itself, it was affordable. Then I had to figure in leveling an area for it, adding sand, and adding the state requirement of a deck to support a locking gate or removable stairs, a motion alarm, etc. Also chemicals, electrical hookup, electricity costs... my nanny state of NY made a simple pool cost almost 3X of the base price! Grand total, $11K.
We first received a pond quote for 1 acre pond at $10K, so we knocked it down to a 1/2 acre at $6K (which wound up being ~$9K when complete). It was still less money than a pool so I got the go-ahead! The selling point is it is usable all year round, where a pool is only good for 3-4 months around here. Ice-skate, fishing, etc.
Now we may have to add the cost of aeration and associated electricity to keep the floating gunk at bay for swimming. We will see how this summer pans out.
Don't skimp on the build of the pond. You will pay the additional cost now, or more later.
I was lucky during the budget. One of my wife's friends was putting in a very nice pool. I kept saying my pond is less than 1/6 the cost of the pool, and it's a lot bigger! With fish! Ha Hope your construction goes well. Good luck. (I tried file manager, no go, all my iPhone pics are over 2MB). So, I'll hold off on filling up other threads with big picture files.
The question is whether your wife prefers to swim in the pond or her friend's pool? LOL
My wife loves to sit back in a floating lounge chair. She hardly gets wet. Now she's seen me jump out of the water when the HBG bite me, and will probably never get out of the chair. FYI, her buddy spent almost as much on their big in ground pool and landscaping project, as we did on the farm! I couldn't help but look good.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
They FINALLY made it out today and shot the grade so they can work up a price.Now I will have to see how long it takes them to give me a price.lol!Along with a few things they've said about always having to bring in clay,they was taking so long that I started talking to someone else last week that I know has built way more ponds.He wants me to give him $400.00 to come out and dig some test holes and take a look at things so he can give a price.Which my wife don't like.She want to get the NRCS office to do it,which they already they can't do to their truck being wrecked and no plans to fix it.lol!I would feel better about it if he had came out first and looked at thing and said everything else looked good but needed to dig test holes.Since my current people made it out today,I will at least hear them out.
Well still no price from my current people and the last time I talked to them they said they want to bring in 100% of the dirt they need and that it would probably be over $25,000.00 for just a 1/2 acre pond (I'm hoping for bigger).My wife finally gave up on the Mo.Con. and the NRCS so I called the other guy and he is going to try to come out Thursday and dig test holes.I would of never thought it would be this hard to find someone to build me a pond,let alone just to get a price.lol! I haven't seen any sign of the FHM I put in the old pond so I picked up another 5 dozen today to put in.While I was floating them I was looking around and saw some 1/2"-3/4" fry swimming around.I thought it was pretty cool to have something spawn even if it is just FHM.I can't wait to get a real pond built.lol!
Bob, that's disappointing in the NRCS. My guy was very responsive has come out three times, at least. 25 is about what it cost me to get my pond built. I didn't get any dirt or clay hauled in though. (Maybe I should have.) I was 10k above budget anyway. Lots went wrong during the build, but some of that was due to my issues. I sure hope you find someone that's willing and able to get it done right for a fair price. It's great to see stuff happening in a new pond. I took a million pictures of toad and frog eggs. Then asked and reasked here, what I was looking at.. Good luck, wish I knew a pond builder near you.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Thanks SetterGuy,the guy that I hope is going to make it out tomorrow is pretty good from what I hear.He built one for a member here on Pond Boss and 2 for a friend of mine's buddy.He claims that he has built 50 or more just in my county and works in others as well.He said their building a 35 acre lake in another county right now.I would like to think the person that hired them for that thought he knew what he is doing.lol!
The new guy came out yesterday and dug test holes.I have plenty of good clay.There is about 2' of top soil on top of it so it will take a little work to get to it.Besides the price,the only thing he said that I wasn't wild about was he didn't want to use his sheeps foot.He said the pond was going to be to narrow and steep for the sheeps foot to work good,and that the soil was good enough and enough rock in it that he could just toe it in.He also said that the sheeps foot doesn't work well with the rock.He said he would use it the best he could if I wanted but it would cost more money and that he thought it would be a waste of money.What do you guys think?
One concern about pure clay is that it tends to crack during periods of little or no rain. However, this guy surely knows more about dam building in your area that I do.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
I had them use the sheeps foot roller on my pond, and I had a lot of rock. My pond is pretty wide, it's almost square. The roller did have issues with the rock. Also, the guys that built my pond had built lots of them, and they all held water, and none used a roller. There's good clay around me, just not at my place.. Ha! It does sound like he knows what he's doing. Glad you finally got someone out there that appears to know what he's doing.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Thanks Guys!My soil doesn't look like pure clay to me.The soil maps for the area he plans to take it from says 68% clay.My pond will only be 150' wide at the most.Most of it will probably be 100' or less wide.It will probably be 250'-300' long. It will be 12'+ deep and most of it will be at least 8' deep.My wife don't like the price.Surprise!lol!Some of that is I don't think he is the cheapest (he isn't as high as the people that didn't know what their doing) and some of it is ponds just aren't cheep!I will probably have to wait for the wife to get over the price for a while.lol!
Thanks Guys!My soil doesn't look like pure clay to me.The soil maps for the area he plans to take it from says 68% clay.
By chance i have two NRCS soil scientists within 15 minutes of my proposed pond. They were happy to come out (perhaps bored) amd take a look at my soils. Point was they said the soils maps were pretty general and the soils in my pond area were nothing like what the soils map said it was as further up on the hill. The detail wasnt done to what some might interprete on the soil maps. Also likely the valley my pond is going to be was timbered back in the day and the old timers didnt bother going into the woods - at least in this narrow tract.
Does your guy want a job in the St. Louis area?lol!Mine is no where near that cheap.He said mine would be 1/2-3/4 acre and it's also in a deep wooded ravine with not much room to work in and still needs some clearing.He said he thinks he can do it for $15,000.00 but to plan on $20,000.00.
Originally Posted By: John F
I had a new .28 acre pond 8.5 feet deep built last December for just over $2700.
Mine couldn't come out because his truck has been down since the winter with no repair in sight.My soil seems to match pretty well with the soil map description,but I wouldn't bet on it.lol!
Originally Posted By: Redonthehead
Originally Posted By: Bobbss
Thanks Guys!My soil doesn't look like pure clay to me.The soil maps for the area he plans to take it from says 68% clay.
By chance i have two NRCS soil scientists within 15 minutes of my proposed pond. They were happy to come out (perhaps bored) amd take a look at my soils. Point was they said the soils maps were pretty general and the soils in my pond area were nothing like what the soils map said it was as further up on the hill. The detail wasnt done to what some might interprete on the soil maps. Also likely the valley my pond is going to be was timbered back in the day and the old timers didnt bother going into the woods - at least in this narrow tract.
I had the test holes dug, then had the NRCS guy come out, and he brought his soils expert with him. He did ribbon tests etc.. and gave my 80-90% chance of success. He was hesitant about the drainage I had for the size of my pond. As it turned out, I have no trouble filling it, it's keeping it filled that's been the problem. Not necessarily a leak, although I have a small one, it's drought too. The more south you are in Missouri, the more expected rainfall you have. My wife went along on cost because my other hobby is motorcycle riding.. She was 100% behind anything I did, that kept me off of a bike. (I did a 10,000 mile trip up to Prudhoe Bay AK, and back. After that I was ready to tackle the pond.) Maybe try the motorcycle strategy on your wife, she will pick the pond, if she's anything like my wife.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Wouldn't work here. She rides too. We only made it as far north as Coldfoot, Alaska though, hers a 650 Yamaha V Star then (now she rides a Can Am Spyder). Show your wife a Spyder. My wife loves it.
Well none of that works with my wife.lol!She doesn't want me to have any hobbies that cost money.lol!She asked me tonight if I can find someone cheaper or build it my self.lol!My father in law that passed away a 1 1/2 years ago had a 555 down at the farm that is still there that I could probably bring up but I've only played with it for 10-15 minutes before.I've been using a skid steer and front loader at work for over 28 years but just to move bulk sawdust and sand,which would help me pick it up faster than most people but it's not like building a pond.Then theres the time thing that I have none of,only a few hours here and there.lol!My pond is going to be one that needs finish fast after it's started or it will fill with water.
IMHO, were I to build another pond, I would not go with the cheapest quote, but one with the most pond building experience and track record of success. I do have a nice pond, but the higher quote would have been almost 2x price, but almost 2x size also. My smaller, cheaper pond dam was poorly compacted. The higher priced guy wanted to compact the snot out of things with a loader. If I knew then what I know now...
Of course I didn't join this site until after the pond was built, or my decision would have been different.
IMHO, were I to build another pond, I would not go with the cheapest quote, but one with the most pond building experience and track record of success. I do have a nice pond, but the higher quote would have been almost 2x price, but almost 2x size also. My smaller, cheaper pond dam was poorly compacted. The higher priced guy wanted to compact the snot out of things with a loader. If I knew then what I know now...
Of course I didn't join this site until after the pond was built, or my decision would have been different.
At this time after talking to the new guy,I wouldn't go with a cheaper bid unless they sounded like they knew as much as he did and had the experience he does.It was pretty much night and day from the other people I was using.I think I'd rather make the pond smaller to save money if I have to,but I don't want to do that just yet.lol!
The new guy I'm talking to said Oak Trees don't do well to near ponds.I have one that I wanted to keep that would hang over the pond but he said we would need to drop the water line down some or we may have to take the tree down,now or later after it dies and that it would be easier now before the pond is built.Does anyone have any Oak Trees very close to their pond that is doing good?
I have a few maybe 40 or 50 feet from the pond and they are doing ok. I planted them as "sticks" in 2012. They are around 12 feet tall now. Do a little research. Not all oaks are created equal.
Thanks.Mine was only going to be around 10 feet.I think he wants 20 feet or so.
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I have a few maybe 40 or 50 feet from the pond and they are doing ok. I planted them as "sticks" in 2012. They are around 12 feet tall now. Do a little research. Not all oaks are created equal.
The new guy I'm talking to said Oak Trees don't do well to near ponds.I have one that I wanted to keep that would hang over the pond but he said we would need to drop the water line down some or we may have to take the tree down,now or later after it dies and that it would be easier now before the pond is built.Does anyone have any Oak Trees very close to their pond that is doing good?
You may want to be careful with oak trees overhanging ponds, or oak leaves in ponds. Some people have had bad experiences with the impact of oaks on ponds & fish.
I've got oaks, hickories, ash, walnut, and maples all around my pond. So far I haven't lost any trees (going on three years) around the pond. We've got shade all day at some place on the pond. I really like it that way. I know they dump a lot of leaves in the pond, and suck up,a lot of water, but they are beautiful to look at, and drop the temp an easy 10 degrees when you are in the shade. That's a big oak right behind this feeder..
Last edited by SetterGuy; 06/07/1710:16 PM.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
My neighbor has a couple of large ponds in the woods, and the oaks that are about 2 to 3 feet or more above the high water mark are OK. Those at the high water mark or below died within a couple of years after filling. Others in between mostly have died too. Eastern red cedars are flourishing just above the high water mark now.
I have planted a white swamp oak next to my lake. They have bin under 5 foot of water a couple of times and are still growing, that is the ones the deer have not eaten. I was told, that since swamp was in there name they would work next to water (maybe). They did grow with very little watering and the deer chewed some half way to the ground.
Thanks Guys!Sounds like it could be a roll of the dice.lol!I won't get in to big of a hurry to take it down until I see for sure where the water line is going to be. I still haven't gotten the green light from the wife to start yet anyway,but she is starting to soften some about the price.lol!
In my opinion you should get more bids. The costs between NW Arkansas metro area (pop over 300k) and your area shouldn't be that much different. Around here, in good clay, fairly flat with good accessibility, and not many trees, the cost is not more than $12k per acre.
Unfortunately I only have one of those.lol!My clay is good,but it's in a deep wooded ravine with steep sides and he is going to have to clear an area just to stock pile all the top soil until he is ready for it.He said when things are right he can build around a 1 acre pond for $10,000.00,that doesn't mean I can't find someone that can do a good job cheaper but I'm having a hard time finding anyone to give me prices at all..lol!
Originally Posted By: John F
In my opinion you should get more bids. The costs between NW Arkansals metro area (pop over 300k) and your area shouldn't be that much different. Around here, in good clay, fairly flat with good accessibility, and not many trees, the cost is not more than $12k per acre.
The new guy I'm talking to said Oak Trees don't do well to near ponds.I have one that I wanted to keep that would hang over the pond but he said we would need to drop the water line down some or we may have to take the tree down,now or later after it dies and that it would be easier now before the pond is built.Does anyone have any Oak Trees very close to their pond that is doing good?
I left about a 2' diameter pin oak that was right at the edge of full pool level in my sons pond that I refurbished. People told me it would likely die, and it did. Did not last too long
Post where I reported it had died. And a report of a bigger pin oak that lives at waters edge just fine. It grew up by the creek though, and the one that died did not have water previously up close to it.
Unfortunately I only have one of those.lol!My clay is good,but it's in a deep wooded ravine with steep sides and he is going to have to clear an area just to stock pile all the top soil until he is ready for it.He said when things are right he can build around a 1 acre pond for $10,000.00,that doesn't mean I can't find someone that can do a good job cheaper but I'm having a hard time finding anyone to give me prices at all..lol!
Originally Posted By: John F
In my opinion you should get more bids. The costs between NW Arkansals metro area (pop over 300k) and your area shouldn't be that much different. Around here, in good clay, fairly flat with good accessibility, and not many trees, the cost is not more than $12k per acre.
My area is not real steep, and the clay is down about 8-10inches. The last pond was in a grassy field, no trees. The first one was a renovation, brush and over 50 trees on the dam, and around the pond, average 6" diameter trees, some 12".
Your old pond sounds about like mine,but I have a few trees that might go nearer to 16".I may try to do something with it later,after I get the new one built.There is a lot more water shed to it but it's on the edge of my property and not where I would like it.
Originally Posted By: John F
Originally Posted By: Bobbss
Unfortunately I only have one of those.lol!My clay is good,but it's in a deep wooded ravine with steep sides and he is going to have to clear an area just to stock pile all the top soil until he is ready for it.He said when things are right he can build around a 1 acre pond for $10,000.00,that doesn't mean I can't find someone that can do a good job cheaper but I'm having a hard time finding anyone to give me prices at all..lol!
Originally Posted By: John F
In my opinion you should get more bids. The costs between NW Arkansals metro area (pop over 300k) and your area shouldn't be that much different. Around here, in good clay, fairly flat with good accessibility, and not many trees, the cost is not more than $12k per acre.
My area is not real steep, and the clay is down about 8-10inches. The last pond was in a grassy field, no trees. The first one was a renovation, brush and over 50 trees on the dam, and around the pond, average 6" diameter trees, some 12".
I'm thinking I'm going to end up with some burn piles above my pond,there is no good place below the dam.What little space I have there he is going to need to pile top soil.Will it hurt if I use fuel-oil ect... to help burn it?It's hard to get green stuff to burn without it. I'm hoping I will get the green light from the wife by next week so I can call him and get on his schedule.He said he could probably start 2-4 weeks after I let him know I'm ready.
Bob, I burned a lot of the timber in the pond base. I used old tires and diesel to get it going. There was nothing left afterwards. Although when it did initially fill there was some black residue on top of the water. It was there for just a few days. To my knowledge, it had no effect on the water, fish, or anything else. We harvested (I say we, but it was the guys building the pond) about $15,000 worth of trees out of the ravine where the pond ended up. I still had to get rid of all the small stuff, and all the tops from the trees they harvested. Here's a pic of the nasty looking water when the pond intially filled. It cleared up pretty quickly. (The black stuff) The clay wouldn't settle out of the water, so Rainman came out and did his Alum magic and made the water as clear as any spring.
Last edited by SetterGuy; 06/16/1704:49 PM.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
I had a good Father's Day. I got a savings account in my name with $15,000.00 in it for my pond!Now as long as I can keep the guy to that budget I'm good to go.That and get the rest of the wood cut and the crap wood and brush burnt.lol!
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
I talked to my pond builder today to let him know I was ready to get things set up.I'm going to be out of town on vacation the first week of July so we agreed to shoot for about 4 weeks to start my pond.That will give me some time to cut and burn what I can.
Bobbss, Congrats! Start thinking now about structure, trenches, mounds, and root balls for your builder. Knowing and planning ahead of time is a LOT cheaper than the job creep costs of telling an equipment operator to stop, and do this or that, as you go along....
Another thing would be to get soil samples from your water shed and basin to get tested and find out how many tons of Ag Lime to add, per acre to bring your pH to 7.4-8.0...again, it is a LOT cheaper to spread in dry ponds.
Last, be prepared to seed ALL disturbed areas as soon as the tracks stop turning to reduce erosion and muddying. Use whatever grass seed you like on the shore, watershed, and a blend of Buck Oats, annual ryegras and wheat in the pond basin areas. As your pond fills, the flooded grasses will jump start your microscopic aquatic life....FHM can go in as soon as you have a permanent foot or two of water....
Thanks Rainman!My builder said he wanted to put some of my root balls in but I told him I wasn't sure if I wanted them in there.I will plan on having him put some in.How many do you think I should put in?The pond will be 1/2-3/4 acre.Most of my trees are around 16" oak,will that matter?
Bob, if my memory serves me, I think I have read that a pond should have about 20% structure as a rule of thumb. However, I have a hard time defining that. Is it 20% of the shoreline area or the bottom surface or the volume? Hopefully you'll get the attention of someone in the know soon. I have used about 15% of the shoreline from the 2 foot depth to the 6 foot depths of my 10 foot deep pond.
And as far as oaks go, I know I have read that there have been some problems with green oaks going in the ponds before they dried.
Here's a good read on the topic of root wads and trees as structure...
I have used Osage Orange wads with no noticeable effect on the FHMs stocked this spring. My water is a little tea colored, but I don't think it is from my root wads alone.
I have no regrets that I didn't have any root balls put in mine. Once put in, they're in for good. I'd rather place cover that can be move/removed if need be. If you don't aerate, the deepest part of your pond is probably going to be devoid of oxygen anyway and if that's where you put the root balls, which people often do, they would be useless for cover. If your pond ends up losing water those root balls could end up in the way with no way to get them out of the way. If you end up wanting to use your pond for geothermal and they're in the deepest part, they could also end up in the way.
Most life in a pond happens in the upper few feet. I don't feel like I gave up anything not having the root balls.
East Central Missouri 1 1/4 acre pond, build fall 2011 1/8 acre baitfish pond build fall 2022
Thanks,I knew I had read that there could be trouble with oaks and after reading that whole thread I'm back to thinking I don't want them.lol!
Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
Bob, if my memory serves me, I think I have read that a pond should have about 20% structure as a rule of thumb. However, I have a hard time defining that. Is it 20% of the shoreline area or the bottom surface or the volume? Hopefully you'll get the attention of someone in the know soon. I have used about 15% of the shoreline from the 2 foot depth to the 6 foot depths of my 10 foot deep pond.
And as far as oaks go, I know I have read that there have been some problems with green oaks going in the ponds before they dried.
Here's a good read on the topic of root wads and trees as structure...
I have used Osage Orange wads with no noticeable effect on the FHMs stocked this spring. My water is a little tea colored, but I don't think it is from my root wads alone.
Thanks Jim,that is kind of the way I was thinking.
Originally Posted By: Jimmi
I have no regrets that I didn't have any root balls put in mine. Once put in, they're in for good. I'd rather place cover that can be move/removed if need be. If you don't aerate, the deepest part of your pond is probably going to be devoid of oxygen anyway and if that's where you put the root balls, which people often do, they would be useless for cover. If your pond ends up losing water those root balls could end up in the way with no way to get them out of the way. If you end up wanting to use your pond for geothermal and they're in the deepest part, they could also end up in the way.
Most life in a pond happens in the upper few feet. I don't feel like I gave up anything not having the root balls.
When putting in the clay liner, a moderate rain covered the basin beyond what was lined. A berm inside the basin was built to confine the water, and root balls were set on top of the ring, along with trees. At full pool, the trunk tops were about 6 inches under water. Both my fish and my kids loved this area! The kids used the stump tops as diving boards into the deep side when the pool was less than full.
RianMan will probably pop in to answer your question about the greenness of the trees and their type, but due to the lack of bark on the stumps, I would say that they are mostly seasoned. I will take a stab at the types of trees that do have bark from the first pic. Cedar on the left. Pine OR persimmon laying long and horizontal through the center of the pic and Cottonwood and/or oaks in the top right hand corner.
RianMan will probably pop in to answer your question about the greenness of the trees and their type, but due to the lack of bark on the stumps, I would say that they are mostly seasoned. I will take a stab at the types of trees that do have bark from the first pic. Cedar on the left. Pine OR persimmon laying long and horizontal through the center of the pic and Cottonwood and/or oaks in the top right hand corner.
Thanks,I was thinking it looked like a mix and more seasoned than mine.
All the trees were pushed over and logged. All were also "green". Most were White Oak With a couple Black Oak and Hickory. The large Red Cedar was cut fresh and pulled into place. Some of the stumps were 30" diameter at the cuts, and all the roots were tangled around large rock and topsoil. The berm that had to be built to contain water was flattened on top and the stumps place in a semi-circle. We called it the Budweiser crown area.
Catfishing was amazing on the Dam side of the stumps where water quickly dropped from 7 to 25 feet off the shelf. The shallow side of the circle had a small submerged island, and 2 holes that where 18 feet deep...all aerated.
We also pulled out a Black Walnut that did not go into the pond, but that tree alone more than covered building costs as it was graded for veneer and the first limb was about 25" up...got a 22' long log, with the end diameters of about 34" and 26".
All the trees were pushed over and logged. All were also "green". Most were White Oak With a couple Black Oak and Hickory. The large Red Cedar was cut fresh and pulled into place. Some of the stumps were 30" diameter at the cuts, and all the roots were tangled around large rock and topsoil. The berm that had to be built to contain water was flattened on top and the stumps place in a semi-circle. We called it the Budweiser crown area.
Catfishing was amazing on the Dam side of the stumps where water quickly dropped from 7 to 25 feet off the shelf. The shallow side of the circle had a small submerged island, and 2 holes that where 18 feet deep...all aerated.
We also pulled out a Black Walnut that did not go into the pond, but that tree alone more than covered building costs as it was graded for veneer and the first limb was about 25" up...got a 22' long log, with the end diameters of about 34" and 26".
Near full pool in 10/2014
Low pool in 2012
The deer wallow it all started as...
Thanks Rainman,are root balls less toxic than the trees?
I don't see any issue with most trees. Only tree I even know of that poses more danger than most is Black Walnut. Brush piles, green or seasoned, are fish magnets.
My pond guy called the other day and said he should be out to start my pond before the end of next week.I won't hold my breath but that sounds great to me.lol! Can anyone tell me how late into the year FHM will spawn?I'm hoping to get enough rain soon after and that I can get some started this year yet.
Breeding season here rapping up. I presume becuase of interaction between photoperiod and temperature. I have had late spawns when pond chilled by introduction of well water.
Breeding season here rapping up. I presume becuase of interaction between photoperiod and temperature. I have had late spawns when pond chilled by introduction of well water.
Thanks,this would be a brand new pond.Would that matter?
I put my FHM into the pond in late summer. I think it was September. I threw in several pallets for them to lay eggs under. I'm not sure they spawned that summer, but the next spring there were clouds of them. I still have really large schools of them. Everything is working on them, so the numbers are down, but they are hanging in there. The water looked like mud when I put them in. They did fine. I don't think they were all that expensive either. I followed the instructions from the guy I bought them from. Four bags that I had sitting in the water to come to temp for quite a while, then slowly mixed in the ugly pond water. I didn't see a single floater.
Looked back through pics. First big rain on the brand new, just completed, pond was Sept 10 2014. My guess is, I stocked the FHM shortly after that.
Last edited by SetterGuy; 07/29/1709:55 AM.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
At last,they dropped off the first dozer today and should be out Monday with the other and get started on my pond.It's been a long road to get a pond built but it looks like it's finaly getting shorter.lol!
Wow Bob. It's been a long road but it sounds like it's finally happening. Hopefully we'll get some long soaking rains after you get done and get it all seeded. If you have any delays on getting the grass to take you can use winter wheat pretty late in the year and get something to hold the soil until next spring. That stuff can practically sprout on a cue ball. Good luck & post some pictures.
East Central Missouri 1 1/4 acre pond, build fall 2011 1/8 acre baitfish pond build fall 2022
Yep.. I used the winter wheat as well. Added bonus was that the turkeys were all over it the next summer.. Came right up, and provided good cover for the fescue. Bob, glad you are getting started. Good luck with the contractor, and hoping you find good clay the whole way. Jeff
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Thanks Guys!I plan to pick up some seed soon as they are done.I'm hoping that I'm hitting things at the right time.Still going to be warm for a fair while get,but late enough in the year that most of the real hot weather should be over and the fall rains coming.
It rained a little here yesterday so he didn't get a lot done.He brought the 2nd dozer out later in the day and did a few hours of clearing and cleaning things up so he could shoot the grade today and find his water line.He should then be able to finish clearing and cleaning things up and start stripping the top soil.I took pictures yesterday and plan to take some every day they work and will try to post some soon.
Bob, we had almost three inches here in St Louis the other day. Naturally, only a half inch up at the farm. Hope you didn't get that much! Hope the construction is going well. Jeff
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Thanks SetterGuy,I did get about 3" of rain here. Which my dirt was so dry that I think he wanted some,but not 3".lol!We got off to a slow start with the rain and one of the dozers broke right off the bat and was down for 2 days but things seem to be going good now. Yesterday they finished cutting the key way and started building the dam. They also built a small sediment pond.I think they wanted to hold back some of the water if it rains.
Thanks Rainman!They got rained out again today but I would think they should be done by the end of the week.They have about 6' to go on the dam.One of the guys said he thinks it will end up being over 20' deep.
I know it goes against most of what I've read,but they are using a dozer.He has a sheepsfoot but said do to the steepness and the amount of rock,it wouldn't be worth using,and that he would toe it in with a dozer.He said that's the way he does most of them and claims that built more than 50.A friend of mine's friend had him build 2 ponds and a member here had him build one and said he was happy with it and that he didn't use a sheepsfoot on his.I bought Mike Otto's book and he says a dozer is ok as long as you know how to do it,so I went with it.One of his guys said they fill the bucket and raise it up so it puts the weight on the front of the tracks and that they do 6" lifts with many passes.I watched them a little and it looked like less than 6" lifts to me.
When my pond was redone in August 2015, I was not on pond boss forums, and it was only compacted using a dozer. I lose from 3/4 to one inch of water per day due to seepage. I attribute it mostly to poor compaction. I hope you don't suffer the same. I am on my second water pump now due to having to keep up with the leaks with supplemental water. It's a hassle, and not worth it long term.
The core isn't steep,the sides of the ravine are steep and it's very narrow.I don't think you could say that any of the bottom of it was really level.About 20' or so wide at the bottom wasn't to bad but it is pretty much to hills meeting each other at the bottom.He said that the narrowness and steepness combination would make it hard to use a sheepsfoot.He also said that the amount of rock in it would make it harder to use the sheepsfoot but it would make it easier to pack using a dozer.He said he would try to use a sheepsfoot but it would cost me more money and that he thought it would be a waste of my money. Trust me,I worry about it and hope he knows what he is doing.He seems to and came highly recommended.He is the most experienced I could find with over a year of looking.As I said before,Mike Otto said in his book that a dozer will work if done right,so I went for it.I hope Mike Otto knows what he is talking about,but I really really really hope my guy knows what he is talking about.lol!
The wet summer we have had will help a dozer pack the soil. damp/wet soil packs a lot better than dry. Literature says the moisture level is very important.
I wish you luck. I bought a sheep's foot roller for my newest projects. You may be OK depending on local conditions. I have a new wetland on top of a hill full of water in a drought due to proper compaction. It all depends on input vs, loss.
Looks good Bob! Glad to see so much progress! We had a lot of trouble with the sheepsfoot roller on my pond. The rock really plays havoc with them. Don't know if it helped or not. I've got a pretty minor leak, no evidence of where it's coming out. You'll be ready for some September rains.. Jeff
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Thanks Guys.Jeff,I can see where the rocks would be a lot of trouble.The larger ones would probably be getting stuck between the pads and I would think it might cause uneven pressure.But I'm no pro that's for sure.lol!From the pictures you've posted,I would say my dirt is around as rocky as yours,maybe a little more or less.If my pond looks anywhere near as good as yours,I'll be more than happy!
Hello friends, happy to join the forum. I'm planning on purchasing an eight acre home site that has high bluffs and several low slopping area my builders thinks would be a great location for my pond . I need someone to speak with to form a checklist of things to consider before purchasing the property within the next couple of weeks. I'm in the north florida area. Thanks for any input and suggested contacts you can provide. I think this forum is just the thing I need to assist me in my very first pond project. All the best, Crownfish100
Thanks for responding so fast...... Super I will look into those resources. Does anyone know a ole school pond builder in the North Florida or South Georgia area. I hoping to work with someone who can assist me in the project, I want to be hands on. Thanks again everyone. Crownfish100
They finished yesterday and everything looks great to me.If it holds water I'll be 100% happy with the job they did.lol!He said it should be about 3/4 acre and it is 19' deep at the deepest spot.To me it looks like it is over 12' in the middle almost the whole way down the length.I'm going to try and measure the width and length myself to get a better idea of the size.Anybody have any tips on doing that?I picked up a bunch of seed today and he told me to get some rolls of straw matting for the back of the dam to help get things growing sooner so I'll try and do that tomorrow and try to get everything seeded this week.I'll try to get more pictures posted tomorrow also.
With this weather you should have no problem getting seed to take on the dam - include some rye in the blend to allow for a nice solid root before winter hits, it'll make overseeding next spring easier. Rent a straw spreader if you're in a rush
Very nice Bob and thanks for the pictures. I was looking at the back side of the dam, you are very close to the paved road. If the dam breached that road would certainly be gone! I'm surprised that let you build the dam so close to the road. But I'm sure if the dam is built right and there is a proper spillway and emergency overflow of some type that the road should be safe for ever right?
Very nice Bob and thanks for the pictures. I was looking at the back side of the dam, you are very close to the paved road. If the dam breached that road would certainly be gone! I'm surprised that let you build the dam so close to the road. But I'm sure if the dam is built right and there is a proper spillway and emergency overflow of some type that the road should be safe for ever right?
Thanks, it wouldn't be a good thing if it broke. Lol!A round here I see a lot of them like that, even closer and bigger than mine.
Looks great Bob. You didn't seem to encounter too much rock. Not nearly as much as I did! Now you just need a little moisture. Right after you get the seed down. Good luck with the seeding. Just a FYI, don't put the grass matts down below the expected water levels. I did where I thought it would be running in too fast. The grass part of the mat dissolved and the netting was left. It acted as a gill net on my GSH..
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Very nice Bob and thanks for the pictures. I was looking at the back side of the dam, you are very close to the paved road. If the dam breached that road would certainly be gone! I'm surprised that let you build the dam so close to the road. But I'm sure if the dam is built right and there is a proper spillway and emergency overflow of some type that the road should be safe for ever right?
Canyon, we have VERY few regulations or restrictions on ponds in Missouri, in non-zoned counties. Unless a dam height from natural ground level exceeds 32' in height, or I think, volume exceeds 60 acre feet of water (points where Federal code apply), no regulations exist or permits needed in non-zoned MO counties
Thanks Jeff,not a lot of large rocks but it is probably rockier than it looks in the pictures.I'm only using the straw mat rolls on the back of the dam.I bought 5 rolls that are 8' X 112'.I started them today and they are a real pain,and wish I hadn't got them.I slide down the dam more times than I care to say,along with everything I was using.It was so dry and dusty.I worked on it all day and only got 3 rolls down and I still need to put a lot of staples in them.Looks like the 5 rolls isn't going to be enough to cover the whole back of the dam so I'm going to just use straw for the rest.They are calling for a little rain here Friday and Saturday so I'm hoping to have everything seeded by then.
I just recently completed a new dam. Shut the dozer off when it started raining at 10AM and got 6" that night which nearly filled the 2 acre pond. No cover or seed down. We re-smoothed the dam and I put down wheat/fescue/millet and straw. Another couple heavy rains including 4" put water out the emergency spillway which bunched up the straw and cut some divets. I replanted it and had the dozer track the straw into the soil as best he could. If it happens again I will look into using the straw mat rolls. Point is I would use the best you have (straw mats) on the emergency spillway slope.
My pond is is west central MO and have had over 12" rain since the dam was finished. I'll try to send some your way.
I put down a lot of seed (wheat and fescue) I didn't use any of the matts on the back of the dam. The dozers had gone up and down vertically and left nice little notches for seed to set into. I threw straw down on top, and up it all came. Have not had any washing issues in three years. I've got small trees starting at the base now. This Sunday:
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Thank guys,I finish the back of the dam today.For the back I used tall fescue and some quick stuff that is 90% annual rye.Everything on the water side will get a mix of the quick stuff(rye),buck oats,wheat and some tall fescue added to the areas above the water line.I also got some shade mix for a few areas that get almost no sun. I could be wrong,but I think it's going to be a long time before I see water out my spillway.I only have about 7 acres of water shed.
I'd strongly suggest winter wheat,buck oats and annual rygrass mixtures in the pond basin as well!! This will almost eliminate muddying water and greatly reduce erosion if a few bigger rain events happen, plus as the pond fills and you add FHM and other forage bases, those decaying grasses provide a huge buffet of food for little fish!
Thanks Rainman,not sure what kind of wheat it is but it was the only kind I could find.lol!I am putting it,the buck oats and the fast blend which is 90% annual rye grass in the whole basin but heavier on the sides.I figured the sides need it more and a lot of it will wash down to the bottom any way.I'm adding the tall fescue to the parts above the water line but I'm sure a lot is going lower to.
I went over and measured the pond today with a 100' measuring tape.I came up with 148' wide and 262' long. We got the first rain last night since I seeded and put down the rolls of straw matting last week.In an area that gets a lot of shade,beleive it or not,I already have a small 4'x 10' patch of grass growing.I guess that the moisture from the dew was enough to get it started and the rain last night made it shoot up.It wasn't enough rain to put anything in the pond but it did help settle down the loose dusty stuff.Now there is no more rain in the forecast,that really sucks.lol!
Excellent! Fescue, for me, can grow anywhere, under almost any conditions, as long as you get some straw on it. I didn't water mine, and it came up thick and strong. Planted on hard clay and rock. No fertilizer, or real soil prep. We did get some timely rains, but I was mowing it in no time. I still am, again, and again.. Ha! Hopefully we will get some more rain in late Sept or Oct. my pond is down close to 18" we haven't received near the rainfall in NE Missouri as the rest of the state. Typical..
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
I thought I'd give a update.Saturday made 4 weeks since they finished my pond and we're in a drought around here.We've only had 2 small 30 minute or so rain showers and we only have a small chance of a shower this week. I do have a fair amount of grass trying to grow,considering the lack of rain. I've made a few small cedar brush piles and several small rock piles,but need to make more.
This drought is frustrating. It's worse up north. I've washed the car and left it out, tried everything. At least the heat will break tomorrow. I'm hoping for a wet October, because August and September were really dry. Did you get your FHM stocked?
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
SetterGuy,most of the rain you've been seeing down are way has missed me.The 2 little showers we got since the pond was built were about 2 weeks apart,and neither one was big enough to even make a mud puddle in the pond.lol!So no FHM for me,I will probably have to wait till spring to add them,unless something changes soon.I thought we was going to get a little rain tomorrow,but now they're saying it doesn't look like we'll get any.They say a drought feeds a drought,and I would have to say they're right.lol!
We are in a new drought here in NW Arkansas. Here, it has rained only 0.6 inches since August 23rd. One pond is down about 30 inches, the other, about 25 inches. Almost the same weather as last year, when we suffered a 5 month drought until late December.
Yep 8/22 was my last real measurable rainfall. I've had three whopping .1" rains since then. Before that it was 7/27 we had 1.5". I'm down at least 2'. The leaves are coming down now. All that mass will bring the water level back up.
Last edited by SetterGuy; 09/26/1711:48 AM.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
It's enough to make you wish you had a well to keep them full.lol!I may look into having a well drilled someday,but it will probably have to wait until we get the house built.
Well this has been a great summer to dig a pond. I got the last dirt on top the dam yesterday and will be doing some more shaping of the bowl tonight. Still need to slope the back of the dam. Even with the drought, I am contending with water coming between the upper layer of red clay and the lower layer of grey clay. If it stays dry through next week, I may get-er done between morning and evening hunts (taking a week of vacation).
Same problem here in WNY, went from too much rain to nothing since mid-August. If it is going to be really dry, I would rather it be this time of year since the growing season is over, and like RAH says, a great time to build a pond. The winter is usually pretty good at coming along and filling things up after construction.
It is not good for fall colors though, the leaves are just drying up and falling off as soon as they turn. It has been quite hot up until today and it has backed the colored leaves to a crisp.
My pond is down 6" after being in overflow from January up to August. I was liking that nice full pool.
Have hope, the long-term weather models are predicting a "monsoon gyre" in the center of the Gulf, and those have a tendency of getting sucked up into the CONUS and wrung out. There is a decent chance you will be complaining about an overflow issue soon enough.
(snip) Have hope, the long-term weather models are predicting a "monsoon gyre" in the center of the Gulf, and those have a tendency of getting sucked up into the CONUS and wrung out. There is a decent chance you will be complaining about an overflow issue soon enough.
It's definitely the time of year to be building ponds here, but you would need a water source in order to compact the clay.
Let's hope for rain. My older pond is down over 30 inches, and the new one is down 18 inches. Only had 0.6 inches of rain since August 23rd, all in one hour, on Sept 17.
I wonder if a pond that seeps due to roots will seal once the roots rot out and the clay settles into the spaces?
I did get a very light sprinkle here yesterday morning.It was just enough to make the pavement look wet for a little while,but I'll take every drop I can get for my grass. I feel sorry for all the people getting hit hard by all of these hurricanes and storms,BUT it would be nice if one of these storms could send a little rain to the rest of us.lol!
Well hopefully my luck is changing.We got a small shower yesterday afternoon and another small one early this morning.We have a chance of rain in the forecast almost every day for the next week.It doesn't sound like they expect to get any large amounts in my area,so I probably still wont get any water in the bottom of my pond,but I'm hopeful that I'll get enough to help the grass out and settle the dirt down some.About 60 miles or so west of me got around 2 1/2 inches I think it was yesterday.The bigger rains seem to keep staying to the west and east of me,but maybe I'll get lucky and get a little more than they think.
Looks good Bobbss. Looks like we may get some more Sunday. I haven't been to our pond for a while. It seems to be missing al the rain that went through. Some areas in NW MO got 4". I got .5.. It will come. Looks like the grass is coming in.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
Thanks SetterGuy,most of the rain has missed me as well.It sucks when you watch the news and they show everyone around you get lots of rain and your just getting a few light showers.We got a lot more rain at my work than I got at my pond.Right now I live about a 1/2 mile (the way the crows fly) from my pond.It is great to see a little water in the pond.I went by today and it had dropped a little,around 4" I think.I figured it would with as dry as the ground was but hopefully it won't drop to much. It's been 6 weeks today since I seeded and put the straw mats on the back of the dam and I think the grass is looking pretty good considering how dry it's been.Here is a picture I took of it today.
Bobbss, Starting to look great with the grass growing. Congratulations. Just watch what you pray for on the amount of rain you receive at one time. I know you are excited about the pond filling so you can start your dream of stocking fish but I would watch out if you get a gully washer all at one time. The dry sides of the pond may wash a lot of silt into the bottom of the pond. A slow steady rain will fill the pond slowly and with less bank to wash in the pond. Good luck and keep posting the progress.
The best way to slow silting is to make at least a partial fill with a pump. I pumped water onto a big plastic tarp, and kept moving the tarp higher as it filled. That is, if you have an external source of water, like a creek, well, or a larger pond.
Thanks Smokey.Not that I think that it matters what I hope or pray for,I'm sure I'll get what I get.lol!I'm not hoping for real big rains but it would be nice to get enough to keep the grass growing and add a few inches to the pond here and there.lol!The pond has been bone dry for the last 6 weeks since they finished it until now. John,I wish I had a source to pump some water in it,I'd sure do it.Maybe someday I can get a well drilled for it.
We got 1.7" up by Hannibal last night! Hope you get a couple inches of rain out of this front. One nice thing about a big hard rain, at least this is what happened on my pond, is that when it comes down hard it almost pounds the clay down and seals it. We had all clay (and rock) so no silting. A real hard rain came early and the clay seemed like concrete after.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
We only got 0.7 inches. The creek is still mostly dry, a few potholes only. Pond #1 is 32 inches low, #2 is 18 inches low. Another drought is in progress, similar to last fall, so far D1 (moderate drought) by US Drought Monitor, same as Hannibal, MO area.
I'm going to have to get me a rain gauge.The news said about .5" but I had a coffee can that I've been using to put oil on my burn piles and it looked like it had almost a inch it.It was enough to put it back up to where it was the other day when it got the first water in it and before it started soaking it up.The grass is looking better! Glad to hear you guys are getting some rain too.
Our long term forecast is only predicting 0.6 inches of precipitation through the end of December. I hope it's totally inaccurate. If accurate, that would be a disaster, maybe the loss of both ponds, and all the feeding.
I would do what my budget would afford me to do.
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they would work next to water (maybe). They did grow with very little watering and the deer chewed some half way to the ground.
I got a savings account in my name with $15,000.00 in it for my pond!Now as long as I can keep the guy to that budget I'm good to go.That and get the rest of the wood cut and the crap wood and brush burnt.lol!
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