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#457503 10/12/16 03:03 PM
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I was talking to hatchery and they will have some pellet trained SMB in the Spring. They said SMB are quick to go off the feed and you will need to walk around the pond to feed as they aren't conditioned in one area like HSB or HBG . Pond will be at my house so don't mind walking and I will be hand feeding. Just curious if others have found this to be the case with feeding SMB.

My pond should be in the 3/4-1 acre range and will be stocking HSB, HBG, SMB...maybe some YP.


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For my SMB the moment I introduced live forage forget about pellets.

They were hitting pellets, then I introduced minnows, and when I drop pellets (there are catfish and LMB in same rear pond) the smallies ignore them and wait for minnows or worms. One smallie gave in after 4 days and started hitting pellets until next round of live forage, and then it was "starve" for days again. Another smallie just won't take anything but live.

So if they are on pellets you might find it hard to keep them on it if they find live forage in your pond.

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I think one thing that tends to keep SMB feeding on pellets has to do with how long the SMB were exclusively eating pellets before being turned loose in the pond. It is all about the length of conditioning. Briefer conditioning periods results in more fish going off pellet feeding.


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In my experience, my larger SMB like to run with schools of HSB and hammer pellets along side them. It's cool to watch, they are in some cases nearly 6-8 lbs lighter, but manage to hang with the big dogs. I can't explain why some of my SMB have remained on pellets, perhaps these are original fish per Cody. Side note: Both SMB and HSB vastly prefer AM LMB formula over anything I've offered to date [Optimal, Skretting various formulas and pellet sizes]. Something about the AM LMB nugget turns those larger fish on like nothing else does.


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I was hoping SMB would eventually run with the HSB, my plan for this pond is going to be very little natural forage stocked . My plan is to stock in the Spring and feed heavily and aerate. HSB, HBG, SMB, , maybe some YP. What size for the HSB and SMB before they can take the AM LMB?

Given pond is 3/4 -1 acre was thinking:
40 HSB 8-12in
25 SMB 4-6 in
200/250 HBG 4-6in
50 YP 4-6in

Going to be heavy fishing pressure so want new classes stocked every couple years and harvest the slow growers. Don't think there will be much success in recruitment given the lack of natural forage but wouldn't mind if the SMB had some success.

Thought?


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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Both SMB and HSB vastly prefer AM LMB formula over anything I've offered to date [Optimal, Skretting various formulas and pellet sizes]. Something about the AM LMB nugget turns those larger fish on like nothing else does.

Just to totally confuse the issue, my SMB would hammer the LMB pellets when they landed in the water, then immediately spit them out. Never did take to them, even when I tried hydrating, or even breaking in half. I'd like to try again now that I have HSB in the pond, as competition does seem to get the smallies stirred up. I do see some SMB taking AM 600 and Optimal, as well as the larger Skretting pellets, and I catch smaller and midsized SMB on pellet imitations occasionally--but rarely the larger fish.

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Originally Posted By: beastman
I was hoping SMB would eventually run with the HSB, my plan for this pond is going to be very little natural forage stocked . My plan is to stock in the Spring and feed heavily and aerate. HSB, HBG, SMB, , maybe some YP. What size for the HSB and SMB before they can take the AM LMB?

Given pond is 3/4 -1 acre was thinking:
40 HSB 8-12in
25 SMB 4-6 in
200/250 HBG 4-6in
50 YP 4-6in

Going to be heavy fishing pressure so want new classes stocked every couple years and harvest the slow growers. Don't think there will be much success in recruitment given the lack of natural forage but wouldn't mind if the SMB had some success.

Thought?


What are your goals for the fishery?


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Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac


Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Both SMB and HSB vastly prefer AM LMB formula over anything I've offered to date [Optimal, Skretting various formulas and pellet sizes]. Something about the AM LMB nugget turns those larger fish on like nothing else does.

Just to totally confuse the issue, my SMB would hammer the LMB pellets when they landed in the water, then immediately spit them out. Never did take to them, even when I tried hydrating, or even breaking in half. I'd like to try again now that I have HSB in the pond, as competition does seem to get the smallies stirred up. I do see some SMB taking AM 600 and Optimal, as well as the larger Skretting pellets, and I catch smaller and midsized SMB on pellet imitations occasionally--but rarely the larger fish.


It does confuse the issue, and I don't particularly appreciate it, either. Feel free to post experiences that support my specific observations.

I think presence of HSB is significant influence...I've never had species segregated in my main pond, so my experience with SMB hammering AMLMB pellets has been consistent over the years as they've always swam with the HSB. Just as the presence of HBG sparks BG feeding, I think HSB presence also impacts SMB feeding...at least my experience suggests this. I can say brood SMB feeding in my reproduction cells in the past was tepid at best - and all those fish were caught on pellet imitations. I'm assuming once they were re-introduced to the main pond they reverted to more aggressive feeding.





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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
It does confuse the issue, and I don't particularly appreciate it, either. Feel free to post experiences that support my specific observations.

I will hasten to remedy my deficiencies. I'm guessing that perhaps your LMB pellets are stored in the same building that houses your Green Egg, and perhaps your custom made charcoal, and are thereby imbued with that smooth, mellow flavor favored by SMB. Since I am completely devoid of such talents, and my SMB are of Southern origin, I'll try deep frying a few this weekend.

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Goals for the fishery are high catch rates, quality fish, don't need a 'trophy' . I have
3 kids and many friends and family will fish the pond.... Have a pool and pond being built over the next 4-5 months so a lot of parties and get togethers . Want a put and take pond to keep hook shy to minimum and introduce new fish on a consistent basis.

I read a lot about others wishing they had multiple smaller ponds..... If I can do an acre , would it be better to do a 3/4 and a 1/4 acre and have 2 ponds? Could raise some forage and experiment with the smaller? Probably just doing one but making me think....

Ideal situation would be for kids to catch some nice HBG/ YP with the occasional HSB or SMB.

I will enjoy the feeding and managing , and occasional fishing but want to see others have fun....


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Good grief; first it was Tony and now Thomas is hammering Doc Yolkie. David, have you considered taking some touchy/feely training? Or maybe sending them some prepaid conflict resolution materials.


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Yolkie are you stocking some HSB this Fall? If so, I will be very curious to see how your SMB respond during feeding. I suspect you'll be able to turn a few.


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Originally Posted By: beastman
I was hoping SMB would eventually run with the HSB, my plan for this pond is going to be very little natural forage stocked . My plan is to stock in the Spring and feed heavily and aerate. HSB, HBG, SMB, , maybe some YP. What size for the HSB and SMB before they can take the AM LMB?

Given pond is 3/4 -1 acre was thinking:
40 HSB 8-12in
25 SMB 4-6 in
200/250 HBG 4-6in
50 YP 4-6in

Going to be heavy fishing pressure so want new classes stocked every couple years and harvest the slow growers. Don't think there will be much success in recruitment given the lack of natural forage but wouldn't mind if the SMB had some success.

Thought?


For clients who want average sized fish with higher angling frequency, these are the numbers I recommend per acre assuming they will employ a supplemental feeding program:

50-100 SMB
25-50 HSB
500-750 HBG
250 RES
150-350 YP

Personal goals will alter these numbers significantly, but this guide might help you make decisions. If you are light or heavy on these numbers after a few seasons you can always supplementally stock or harvest to nudge populations more in line with your goals. Bear in mind your goals may change after a few seasons, too. Good news with these fish species is in my experience their population dynamics are far easier to manage/affect than species like LMB or BG.

Few examples: SMB yoy are easily collected via 1/32 mesh net in Spring - and if WRs are low you can easily remove 10-15 fish.

Same for low WR HSB - either increase feeding times or harvest a few.

YP populations can be managed through angling and harvesting all males and removing egg strands in Spring.

Keep all female HBG and low WR fish caught. Introduce new HBG genetics every few seasons to keep genetics from reverting to GSF per Cody.



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Wow, those are more than I expected but glad to see it. Can I stock all at the same time given sizes allow it? If water levels allow would there be any harm in stocking some trout late in the Winter or early Spring before anything else is stocked ( talking maybe 25-30 at 1lb )

Over time wouldn't even successful spawning be heavily preyed upon? It sounds like there are some things I can do to limit it myself as you described. Angling and harvesting shouldn't be an issue as there will be heavy pressure.
Thanks for the info, I was hoping you would respond as it sounds like you have had great success in managing similar types of fish.


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I recommend deciding on forage base and allowing time for it to grow before stocking your apex predators. What forage base have you decided upon? I recommend FHM this Spring, papershell crayfish, and BNM or SFS if you can source them. You could stock HBG and RES next late Summer/early Fall. I would personally wait on the YP, SMB and HSB until the following year when your forage base is stronger. Your RES and HSB shouldn't impact it too much, but you could certainly wait to stock them in the Summer/Fall 2018 also.


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Myself and the kids are impatient so while I know getting a forage base going is the correct thing to do I don't think I will have the patience for it. If I reduced the numbers and fed pellets as the main forage could I get away with stocking in the Spring? My thought is if everything I stock is pellet trained shouldn't that work? If I was to stock some FHM and make some habitat would they have a fighting chance to spawn and multiply if I can keep most of the predators fed heavily with pellets? If I stocked YP first wouldn't their yoy help with forage as well?

Just trying to fast forward the process .... but I know there will be challenges and limitations in doing so.....


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double or triple up on your forage stocking rate might help


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In my experience, no matter how dense my FHM population has ever grown to, once SMB or HSB are introduced they were extirpated in a matter of months. If you are in a hurry Bobby is right, only way to do it is money whip it with denser forage stockings.

I share and understand your impatience but strongly encourage you establish a strong forage base prior to stocking apex predators. You've waited a lifetime for the pond, what's another season to do it the proven way? Ultimately it's up to you of course.


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So if the FHM are finished after a couple months after giving them that much of a jump start how does that sustain? Are those 2 months of heavey feeding on FHM that important or is it a way my to alleviate some of the pressure on the other forage to get established? Depending on cost maybe I do a 3x stock from the start and give it a smaller amount of time then stock the apex. I will do some research on the forum, maybe section off some of the pond to alleviate some of the pressure on the FHM and then release in stages....


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FWIW....

IME The FHM do not have to be "gone in a few months" if you have the correct habitat to protect them and provide spawn areas. I still have FHM after 2 years but their numbers are diminished to a point where they are not a significant source of forage. My vote goes for putting in piles of broken concrete slab, boulder piles, vegetation etc to get habitat for your forage and stocking them first. I have populations of FHM, BNM, SFS, PSC, BG and PS in my pond today but I spent BIG bucks getting habitat and populations in place "after the fact" instead of doing it right and getting the forage and their habitat in place first.

Another thing you might want to consider is we are coming into winter. No matter what forage species you stock now, they will not begin reproducing until the water warms in the spring.

...Just my 1 cent

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
FWIW....

IME The FHM do not have to be "gone in a few months" if you have the correct habitat to protect them and provide spawn areas. I still have FHM after 2 years but their numbers are diminished to a point where they are not a significant source of forage. My vote goes for putting in piles of broken concrete slab, boulder piles, vegetation etc to get habitat for your forage and stocking them first. I have populations of FHM, BNM, SFS, PSC, BG and PS in my pond today but I spent BIG bucks getting habitat and populations in place "after the fact" instead of doing it right and getting the forage and their habitat in place first.

Another thing you might want to consider is we are coming into winter. No matter what forage species you stock now, they will not begin reproducing until the water warms in the spring.

...Just my 1 cent


I too have a strong, self sustaining FHM population in a .3 acre pond with female YP and male BG - interestingly 90% of all FHM I sample are juveniles, I think the adults are hit pretty hard by the YP. However, I don't think we're comparing apples here on Mutt pond or my YP/BG fishery, unless your fishery consists of these species and population density in a 1 ac pond. Each of those species are pretty adept at hammering FHM, even RES and HBG, but maybe your experience managing these species is different than mine? I don't see the parallels between our fisheries and his proposed one listed below, and my advice is based specifically on these species below at these stocking densities.

50-100 SMB
25-50 HSB
500-750 HBG
250 RES
150-350 YP



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My FHM population is sustaining, and I've had (60) SMB stocked for a little over a year. I've also got some GSH stocked from April of last year. When my feeder actually goes off, I see schools of smaller fish hitting the pellets that are along the bank.
I've caught several SMB this summer, all have been very healthy. Maybe I under stocked SMB, but I was so overstocked on YP I went with lower numbers.
(.75 acre pond, with current draught)


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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SetterGuy,
I have no predators and stocked 100 perch in a .25 acre pond. I think I had a tiny amount of recruitment the first year judging by a few 3-4" size perch present now. I had more recruitment this spring even though I took out many egg strands.

When I hand feed I also see lots of 2-4" fish flashing, jumping and going nuts. I always assumed they were GSH YOY but couldn't get a positive ID. I put my new minnow trap in the vicinity of the hand feeding and I can trap a handful of 3-4 YP only in it. Whether that means the 'minnows' chasing the pellets around the shallows and pushing them around are teams of YP young or if there can be some GSH in there I can't really say for sure. I would expect to see stripes on the YP young but the ones that I can see in the shallows chasing the pellets don't have stripes but they don't stop moving long enough to be sure.

Understocking the SMB was a good idea.

Your GSH should be about 4-5" by now? Not sure if they would have produced young this summer but there is a good chance they could have.

Glad to hear your FHM can survive and sustain. I can't say the same for myself.

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If I end up stocking the FHM just before or at the same time as the other fish how many lbs assuming 1 acre pond? Would it help to give the YP a head start and spawn to help with the bait fish numbers? I have also contemplated adding some trout late winter/ early Spring (20-25) so would probably add FHM at that time as well. Would some GSH be an option for baitfish at time of stocking and have a chance to establish more than FHM?


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beastman says "I know getting a forage base going is the correct thing to do I don't think I will have the patience for it. If I reduced the numbers and fed pellets as the main forage could I get away with stocking in the Spring? My thought is if everything I stock is pellet trained shouldn't that work? If I was to stock some FHM and make some habitat would they have a fighting chance to spawn and multiply if I can keep most of the predators fed heavily with pellets? If I stocked YP first wouldn't their yoy help with forage as well?"

Initial stocking all pellet trained fish does take a lot of predation pressure off the FHM and any other small fish. Not all the stocker fish will stay on pellets, but many will continue to eat pellets. Percentage that ramain on pellets is variable and depends primarily on the species, size of stockers, how long they have been trained to eat pellets and how long or how many generations the brood stock has been domesticated to pellet feeding. Usually the major loss of the FHM occurs when the offspring of the stocker fish are not pellet eaters and are big enough to eat breeder size FHM.

Beastman then asks "If I end up stocking the FHM just before or at the same time as the other fish how many lbs assuming 1 acre pond?" The answer depends on several things and one of them is how many fish will be eating FHM. My general rule at a minimum, is to plan on each predator fish to eat one FHM minnow every day the water temp is above 50F. Note this amount of food may only produce a minimal growth rate. A fast growing smaller bass 5"-8" can eat 3 or more minnows per day depending on minnow size. It is up to you to do the math.

On average - FHM 1" long has 700-800/lb; FHM 1.5" has around 500-600/lb; FHM 2" has 300-350/lb.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/21/16 09:57 AM.

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On a pond where the owner wants fast predator growth, AND the predators are stocked lightly, I will recommend 50# of Fatheads and 50# of Golden Shiners per surface acre, and that is with stocking pellet trained fish and feeding them a good quality fish food.

ALSO, there is habitat in the pond to help reduce the predation on the minnow population AND to help them reproduce. Without that, even Golden Shiners can be wiped out from the pond in a year or two, even with pellet trained fish being fed pellets.

You can see WR's of fish in the 140-160+ range doing that. i.e., an 18.5" LMB that should weigh 3.5# can weigh 6 pounds...... wink grin


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Given an overabundance of small prey fish, how long does it take for 4-5" SMB to grow 18" long? I only added 10 SMB to a 1 acre pond full of small fish from a stocking of 50 GSH, 25 YP, 25 RES, and 5 lbs of FHM a couple years earlier. I see a great many 1-3" fry in the pond. Also, I was planning to wait until 2018 to start fishing. Is there any reason to start earlier? This spring I caught FHM and small YP and GSH in a minnow trap.

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Originally Posted By: RAH
Given an overabundance of small prey fish, how long does it take for 4-5" SMB to grow 18" long? I only added 10 SMB to a 1 acre pond full of small fish from a stocking of 50 GSH, 25 YP, 25 RES, and 5 lbs of FHM a couple years earlier. I see a great many 1-3" fry in the pond. Also, I was planning to wait until 2018 to start fishing. Is there any reason to start earlier? This spring I caught FHM and small YP and GSH in a minnow trap.


I can tell you the answer if you can tell me how many pounds of forage you have in the pond for them to eat. Those 10 SMB will have to eat roughly 350 - 400 pounds of fish to grow to 18".

I would fish it for the SMB once a month next year, weigh and measure the SMB when caught and track their growth. That way you know whether to add more forage or not. If there is spawning habitat in the pond for them, once they spawn the offspring will consume part of the forage base too.


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I'll try that next year. It will be fun to see how big the perch are as well. A large RES would fun too. I was looking for SMB growth rate assuming no shortage of forage fish. I also have papershell crayfish in there and had added a dozen 3" LCS awhile back but do not know if they survived. I was thinking 3 years for 4" SMB to reach 18" if food was plentiful, but maybe 4 years? I do have rock piles in 2-5 feet of water. I posted pictures of them here on a thread before the pond filled.

RAH #458163 10/25/16 09:46 AM
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If you stocked 4" SMB in the Spring, and they had all that they wanted to eat, I'd bet you would see 18" fish in less than 2 years. Now, be mindful that a 4"-6" fish needs to eat different sized forage fish than a 14"-16" fish to keep the growth rate high..... It's all about calories in vs. calories expended. Fish that are stressed don't eat as much as fish that aren't stressed. Stressors are water quality issues (including O2 levels), harassment from predators, etc.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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My hopes are high and my expectations are low:) Thanks for the info!

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