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#250261 - 03/03/11 08:21 PM parasite question
sprkplug Offline
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Registered: 06/02/08
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Loc: Freedom, Indiana
I'm hoping someone can help me with a question regarding the Clinostomum parasite. When I stocked HBG in march of 2009, I also put in 25 male BG, of a considerably larger size, that I transferred over from another pond. There were no visible signs of parasite infestation in the native BG, or the smaller HBG. During my limited ice fishing forays this winter, I caught 3 native BG that were absolutely covered with yellow grubs. I'm aware of the bird, snail, fish, lifecycle of Clinostomum, so I know how they got in the pond, and my fish, I just don't understand why only the BG were so infested? There's approx. 500 HBG, compared to 25 native BG in that pond. I've only caught 8 Hybrids total since the initial stocking that had any visible parasites. And even then there were just a couple grubs per fish. Nothing like the native BG, their fins, tails, and gills were full, worst cases I have ever seen. My question is this: When the cercaria leaves the snail to find a fish host, what determines a suitable candidate? Is it the first fish that comes along, or are there factors at work that may tend to make certain fish more susceptible?
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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#250304 - 03/04/11 09:51 AM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
MRHELLO Offline
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Loc: N.E. OKLAHOMA
I always wondered this as well, plus once on one fish will they drop off or attach to another fish or something else. Or is this when the Birds come in and eat the fish then the parasite starts over either from falling out of the mouth or passing through the system.

Also do these parasites first start on the outside and then move into the flesh or the other way around.

Has anyone ever caught a RES that had the parasite? Why do they not get them from eating the infested snail?

Thanks

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#250306 - 03/04/11 10:14 AM Re: parasite question [Re: MRHELLO]
Bluegillerkiller Offline
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Registered: 09/08/09
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Not to hijack your thread.. But I caught a few BG yesterday and noticed a few with yellow spots in there fins and tails.. I've never noticed them before but doubt this is there first year.. Quick question, do they ever just go away on there own. I've caught and filleted 100's and never seen it in the meat.. I was just thinking maybe I'm in the beginning of an infestation or the infestation just is staying under control naturally.. Once again sorry to drop the in your thread and guys if you think this topic needs it's own thread I'll erase this and move it...
Thanks
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#250312 - 03/04/11 10:35 AM Re: parasite question [Re: Bluegillerkiller]
Cody Veach Offline


Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 384
Loc: Central PA
I have noticed more parasites in early spring then anyother time of year. I wounder if it has somthing to do with there imune system being more stressed after winter? You could keep a bucket of saltwater next to you while fishing and give them saltwater dips to kill the parasites. Dont think it would be very productive.

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#250314 - 03/04/11 10:37 AM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I'm hoping someone can help me with a question regarding the Clinostomum parasite. When I stocked HBG in march of 2009, I also put in 25 male BG, of a considerably larger size, that I transferred over from another pond. There were no visible signs of parasite infestation in the native BG, or the smaller HBG. During my limited ice fishing forays this winter, I caught 3 native BG that were absolutely covered with yellow grubs. I'm aware of the bird, snail, fish, lifecycle of Clinostomum, so I know how they got in the pond, and my fish, I just don't understand why only the BG were so infested? There's approx. 500 HBG, compared to 25 native BG in that pond. I've only caught 8 Hybrids total since the initial stocking that had any visible parasites. And even then there were just a couple grubs per fish. Nothing like the native BG, their fins, tails, and gills were full, worst cases I have ever seen. My question is this: When the cercaria leaves the snail to find a fish host, what determines a suitable candidate? Is it the first fish that comes along, or are there factors at work that may tend to make certain fish more susceptible?


My guess is the regular bluegills are using a slightly different habitat than the hybrids and therefore are more susceptible, i.e. they are closer to the bottom in shallower water near the snails and the hybrids are more suspended out away from the snails feeding on perhaps pellets if you feed your fish.

The reason I say this is when the free swimming cercariae leave the snail, they only live for a very short period of time, and may not live long enough to penetrate fish farther out away from the snails.

Although the cycle may be the same, are you sure these are Clinostomum? I was under the assumption that they were muscle and fin borers vs. clinging to gills. There are parasites that can be mistaken for others. Or maybe I misunderstood?

Some parasites infect directly by ingestion of the snail and arthropods, and if this is one of them, your bluegills may be selecting snails(yes bluegills do eat snails), or certain arthropods while the hybrids are feeding on something else exclusively -- like pellets.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (03/04/11 10:59 AM)
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#250315 - 03/04/11 10:44 AM Re: parasite question [Re: Cody Veach]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Cody Veach
I have noticed more parasites in early spring then anyother time of year. I wounder if it has somthing to do with there imune system being more stressed after winter? You could keep a bucket of saltwater next to you while fishing and give them saltwater dips to kill the parasites. Dont think it would be very productive.


Yes fish are more stressed coming out of winter, and the spawning period, which is in the spring for the sunfish family is stressful. If the water is still cool or there are major swings in water temps (common in early spring) they are compromised a little in immune response and are stressed.

A salt dip is very effective on EXTERNAL parasites if done correctly, but obviously only on those fish that are dipped. For very weakened fish a salt bath would be a better choice as a salt dip for them could kill them.

If you want to read all about salt treatments of fish here is an article written by a Dr. Myron Kebus that is a well know fish pathologist in Wisconsin. I know he's referring to Koi but the same principal applies to other species although species do vary on their sensitivity to salt treatments.

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/ponds/Kebus_Salt_Treatments.html

When I dip I remove the fish and put it back in the original water after it goes on it's side. Refer to the article for the amount to add to water.

If I had a parasite problem in any of my ponds I'd take five gallon bucket mixed to a 3 percent saltwater solution and do some fishing. Before releasing I'd dip the fish in the solution and as soon as it goes on it's side I throw it back into the pond.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (03/04/11 01:09 PM)
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If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#250318 - 03/04/11 10:54 AM Re: parasite question [Re: Bluegillerkiller]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
Not to hijack your thread.. But I caught a few BG yesterday and noticed a few with yellow spots in there fins and tails.. I've never noticed them before but doubt this is there first year.. Quick question, do they ever just go away on there own. I've caught and filleted 100's and never seen it in the meat.. I was just thinking maybe I'm in the beginning of an infestation or the infestation just is staying under control naturally.. Once again sorry to drop the in your thread and guys if you think this topic needs it's own thread I'll erase this and move it...
Thanks


From my understanding the metacercariae (grub in the muscle) don't leave the fish, and complete the cycle when the fish is consumed by a bird such as the GBH. (If this is the clinostomum.)
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#250328 - 03/04/11 12:00 PM Re: parasite question [Re: Cecil Baird1]
Bill Cody Offline
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Is there someone (Shawn Banks??) that can verify that the white or yellow grubs stay in the fish for its entire life span if that fish as infected as a fingerling? If the grubs stay, they could be in a fish for 6-15 yrs? In addition, the infected fish could collect additional new grubs if the source of contamination continues and the fish behaves the same way as when infected. I was told by an 'old geezer' fish farm guy that some fingerlings (he was referring to fingerling SMB) will 'clean up' or rid themselves of some parasites with aging or if transferred to new water and stored there for a time. Do you suppose this was bad info? How could we verify this stuff? Anyone now a 'hot shot' fish parasite guy. Shawn Banks has had fish parasite training. Anyone have contact info for him? Shawn may know someone who knows more about this? I have more questions than good answers.


Edited by Bill Cody (03/04/11 12:08 PM)
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#250331 - 03/04/11 12:28 PM Re: parasite question [Re: Cecil Baird1]
sprkplug Offline
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Registered: 06/02/08
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Loc: Freedom, Indiana
Cecil you could be right, I am basing my identification on what I was told by a biologist, but in fairness to him, he didn't see my fish, he was going off of my description of the parasite.
It really was the worst infestation I've seen, with the tails, dorsal and anal fins, pectoral fins, and yes, when the fish would flare it's gills I could see the grubs just under the surface of the gill arches. I was thinking that there had to be some difference in behaviour that would account for the native BG having the parasite so much worse than the HBG. You could be right on the feeding, as the HBG are pellet fed, and the BG pretty much just rely on foraging. Just for curiosities sake, how long do the free swimming cercariae live after leaving the snail?

Bill, I hope there is someone who can enlighten us further, as, like you said, I have a lot of questions.

Thanks for everyone's input so far.
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

Top
#335225 - 05/17/13 04:10 PM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
Reviving an old thread that seems to be the closest for my questions. If anybody knows of links to parasite threads that deal with it, please let me know.

I went fishing today at a friends pond that wanted to thin down BG numbers. Got home and started cleaning fish. They were loaded with worms like I have never seen. In the meat, black spots that opened up a worm. I'm describing it, because I don't know the proper name of this worm. No pictures in other threads to help identify it. This got me thinking about the scenario at the pond, and that no RES were caught. At his other pond, there are many RES with no problems of worms/parasites.

1)What's the actual name of this type of worm so I can research it more? (sounds different than what's mentioned above?)

2) How is it that RE stops the cycle--or otherwise, don't they get it? They eat snails, but does that kill it?

3)Does the fish have it for their whole life once it's in them?

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#335234 - 05/17/13 06:15 PM Re: parasite question [Re: fish n chips]
JKB Offline
Hall of Fame 2015
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Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 6692
Loc: Michigan
This may have some info: http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/fisheries/parasites

I have a book on Trout and Salmon Diseases, and trust me, it's got some pretty gross stuff in it.

At least I found my Barnes & Noble membership card stuck on the inside back. Boy, that was a long time ago!

Are you sure your not reacting to the pustule thing? wink laugh

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#335238 - 05/17/13 06:45 PM Re: parasite question [Re: JKB]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
Originally Posted By: JKB
Are you sure your not reacting to the pustule thing? wink laugh


It sure seems like I can't get away from them lately!!! People are going to think this is an obsession with me. I did not clean the rest of them. I understand that they are safe to eat with proper care, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it with that vivid dream of yours. sick

So from that link JKB, it looks like it is called by common name "black spot" (how appropriate), or Neascus spp, or Uvulifer spp. Exellent picture of it there to. That's exactly what it looked like. Would you have ate it?

Now what about the RES. How do they keep it controlled without getting it? Is it because they ingest the snail and kill it there? The worm can't enter the meat when it's in the stomach? Seems like they would just cycle it back into the water......

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#335263 - 05/17/13 10:31 PM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
sprkplug Offline
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Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6945
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
How bad was the infestation? I eat fish like this all the time:



To my understanding, RES consume the infected snail during the parasite's first larval stage. If left undisturbed, the parasite will emerge from the snail as a free-swimming second stage larvae, where it will seek out a fish to act as a host. According to Cecil, the second stage larval form will only live for a short time after leaving the snail, so perhaps the reason we don't see as many infected RES has to do with their generally lower population density when compared to BG, and maybe their preferred habitat is slightly deeper, or at least puts them out of reach of many of the parasites?

Just guessing....
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

Top
#335288 - 05/18/13 07:38 AM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
How bad was the infestation? I eat fish like this all the time:



Yep it looked like that. Do your fish look that way all the time SP? I assume you have RES in your ponds to help control them.

I know I've come across them once in awhile, but this just totally threw me for a loop. When the knife hit one of those black spot just right, the worm would pop out. Couldn't clean the rest, knowing that even if I could handle it, the wife is a different story.

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#335290 - 05/18/13 07:43 AM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
Originally Posted By: sprkplug

To my understanding, RES consume the infected snail during the parasite's first larval stage. If left undisturbed, the parasite will emerge from the snail as a free-swimming second stage larvae, where it will seek out a fish to act as a host. According to Cecil, the second stage larval form will only live for a short time after leaving the snail, so perhaps the reason we don't see as many infected RES has to do with their generally lower population density when compared to BG, and maybe their preferred habitat is slightly deeper, or at least puts them out of reach of many of the parasites?

Just guessing....


That sounds logical to me too. BUT, the RES eat snails, so they have to be near them then. I found a link to info about their life cycle and it has me wondering about a few things. I will see if I can post part of it here.

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#335292 - 05/18/13 08:00 AM Re: parasite question [Re: fish n chips]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
This excerpt taken from this link: http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/janfeb06/raw.html

_________________________________________________________

Life Cycle: 1 The adult fluke lives in the digestive tract of fish-eating birds, typically kingfishers or herons. It produces eggs, which pass from the bird in its droppings. The eggs hatch in water, liberating larvae called miracidia that swim around until they encounter a snail.

2 After digging their way into the snail, the miracidia form mother sporocysts. Mother sporocysts produce sporocysts that invade the snail's liver. In about six weeks, each sporocyst produces another form called a cercaria.

3 Cercariae emerge from the snail into the water. They seek out a fish and penetrate its flesh, forming cysts just under the skin and in the flesh.

4 If a bird eats infected fish, the parasites leave the cysts and mature in the digestive tract of the bird, starting the cycle again.

___________________________________________________________


So, the RES eat the snail while it contains sporocysts, which are not yet harmful to fish. The fish digest it, may release it back into the water, but can't go back into a snail because it is not a miracidia anymore, and can't go into a fish because it is not developed enough to form cercaria. That's what breaks the cycle.

Does this sound right?

Also, what happens if a bass eats an infected BG, do they get the black spots from it? Or is it passed on thru the system like if a bird ate the BG?


Edited by fish n chips (05/18/13 08:01 AM)

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#335486 - 05/20/13 08:57 AM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I'm hoping someone can help me with a question regarding the Clinostomum parasite. When I stocked HBG in march of 2009, I also put in 25 male BG, of a considerably larger size, that I transferred over from another pond. There were no visible signs of parasite infestation in the native BG, or the smaller HBG. During my limited ice fishing forays this winter, I caught 3 native BG that were absolutely covered with yellow grubs. I'm aware of the bird, snail, fish, lifecycle of Clinostomum, so I know how they got in the pond, and my fish, I just don't understand why only the BG were so infested? There's approx. 500 HBG, compared to 25 native BG in that pond. I've only caught 8 Hybrids total since the initial stocking that had any visible parasites. And even then there were just a couple grubs per fish. Nothing like the native BG, their fins, tails, and gills were full, worst cases I have ever seen. My question is this: When the cercaria leaves the snail to find a fish host, what determines a suitable candidate? Is it the first fish that comes along, or are there factors at work that may tend to make certain fish more susceptible?


Perhaps Green sunfish are less susceptible, so therefore the green sunfish in your hybrids makes them less susceptible?

From the literature I have read it's more likely the first fish the ceraria make contact with and they have a limited time to do so.
_________________________
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#335487 - 05/20/13 09:02 AM Re: parasite question [Re: fish n chips]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
How bad was the infestation? I eat fish like this all the time:



Yep it looked like that. Do your fish look that way all the time SP? I assume you have RES in your ponds to help control them.

I know I've come across them once in awhile, but this just totally threw me for a loop. When the knife hit one of those black spot just right, the worm would pop out. Couldn't clean the rest, knowing that even if I could handle it, the wife is a different story.


I will tell you from my experience as a taxidermist redears have larger scales for their body size vs. bluegills. Perhaps this is a protective mechanism that has evolved for the readear? Or there is something else about certain species that makes them less vulnerable?

Here are some links I provided in another thread.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10364_52259_10950-27376--,00.html

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_diseases/neascus.html

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/3395.htm


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (05/20/13 09:04 AM)
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If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#335507 - 05/20/13 11:27 AM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
MRHELLO Offline
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Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1840
Loc: N.E. OKLAHOMA
These are a little easier to consume than the yellow grubs in my opinion.

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#335520 - 05/20/13 01:15 PM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
benji havens Offline


Registered: 05/20/13
Posts: 33
Loc: northwest ohio hicksville ohio
i ate 20 bluegills that had them in it yesterday and they were yummy!! i was always told the black spots were because of to much iron in the water! the yellow ones r the ones not to eat! but u cant believe everything you hear.

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#335574 - 05/20/13 06:20 PM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
Here is a link to more than most will ever want to know about black spot disease. What I gained from it-- life cycle is ended of fish with black spot disease if anything eats it besides a bird.... so if LMB eats a BG with black spot, it's done.

http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1192&context=honors

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#335575 - 05/20/13 06:21 PM Re: parasite question [Re: sprkplug]
MRHELLO Offline
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Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1840
Loc: N.E. OKLAHOMA
They both are parasites and if cooked correctly will not hurt you. I agree it does not change the taste, it is more of the thought that may bother some more than others.

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#335579 - 05/20/13 06:28 PM Re: parasite question [Re: fish n chips]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
The one thing I still have not come across is if a fish has black spot disease, will it have it till the fish dies?

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#335582 - 05/20/13 06:38 PM Re: parasite question [Re: fish n chips]
JKB Offline
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Registered: 12/03/09
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Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
How bad was the infestation? I eat fish like this all the time:



Yep it looked like that. Do your fish look that way all the time SP? I assume you have RES in your ponds to help control them.

I know I've come across them once in awhile, but this just totally threw me for a loop. When the knife hit one of those black spot just right, the worm would pop out. Couldn't clean the rest, knowing that even if I could handle it, the wife is a different story.


A little extra pepper, with added protein laugh

Here's one for ya:

Traveling down the highway, I come to a toll booth, someplace in Indiana. The attendant asked for ID before you pay the toll and move on, OK.

She said, I see you wear glasses and it's within 45 day's of your birthday. Yeah? She said, I am going have to place you under arrest! What for?! She said we have to arrest everyone within 45 days of their birthday who wears glasses, then take them to the hospital for laser eye surgery. After a couple days when your all healed up, you can pay your toll and move on! crazy laugh

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#454697 - 08/23/16 01:03 PM Re: parasite question [Re: MRHELLO]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4920
Loc: SE Kansas
Reading this old thread made me wonder if there are different host species of fish for different variety of snails. For example maybe for a specific variety of snail GSF might be a suitable host but BG would not where a different variety of snail might have the reverse host needs. Perhaps that is why the BG had lots of the parasites with few on the hybrids. Perhaps the hybrids were not very good host candidates????

What made me think of this is host fish for mussels. Different variety of mussels have specific host fish. Here are a couple of links concerning mussels and their life cycles and one having information about specific fish hosts for specific mussels.

Mussels in Kansas If you click on a link to information on a specific mussel at the bottom of the description lists the suitable host fish

Life cycle of mussel Shows the parasitic life cycle

I have not done the research to see if specific varieties of snails only use specific fish for hosts like the mussels do.


Edited by snrub (08/23/16 01:26 PM)
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