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#452785 07/25/16 03:53 PM
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Is anyone using it yet and your thoughts? Interesting to see that it's 9mm. I ordered some today to experiment with. I have non feed trained SMB and RES that are feed trained on Optimal BG food. I plan to mix the Optimal Bass with the Optimal Bluegill and see what type of feeding response I get.

NEDOC #452788 07/25/16 04:07 PM
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I have some going to be here tomorrow. But Its just the free sample. Do you know if its the same or similar formula and just a different size or what?


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Looking at the tag online it is a different formula.


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NEDOC #452800 07/25/16 05:23 PM
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Is it a pellet or shaped like the BG feed?


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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NEDOC #452801 07/25/16 05:24 PM
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Different fish = different food. wink

Even different sized fish of the same species should get different food. Puppy chow vs. adult dog food, right? Same thing.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
NEDOC #452803 07/25/16 05:27 PM
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Mine will be in tomorrow and I'll post some pics of it compared to bluegill.


NEDOC #452809 07/25/16 05:48 PM
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I'm pretty sure some of my larger RES could eat a 9MM pellet if they wanted to.



NEDOC #452848 07/26/16 09:49 AM
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Bump to get esshup's input. Sounds like excellent stuff.


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NEDOC #452870 07/26/16 01:42 PM
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Here is the size difference on Optimal bass compared to Optimal bluegill. Just received the sample today. Put the feed labels on it also for comparison. In the pic, bluegill is on top bass is on bottom.

[img:left][/img]

[img:left][/img]

[img:left][/img]

Last edited by peachgrower; 07/26/16 01:43 PM.

NEDOC #452871 07/26/16 01:47 PM
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Is the top one considered floating? It isn't labeled as such. Also the address in the top one is Sioux Falls, bottom Brookings, SD did the factory move?

What else is the primary difference between bass and BG food? The protein is different, obviously size and shape, but do bass need different sources of protein? more grain?

NEDOC #452873 07/26/16 01:55 PM
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The top does float. That is out of my batch I got the other day. I do not know about the address thing. I got both of the tags on their website. Maybe it hasn't been updated or something. I'm sure someone will chime on the difference in whats needed. Just showing what I had so it could be seen.


NEDOC #452875 07/26/16 03:28 PM
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So animal protein is derived from....what? Chicken?


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
So animal protein is derived from....what? Chicken?


I'd have thought mostly fish, though there is chicken fat as well.

I have both CNBG and TP, but with Optimal the CNBG vastly outnumber tilapia at the feeders.

By the way, I got 4 big bags of BG feed and two free samples of the BG Jr feed in today. smile

Last edited by anthropic; 07/26/16 09:29 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




NEDOC #452892 07/26/16 09:18 PM
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i just got my samples in today. my goal is to grow large bluegill and it seems like the perfect size for them, but way too small for bass. i hand fell with it today and the fish loved it. i am sure my sweeney would handle that size feed well. it has a lot stronger smell than the bluegill feed. it puts me in mind of how aquamax used to smell and look. if the price was right, i think i would use it solely for my feed for bg and bass.


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NEDOC #452893 07/26/16 09:19 PM
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Mostly blood meal/bone meal - beef IIRC

Some chicken feathers peices parts and some fish meal .

Last edited by ewest; 07/26/16 09:19 PM.















ewest #452896 07/26/16 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: ewest
Mostly blood meal/bone meal - beef IIRC

Some chicken feathers peices parts and some fish meal .


You're talking about the LMB feed, right?


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




NEDOC #452900 07/27/16 12:12 AM
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Fed some mixed with my bluegill feed also. The little ones sure did not ignore it. Although I saw quite a few get pulled under just to pop back up. Then one would grab it and it wouldn't come back up. They were sure hitting it though. I think it would be great for big BG also. As already said, the smell is quite a bit stronger...but different. IMHO I still think the BG feed smells more like aquarium flakes...or thats what I think of when I smell it. lol.

Like ewest said...those are both legal to have in ruminant feed. I found a FDA list today...quite lengthy on the ins and outs of restricted animal protein products for ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, deer, etc, they have 4 stomach compartments)...if you read their tag it states that the feed is made a mill that does not produce or store animal protein products that are ruminant restricted...so it narrows down a bit on what could actually be used as the animal protein product.


NEDOC #452911 07/27/16 09:18 AM
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I got this from Clayton at Optimal.

"There were some questions about addresses on labels, Brookings is a production facility and Sioux Falls is a Corporate office location.
Same company same great feed.
Also the Optimal Bluegill is a floating feed. I will check why that is not on the current label.
Hope that helps.
Thanks Again
Clayton"


Thought I would share it with you guys since it was questioned.


NEDOC #452933 07/27/16 12:39 PM
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I just received Optimal Bass, Optimal BG and a sample of Optimal BG Jr. via FedEx this morning (22 hrs after ordering to Nebraska!!). I will get a chance to play with it Thursday evening. I will try to take pictures of it side by side by side. But let me know what other info you guys would like.

BTW, their customer service is unreal. Email response time is very quick.

Last edited by NEDOC; 07/27/16 12:40 PM.

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NEDOC #452945 07/27/16 02:00 PM
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NEDOC, that's good to hear.


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Originally Posted By: anthropic
Originally Posted By: ewest
Mostly blood meal/bone meal - beef IIRC

Some chicken feathers peices parts and some fish meal .


You're talking about the LMB feed, right?


All of them used in ponds that I have seen.
















NEDOC #452957 07/27/16 03:35 PM
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+1 on what NEDOC said.

For example, my shipment had a problem and was going to be couple days late. I got a call from them about the situation, plus got an extra 5# bass feed sample. I didn't have to call them to ask about the shipment or call and email 10 times. They called me to tell me of the error. Then checked in to make sure all was well. That says a lot about customer service. There aren't many that check "after the sale" on a customer.

I'm not trying to no one else does the same thing...I'm just saying that the optimal crew was top notch!


NEDOC #453020 07/28/16 12:53 PM
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FWIW - I'm not implying protein derived from sources other than fish is a bad thing - I'm certainly no expert and fish nutrition is a very complex science the industry is just beginning to understand it seems. So far seems results from Optimal BG feed has been positive - just curious on the protein source for the carnivore feed.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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NEDOC #453039 07/28/16 09:12 PM
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Look at this . Mark Griffin is the top fish nutritionist PhD with no ax to grind - no longer with Purina .


Also a big source , that is not as good as fish meal , is plant based proteins like soybean products. There is a lot here on fish food in prior threads.

Here is some info from Mark Griffin , PhD, previously with Purina.

Dog food is designed for dogs - you are much better off going with fish food designed for the fish you are feeding.

Feather meal as a fish food protein source. There are two primary factors of protein quality for monogastrics (fish for this discussion) - 1) Amino Acid profile and 2) Amino Acid availability. The amino acid profile of feather looks pretty good if you look at the Total Sulfur Amino Acid content. It has a high content of cystine - a sulfur amino acid (SAA). SAAs can be limiting in monogastric diets and tend to be expensive to formulate into diets (they are relatively low in many inexpensive plant proteins). Unfortunately, the reason it is so high is because feather is a structural protein. The di-sulfide bonds between two cysteines make the protein very tough. This is what gives the keratins their structural rigidity - like our hair and fingernails. Unfortunately, this serves to make them very hard to digest. Therefore, as a rule, the availability is not so good. To increase the availability, feather meal is often hydrolyzed, this is an attempot to break down the disulfide bonds to increase availability. Shoe leather analyzes at 85% crude protein, but it is not digestible.

A word on protein sources.... Most protein sources are available in different qualities. This is particularly true for the expensive animal proteins - fish meal, poultry meals, blood meals, etc. Quality and freshness of the raw materials and the processing are factors that result in this variability. As examples:
A) Quality of Raw Materials: Meat meals are often priced on protein content - simply put, it is the ratio of bone (ash) to meat (protein). Bones (minerals, ash) are not as valuable as protein.
B) Freshness of Raw Materials: The US commercial fishing fleet for menhaden now has all refrigerated vessel storage.... the season is in over the summer, primarily in the Gulf of Mexico. Obviously, if it is not refrigerated....
c) Processing: Blood has a good amino acid profile. If it is drum-dried (essentially scorched on a extremely hot steel drum) it has poor availability and is a fairly poor ingredient. If it has been spray dried under low heat - it is an excellent ingredient.

High quality fish meal is the gold standard - it has the best Amino acid profile for fish (fish protein to grow fish protein)and is highly digestible. Further, it tastes great to fish (fish meal based diets are much more palatable to carnivorous fish) and it contains about 10% fish oil (high in omega 3 polyunsaturated fatty acids). Many other proteins can be used as long as they are formulated properly into an overall dietary amino acid profile.


Just depends on what warm water fish you are feeding and what results you desire. For instance, when grown at 80 F, fingerling Hybrid Striped Bass growth varied significantly, depending on both type and content of dietary protein and content of fat. Catfish formulations are plant based, while good trout/salmon formulations are animal based (preferably fish based). Strictly carnivorous fish do not do as well on plant-protein based diets. Below, diets are described in terms of Protein/fat, so a 40/10 is 40% protein and 10% fat (the OLD reliable trout diet).

36/8 (plant based)... 280% Weight Gain X
42/4 (plant based)....347% " 1.24X
35/10 (fish based)....432% " 1.54X
44/8 (fish based)....487% " 1.74X
55/15 (fish based)....650% " 2.32X**

It is important to note that all of these diets were high quality, they were just designed for different purposes and vary greatly in cost. For instance the 36/8 is designed for channel catfish fingerlings and the 55/15 is designed for Atlantic Salmon fingerlings. The 55/15 may cost 4 times as much as the plant based 36, so the economics are certainly arguable... just depends.

**Additionally, the ultra high growth on the 55/15 should be taken with a grain of salt as it resulted in obese fish (HSB very efficiently lay down dietary fat in their abdominal cavity), indeed the whole-body fat of HSB fed the 55/15 was 62% greater than that of the fish fed the 42/4.



Well, today I see that Yahoo has a story on the importance of omega 3 fatty acids for us humans. For most of us, the source is fish - salmon, tuna, sardines, etc. I have not seen the data - but, for winter survival, the idea is that fish oil is a fluid. This enhance membrane fluidity. This is often cited as a reason for the role of PUFAs with brain function/development. When the water gets cold, the fish get cold. Therefore, it stands to reason that these fats benefit the animals in cold conditions. If the overall fatty acid profile has too much saturated fat, their fat reserves will solidify in cold water - like tallow in cold water. These PUFAs are important in many other aspects besides the physical properties....

Predatory fish get these fats from the smaller fish they consume. They do not synthesize the long chain PUFAs. The source is from algae and these fats are passed on to algae-eating zooplankton and fish and move up the food chain. Menhaden are excellent sources of the omega 3 PUFAs, because they are fatty fish and about 25% of their fatty acids are the long chain PUFAs. So, in a prepared diet, you need either a significant amount of certain marine algaes, or fish oil or meal (approximately 10% of fish meal is fish oil - as a side note... this is because fish meal is mechanically expressed, so it does not get all the fat out. In solvent-extracted meals - such as soybean meal - there is vurtually no fat left).

From

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=117723&page=1

and

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=29710&page=1
















NEDOC #453044 07/28/16 11:55 PM
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Thanks Eric


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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