Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait Unlimited supply of TFS! SMB/WE/HSB forage?

Hello all,
First time post after reading the Pond Boss forums for months. I am in the process of building 2 forage/silt ponds and 2 main ponds for cool water gamefish. One main pond to go! The first pond about 1 1/2 acre is spring fed with the other main pond being spring/creek water fed. I reached out to TJ today and spent about 1 1/2 hours on the phone discussing the setup for each pond. One question I asked TJ had no experience with concerning TFS, because he lives in Nebraska. He encouraged me to post to find out whether anyone had any experience/advice with stocking TFS as a forage species in addition to his other recommendations in southern/central VA. I have access to an unlimited amount of TFS. If the TFS die off in winter I can always get more. TJ, I cannot put into words how deeply appreciative I am for you taking the time to share your extensive knowledge and experience of cool water fisheries! All replies are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Heppy😎

My pleasure Bobby you've got the makings of an incredible fishery system. My limited experience with TFS suggests they'd be a great forage item for smb, hsb, or we. If TFS are native to VA I'm guessing you've got a shot of overwintering them. Hopefully some expert insight will follow. Welcome to the forum!!!!

They are extremely sensitive to handling, I was getting loads of them in the cast net a couple weeks ago while shrimping off a friends dock at night. I hade a round live well and aeration. By the time I got done shrimping and went 4 miles down the road to the pond they were all but dead.

we did get a bunch of shrimp though and couple trophy CNBG , to bad the dock is gone now after Mathew ....

Bump...Cody or Ewest - what does your experience suggest on TFS as forage for SMB/WE/HSB?

TFS are a great forage for HSB and LMB (certain sizes). They are a pelagic (open water) fish. Don't know how they do with WE. SMB also go off shore and hunt schooling forage so SMB should do great as well. Do keep in mind the temp limits and plankton needs of TFS. They are very high nutritionally for LMB , SMB and HSB. Have heard of some SMB , HSB , Crappie with TFS and FH lakes having good results.

TFS are wonderful SMB forage.
I have not had any luck in introducing them or establishing them in ponds up to 3 acres with SMB--probably because they are such ideal forage that they are preferentially consumed.
Even in a new pond, with really large 4-5" TFS introduced right before spawning in the spring, a relatively small population of SMB was able to nearly eradicate them by late fall.
They might do better in a heavily fertilized pond; these had visibility of up to 5'.
Would love to hear from others who have been successful in their efforts to introduce/maintain TFS in smaller waters.

Thanks for the replies thus far, keep them coming. I am happy to hear that TFS are the ideal forage. Thanks ewest! I am also wondering if a constant supply of TFS was continually introduced throughout the year to both ponds,if this would grow the largest SMB without having to commercial feed aquamax pellets? Anyone know the % protein of TFS? This forum is a must for every pond owner!
Thanks!
Heppy

If your forage base is dense enough in the trophy SMB pond [minnow/shiner species plus YP plus TFS] then supplemental feeding of SMB is likely unnecessary. Some report their SMB turned off pellets once natural forage was available, while this has not been my experience, it still is important to consider - because it could be your experience, also. With that in mind, feeding SMB may not be necessary, however your forage species and YP will benefit from a feeding program, although feeding isn't mandatory by any means. Feeding does enable all fish to grow faster, enables more robust spawns from your forage, and helps push your fishery carrying capacity - just some things to consider.

In your second fishery with plans for WE, HSB, YP, SMB, and HBCP, I would recommend a feeding program. It will relieve pressure off your forage base and help everything grow faster and improve overall fish health. Bear in mind feeding programs can vary in intensity - some owners feed much more sparingly than others. I am in the light feeding program camp myself due to the makeup of my fishery - every scenario varies.

IMHO, the challenge in getting your SMB to trophy size is that it will likely take several years, during which time the SMB will be spawning and recruiting--which will put tremendous pressure on your forage base. SMB just don't grow as fast as LMB; length will increase quickly, but it takes a while to put on the mass that makes a 21 or 22" smallie weigh 4+ lbs. To keep growing, a 3-4lb smallie needs a lot of appropriate sized forage, and it's hard for minnows/perch to get to an ideal prey size when their populations are getting pounded by a couple of other year classes of predators. SMB don't have the reputation for voraciousness that LMB do, but masses of 2-4" smallies swimming around in the late summer will really do a number on YOY forage species. Adding large amounts of TFS will certainly help with this challenge, but that is a lot of TFS to add if following the conventional wisdom that it takes 10lbs of consumed forage to add 1lb of weight to a predators mass. And to keep them growing and in good shape, you'd have to commit to consistently adding the TFS over a long period.


+1. Given the appetites of the numerous predators, I would think a vigorous feeding program would be essential, and even then, I would worry that you'll be forage impoverished within a year or two, without some highly fecund, predator resistant species like BG present. [Ask TJ about the challenges of managing THAT combination, if you want to spend a couple more hours on the phone with him!!]

I think at this point I should mention TJs forage species for both ponds consisted of SS, LCS, FHM in case anyone was wondering. My unlimited supply of TFS is on the way to the ponds which are located about an hour from my residence. A question I thought of today after reading through the replies to this topic is: How many lbs of TFS would be appropriate for both ponds on a yearly basis with the stocking rate as follows
Forage pond 1
FHM 2 lbs spring 17
SS 25 spring 17
Release as needed no sooner than fall 17 FHM spring 18 SS

Trophy Pond 1 (1 -1/2 acre)
SMB 50 fish fall 17
YP 250 fish fall 17
RES 300 spring 17
FHM 1-2 lbs spring 17
TFS ? lbs fall, spring annually
PSC 50 crayfish fall 16

Forage pond 2
FHM 2-3 lbs spring 17
LCS 25 fish spring 17
Release as needed no sooner than fall 17 FHM and spring 18 LCS

Pond 2
Looks like it's going to be about 2 acres
SMB 100 fish fall 17
WE 10 fish per year or possibly more depending on harvest
HSB 50 fish initially fall 17 or spring 18 After that put and take
HBC 125-150 as a put and take fishery fall 17
YP 300 fall 17
RES 300 spring 17
TFS ? lbs fall/spring annually
FHM 3lbs spring 17
PSC 50 crayfish fall 16

TJ feel free to correct me as these are numbers I thought were inline after speaking with you. I decided that I would like to begin stocking predatory fish after one full year. Feel free to adjust the numbers. Kids can't wait!!!

Many thanks to everyone!

Heppy

FYI: Spotfin shiner is SFS just so everyone is on the same page

Trophy Pond 1 (1 -1/2 acre)

SMB 50 fish fall 17 - if you truly want trophy SMB, you could even cut this down to 25-30 SMB. If you could select females only, now that would be huge. Otherwise, eliminate rocky substrate in this pond to help discourage spawning, and YOY SMB are easily netted in larval stage with fine mesh net. I do this every Spring and transfer to grow out pond.

YP 250 fish fall 17 - you could bump this up also if you want - YP will help SMB by providing additional forage and I think forage competition should be minimal once SMB get up to 12-14".

RES 300 spring 17 - recommended to graze on snails and help manage black/yellow grub. Juvenile RES will only help provide some forage also, and allows you another target fish for angling. Imagine your RES will grow well with no competition for their favored forage items.

FHM 1-2 lbs spring 17 - Hand sort these to sort invasives, verify ID on every fish, and a pound or two given a season or more to reproduce will provide a nice population for your SMB and YP to hammer and put on weight fast.

TFS ? lbs fall, spring annually - Sounds like a plan, just be sure to sort these too to avoid any invasives.

PSC 50 crayfish fall 16 - verify ID per our conversation - avoid burrowing species.

I think you can also add BNM, LCS and SFS to help provide additional forage species for the SMB. Since you have forage cells you can raise your own exotics and will be the envy of many of us! I can teach you a trick to help SMB attain fast growth I learned from Dr Dave and Bruce - and it's a lot of fun, too.

Just curious, How are you going to catch the TFS and transport them with out them being nearly all dead on arrival. Apparently IM doing something wrong.

FYI nutrient content

Great intel, Eric. Has anyone ever tried introducing alewife in northern ponds? They serve as the forage backbone for several NE reservoirs and grow huge WE, HSB and SMB.

TJ, SFS thank you for the correction and the plan for the Trophy pond. I will adhere to your plan. BobbyRice, as far as handling the TFS is concerned, For over 2 decades I have used a cast net, then hand sorted and placed them in an oval uninsulated filtered livewell that gets the water directly from the lake. The water is is circulated from a bilge pump drawing water from the lake to the livewell when I am not moving the boat. This constantly changes the water. I'm thinking that I might not have to do anything other than run the bilge pump with aeration for the 1/2 hour road trip to my ponds. If that doesn't work I will fill another container with lake water using my bilge pump and continually circulate between the two for travel. In the fall, spring, and winter I have excellent survival rates of alewives, TFS and GZS In the summer very good success, constantly running the system from lake to boat circulation . Ewest, thank you for the information on GZS, TFS, and Alwives. The lake has all three species as forage. Does anyone think that if I added alewives to the forage there would be any detrimental effects? Sorry for taking a little while to respond. I've been at the farm working where I have no cell service. Heading back there now.

Thanks!
Heppy

TJ and Heppy - I don't know of people adding alewives to a pond up north or other places. I know in some big waters they can cause problems with native species (like any herbivore fish can do ) but should be no problem in a small managed water. My guess is the hard part will be gauging the right numbers of each. I would not expect to be able to establish an ongoing population of all species however. Not so for gizzard shad I would avoid them in your situation. Alewives and TFS are similar in size where Gshad get too big.

I just emailed TJ some of the creek critters my oldest son caught today for identification. This is all new to me and as of yet, I am not sure how to post. Thanks for all the information ewest! I really value your input. One question I thought of today is if you could use dead frozen peanut GZS to feed train SMB and HSB? My son is doing that in his aquarium at home for a single LMB. I was wondering if SMB and HSB could be done the same way without any detrimental effects to the pond??? The reason for my question is that right now I can catch as many pounds as my truck could hold in a very short amount of time. I would love to hear any opinions/experiences if y'all don't mind sharing.

Thanks!

Heppy

I would give it a try in limited amounts. Just be sure they are dead.

Thanks ewest! Iwill catch them this or next fall and feed the winter of 17. Pond 2 finished! TJ do you have a plan for me to follow for the non trophy Pond 2? It will fill before any of the other ponds and forage pond 2 will finish topping out the same day because they are inline with the same creek inlet. TJ did you identify the creek critters?
Thanks
Heppy

Hand feeding predator fish from a dock is fun and will work. Takes some time to train - frozen fish works fine just thaw before feeding so they sink and fish prefer their forage thawed! Call me on the other questions...not sure I understand.

Photos too blurry for me to positive id - sorry.

The fish are not going to be very active during winter due to cold water temps.

What are goals here? If it's average size and high frequency angling - here's a starting point assuming you will employ feeding program:


Pond 2
Looks like it's going to be about 2 acres
SMB 100 fish fall 17 - can go 50-100/ac

WE 10 fish per year or possibly more depending on harvest - I'd ladder stock 10-15 fish annually for standing population of 25-30/ac. Depending on growth and body condition can adjust from there.

HSB 50 fish initially fall 17 or spring 18 After that put and take

25/acre ladder stock 10-15 fish annually. If you want to harvest or catch more frequently you can bump numbers.

HBC 125-150 as a put and take fishery fall 17

75-100/ac Keep track of harvest and supplementally stock later.

YP 300 fall 17

150-300/ac depending on your harvest goals

RES 300 spring 17

If sole lepomis species, you would be safe with 250/ac

TFS ? lbs fall/spring annually
FHM 3lbs spring 17
PSC 50 crayfish fall 16

Forage looks fine. If you raise BNM, SFS or LCS in forage ponds you can add them in both ponds, too.

TJ,
Thank you for posting Pond 2 stocking information. Sorry about the blurry pictures. I have not completely made up my mind about pellet feeding. Looking at ewest's numbers on protein and fat content, I might exclusively feed dead GZS, TFS and alewives just to see how much growth I get. There will be live FHM, PSC and TFS put in both ponds by spring. I'm thinking I will place BNM and SFS in one forage cell and FHM and LCS in the other in spring. They will be put into each pond next fall as needed after spawning. Does this sound about right. Also, what size of each fish for both ponds do you recommend for initial stocking?

Thanks!

Heppy

Since you are absentee land owner, you likely won't be hand feeding fish often enough to make much difference, just keep that in mind.

I assume your question regarding stocking size of fish is in regards to game fish? You usually don't have much choice...I always buy the largest fish I can afford, but that's just me.

TJ, I'm glad you reminded me that I will be an absentee land owner. It only makes sense to feed. I got a little carried away with myself dreaming. Sorry about that.
Heppy