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#458306 10/27/16 12:57 PM
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Overton folks electroshocked my BOW and stocked 200 lb of small TP to help feed the bass. They delivered goods news & bad news.

Good news: pH up to a decent 6.5. Alkalinity & hardness around 50, a good number as well. My decision to double liming finally paid off, I can fertilize next spring!

Bad news: Where do I begin? My large BG are doing just fine, but no really small ones were captured. Inference: They are spawning -- we can see the beds -- but the babies don't have enough phyto & zooplankton to eat. Also, not much cover. Few make it.

Worse: The LSL Bass are undersized for the most part, having grown only an inch or two since stocking at 3 - 4 inches about 3 1/2 months ago. Problem is food. Not many baby BG to eat, and virtually no FHM.

Apparently it was a mistake to stock 150 lb of adult TP earlier this year, because they ate the 105 lb of FHM stocked last November before the bass could benefit. Thus, the bass had neither minnows nor small BG nor small TP to eat. The only bass that have really grown are doing so by eating other bass, which the fishery biologist proved by squeezing a 4 - 5 incher out of the stomach of a 8 incher.

Sigh. Small TP stocked, now will have to put a lot of FHM to get bass in better shape for winter. Will fertilize, put in more cover, and stock only small TP next year.

Sad, but hopefully others can learn from my mistakes!

Last edited by anthropic; 10/27/16 01:01 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Good luck on getting it turned around.


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by TP you mean tilapia?

Tilapia usually don't eat many FHM as far as I know, but they might try if hungry enough I suppose?

Last edited by BobbyRice; 10/27/16 02:43 PM.

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Originally Posted By: BobbyRice
by TP you mean tilapia?

Tilapia usually don't eat many FHM as far as I know, but they might try if hungry enough I suppose?


+1 to that...

How about tilapia eating the eggs of the missing in action bluegill? Or the bass eating everything in sight, BG or LMB until they couldn't fit the larger TP, BG or LMB in anymore?

What was the idea of putting more TP in if they were the problem in the first place? Wouldn't you try to restore BG/LMB balance first since the BG could serve as the LMB forage backbone by themselves and only add TP for FA control or bonus forage once you were back in balance?

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Very interesting, thanks for posting.

I've often wondered, based on the number of tilapia I've caught on microjigs and minicranks, about how piscivorous they really are, especially when forced to be so by a relative absence of other forage. I've caught them occasionally when fishing with tiny bluegills as bait as well.
How much [if any] are you feeding, and how much other forage [vegetation, FA, etc] is present for the tilapia?

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Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac
Very interesting, thanks for posting.

I've often wondered, based on the number of tilapia I've caught on microjigs and minicranks, about how piscivorous they really are, especially when forced to be so by a relative absence of other forage. I've caught them occasionally when fishing with tiny bluegills as bait as well.
How much [if any] are you feeding, and how much other forage [vegetation, FA, etc] is present for the tilapia?


Overton folks told me that TP are not generally highly piscivorous, but they really like FHM. Probably would have been wiser to either not stock TP at all, or at most stock small ones only after stocking the bass. That way the small bass would eat the FHM for a few months & gain some size, then they could turn their attention to the smaller TP.

I didn't fertilize because alkalinity & pH seemed marginal, around 30 and 5.5. Pleased to see it has gotten better and I can go forward next spring!

Not a lot of cover, other than felled pine trees. A few cattails around the shoreline, but not much else. No submergent pond weeds at all. Most of the lake drops off pretty fast, aside from some shallow water near the back.


I have three feeders going, total of about 60 seconds a day. Say four to five pounds daily. The larger RES, CNBG and BG were doing well on this Optimal BG diet, so guess will do it again next year.

Well, live and learn. Hopefully I'll make different mistakes next year.

Last edited by anthropic; 10/27/16 06:07 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
Originally Posted By: BobbyRice
by TP you mean tilapia?

Tilapia usually don't eat many FHM as far as I know, but they might try if hungry enough I suppose?


+1 to that...

How about tilapia eating the eggs of the missing in action bluegill? Or the bass eating everything in sight, BG or LMB until they couldn't fit the larger TP, BG or LMB in anymore?

What was the idea of putting more TP in if they were the problem in the first place? Wouldn't you try to restore BG/LMB balance first since the BG could serve as the LMB forage backbone by themselves and only add TP for FA control or bonus forage once you were back in balance?


Good questions. I think what happened is that the stocking schedule was planned well in advance. A good thing, normally, but in this case it wasn't revised in response to actual events, such as clear infertile water despite extensive liming. Thus, the TP had little in the way of algae to eat, so they turned to FHM and maybe small BG.

Last edited by anthropic; 10/27/16 05:56 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Without a bloom or vegetation, do you think that contributed to the disappearance of the 105 lbs of FHM as they were short of food and habitat as well? Even if the FHM spawned, what would the little guys eat with no plankton? My BG love to eat FHM so yours may have helped your bass and TP eradicate them.

Just curious, you mentioned adding more FHM. Have you considered adding something a little more of a mouth full instead for those LMB like GSH? Just thinking your BG will be less likely to target the bigger GSH, leaving more food for your LMB winter feed and GSH is a forage species that at least stands a chance of developing a sustaining population. I guess it's my frugal side coming out. Continuing to spend $Ks to stock forage like TP and FHM that I know will either soon die or quickly be eradicated would be hard for me. Especially, when I know spring will be coming and I will still be sitting with a shortage of forage after spending the bucks.

Last edited by Bill D.; 10/28/16 07:33 PM.

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Frank, I'm really sorry to hear about your fish problems but I think you will get to where u want to be, by following Overton's recommendations. It will just take a few more months to get there. So, the newly added small Tp will feed the LSL lmb when the water cools down along with feeding some of them now, is that the plan? If so, what happens if we have a winter like last yr where the water did not cool down till late January? The Tp will grow pretty fast if we have as mild of a fall and winter as last year. I would follow Overton's recommendations for sure but I would be adding double or 1.5 times the recommended Fhm stocking plans. But that is just me. They are not to costly to stock and can be picked up at Overton's by the boxes full and reduce transportation cost also. if we have a mild fall and winter maybe the fhm's will get in a spawn before it cools down. My water temp is perfect right now for fhm spawn. Just my 2cents. How is the knee doing?


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My FHM were wiped out both in my sediment and forage ponds, neither of which had any LMB. So I think BG and RES will do a number on them eventually. Not to mention a few wayward GSF added in the mix.


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Originally Posted By: anthropic
I have three feeders going, total of about 60 seconds a day. Say four to five pounds daily. The larger RES, CNBG and BG were doing well on this Optimal BG diet, so guess will do it again next year.

Thanks for the info.
Seems like the tilapia should have gone nuts with that much food coming into the lake, did they shock up a lot of tilapia during the survey?

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Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac
Very interesting, thanks for posting.

I've often wondered, based on the number of tilapia I've caught on microjigs and minicranks, about how piscivorous they really are, especially when forced to be so by a relative absence of other forage. I've caught them occasionally when fishing with tiny bluegills as bait as well.
How much [if any] are you feeding, and how much other forage [vegetation, FA, etc] is present for the tilapia?


Yolkie...knowing a tad bit bout your Tilapia, I'd lay odds the TP are biting your jigs and other baits mostly when other forage, like FA are scarce.



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Originally Posted By: anthropic
Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac
Very interesting, thanks for posting.

I've often wondered, based on the number of tilapia I've caught on microjigs and minicranks, about how piscivorous they really are, especially when forced to be so by a relative absence of other forage. I've caught them occasionally when fishing with tiny bluegills as bait as well.
How much [if any] are you feeding, and how much other forage [vegetation, FA, etc] is present for the tilapia?


Overton folks told me that TP are not generally highly piscivorous, but they really like FHM. Probably would have been wiser to either not stock TP at all, or at most stock small ones only after stocking the bass. That way the small bass would eat the FHM for a few months & gain some size, then they could turn their attention to the smaller TP.

I didn't fertilize because alkalinity & pH seemed marginal, around 30 and 5.5. Pleased to see it has gotten better and I can go forward next spring!

Not a lot of cover, other than felled pine trees. A few cattails around the shoreline, but not much else. No submergent pond weeds at all. Most of the lake drops off pretty fast, aside from some shallow water near the back.


I have three feeders going, total of about 60 seconds a day. Say four to five pounds daily. The larger RES, CNBG and BG were doing well on this Optimal BG diet, so guess will do it again next year.

Well, live and learn. Hopefully I'll make different mistakes next year.


Anthropic, Tilapia are opportunistic feeders, and always go for the easiest, least competed for forage. If lots of FHM and little FA is around, the TP will target the FHM. If FA is present and abundant, TP are not about to waste energy chasing live bait over casually browsing an all you can eat buffet.

Also, with a pH of 5.5 and a lower end alkalinity, 8-10 ton of ag lime per surface acre, and as much watershed as possible would make a huge difference! With pH that low, fertilizing won't likely be utilized, or noticed, bloom wise.

Last edited by Rainman; 10/28/16 06:55 PM.


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Originally Posted By: Rainman
Yolkie...knowing a tad bit bout your Tilapia, I'd lay odds the TP are biting your jigs and other baits mostly when other forage, like FA are scarce.

I think you're exactly right, Rex--I've only caught them on artificials in the upper pond that you stocked the last couple years, which has enough flow through to prevent buildup of a lot of nutrients and FA/vegetation. They eat what FA is present, and I suspect quite a bit of the muck in the upper end of the pond as well. Even without a "buffet", they do seem to reproduce well, and haven't had a negative effect on the lepomids that I can detect. As you know, I don't manage that pond for LMB, so I'm not sure if they're having much of an effect there.

BTW-shoot me a text if you're running any trout this year.

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Originally Posted By: TGW1
.... I would be adding double or 1.5 times the recommended Fhm stocking plans. But that is just me. They are not to costly to stock ...


Just curious....for me to stock 100+ pounds of FHM in Illinois it would be around $1k+. TP are not legal here so I don't know what 150 pounds of small TP would cost. About what do FHM and TP cost per pound for you guys down south?


Last edited by Bill D.; 10/28/16 09:03 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac
Originally Posted By: anthropic
I have three feeders going, total of about 60 seconds a day. Say four to five pounds daily. The larger RES, CNBG and BG were doing well on this Optimal BG diet, so guess will do it again next year.

Thanks for the info.
Seems like the tilapia should have gone nuts with that much food coming into the lake, did they shock up a lot of tilapia during the survey?


Yolk, we didn't see huge numbers of TP, but the ones we did were by far the largest fish in the lake. Not exactly what I wanted!

I should add that the initial adult TP stocking was NOT done by Overton. They were surprised to hear about it. In view of my situation, they went out of their way to get only the 2 - 3 inch TP that my small LMB could eat before winter. Classy folks!

Bill D., the adult TP run around $10 lb. In the fall the price dropped to $6 lb, as winter comes on.

Last edited by anthropic; 10/29/16 02:54 AM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Originally Posted By: TGW1
Frank, I'm really sorry to hear about your fish problems but I think you will get to where u want to be, by following Overton's recommendations. It will just take a few more months to get there. So, the newly added small Tp will feed the LSL lmb when the water cools down along with feeding some of them now, is that the plan? If so, what happens if we have a winter like last yr where the water did not cool down till late January? The Tp will grow pretty fast if we have as mild of a fall and winter as last year. I would follow Overton's recommendations for sure but I would be adding double or 1.5 times the recommended Fhm stocking plans. But that is just me. They are not to costly to stock and can be picked up at Overton's by the boxes full and reduce transportation cost also. if we have a mild fall and winter maybe the fhm's will get in a spawn before it cools down. My water temp is perfect right now for fhm spawn. Just my 2cents. How is the knee doing?


My knee is improving, Tracy. Still a bit gimpy, but at least I can use it & drive myself again.

I think you're right about the FHM. Walt Overton told me that with the cooler temps you could put almost any amount in the BOW and they'd survive -- until they were eaten, that is. Initially thought 100 - 125 lb, then revised to 200 lb. I'd like 300 lb, because I know the TP and BG will also be dining on them, but will have to check the price out.


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Originally Posted By: anthropic
I should add that the initial adult TP stocking was NOT done by Overton. They were surprised to hear about it. In view of my situation, they went out of their way to get only the 2 - 3 inch TP that my small LMB could eat before winter. Classy folks!

Indeed!
And thanks again for posting your experience-very interesting.

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Bill, TP north of the Mason Dixon line are close to double what they are in the south, due to long distance transportation costs. TP are indeed illegal in Illinois, Iowa, and Missouri, but with TP, you stock brooders in the spring and can get up to 10# forage production to each pound originally stocked over a season. Late season forage is less, because of overwintering savings for growers (and quickly replaced). FHM are a poor choice as forage for larger predators...no reproduction offset, and larger fish end up burning more calories than consumed...FHM are for new ponds with fingerling LMB.



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Replace what is missing from the population now ( for spring) not what was there last year. Stock and habituate BG (3-5 inch) and small tilapia in the early spring. In the alternative you could stock some adult BG and tilapia in the spring. You need to determine if you can get a plankton bloom along with feeding. Other species could also be used if desired.
















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Originally Posted By: ewest
Replace what is missing from the population now ( for spring) not what was there last year. Stock and habituate BG (3-5 inch) and small tilapia in the early spring. In the alternative you could stock some adult BG and tilapia in the spring. You need to determine if you can get a plankton bloom along with feeding. Other species could also be used if desired.


Thanks. You're absolutely right, will have to look at the situation as it exists in spring, not I should have done last year.

Plan to fertilize and add 3 - 5 inch TP, maybe similar size BG as well. Also will add cover, one problem is that little guys have almost no shelter so don't survive long.

Last edited by anthropic; 10/31/16 10:40 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Put in some xmas trees this winter for hiding places this spring. You should be able to collect enough after Christmas at no cost.
















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Originally Posted By: ewest
Put in some xmas trees this winter for hiding places this spring. You should be able to collect enough after Christmas at no cost.


Good idea. I have a lot of sweet gum out on the land, they aren't real big but manage to grow amidst the pines. Would they be good cover? I know oaks aren't the best, not sure about sweet gum.

Last edited by anthropic; 11/01/16 05:47 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Sweetgums work at m place, I have several large ones in the pond. Root balls also work really well. I cut them from sweetgums. Also have some cedar trees of different sizes. The smaller ones I bind together add a cinder block or two for putting them in the right place.


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