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"people keep doing studies like trying to get a fish to spit on a screen."

Don't know about fish, but I've learned to spit on a screen when certain politicians appear on it...

Last edited by anthropic; 07/22/16 06:53 PM.

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"That is why I ask ? rational thought/reasoning/abstract thought."

An interesting take on the question by brain surgeon Michael Egnor:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/11/the_fundamental_2100661.html

It is important to understand the fundamental difference between humans and nonhuman animals. Nonhuman animals such as apes have material mental powers. By material I mean powers that are instantiated in the brain and wholly depend upon matter for their operation. These powers include sensation, perception, imagination (the ability to form mental images), memory (of perceptions and images), and appetite.

Nonhuman animals have a mental capacity to perceive and respond to particulars, which are specific material objects such as other animals, food, obstacles, and predators.

Human beings have mental powers that include the material mental powers of animals but in addition entail a profoundly different kind of thinking. Human beings think abstractly, and nonhuman animals do not. Human beings have the power to contemplate universals, which are concepts that have no material instantiation. Human beings think about mathematics, literature, art, language, justice, mercy, and an endless library of abstract concepts. Human beings are rational animals.

Human rationality is not merely a highly evolved kind of animal perception. Human rationality is qualitatively different -- ontologically different -- from animal perception. Human rationality is different because it is immaterial. Contemplation of universals cannot have material instantiation, because universals themselves are not material and cannot be instantiated in matter.

I stress here the difference between representation and instantiation. Representation is the map of a thing. Instantiation is the thing itself. Universals can be represented in matter -- the words I am writing in this post are representations of concepts -- but universals cannot be instantiated in matter. I cannot put the concepts themselves on a computer screen or on a piece of paper, nor can the concepts exist physically in my brain. Concepts, which are universals, are immaterial.

Nonhuman animals are purely material beings. They have no concepts. They experience hunger and pain. They don't contemplate the injustice of suffering.

A human being is material and immaterial -- a composite being.

Last edited by anthropic; 07/22/16 07:10 PM.

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I've learned a lot from my dogs, then my cats, then my goats, and then my chickens. And they aren't that different from wild animals. Someone recently wrote that our dogs may have taught us to behave better towards other humans. The canines are social animals and get along well in groups and are devoted to their young. They are also our loyal and unwavering friends, provided they're treated halfways fairly. Maybe we've learned more from them than they've learned from us.

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I don't for a moment believe a bluegill ponders its place in the universe, any more than it might calculate the volume of water that surrounds it. It's just that for me, the debate between conditioning and learning is immaterial. I consider them to be two sides of the same coin. If an animal/fish can be conditioned, then in other words it has been taught. And if it can be taught, does that not imply some measure of intelligence?


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If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
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Can someone explain how "pattern fishing" occurs on large bodies of water and why? More specifically on lmb.Is it just a seasonal thing all about the food source that time of year? Why can patterns change in just a day or two? What is actually going on?


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Are you referring to factors such as:
Time of day
Barometric pressure
Direction of wind
Sunny or overcast
fishing pressure
etc....

Or possibly:
Their mood that day, or face recognition? grin


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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I don't for a moment believe a bluegill ponders its place in the universe,


And a good thing, too. If bluegill did, I think it would be wrong to catch, kill, and eat them. eek


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I am referring to Example: Catching fish on rattle traps over the grass in 8 ft water. Maybe catch them like that all up and down a 40 mile long lake. The next day not a fish to be found in those areas!! Why all 40 miles of the lake at the same time?? Next day, might catch them on jigs in the bushes in 5 foot water but doing so all up and down the 40 mile stretch?? What causes so many fish to act the same way at the same time??


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Since we are talking about behaviors and such, let me throw this one in. I have never seen it before. The fish we are talking about are the 200 BG and 50 RES I stocked two weeks yesterday. I have been feeding them daily..not in one spot yet...probably 10 or so pellets (hydrated 3 to 1 purina catfish 32) since then. In the past few days they have finally been taking it...well hitting it and knocking pieces off I assume. Last night late (around 10) my two daughters and I drove up to get the mail, and as we were driving back I thought we would drive down and shine the light bar in the water just to look for snakes/frogs/etc. As we approached, I told the girls, Hey! look at all the frogs hopping in and out of the water...after a few seconds I realized those aren't frogs...those were my BG and RES! They were hopping in and out of the water...even had to go down and put 3 back in the water. They would jump out a foot or two out of the water and back in. After all the fuss was over they quit. Then as we went around the pond the same thing happened....just on a smaller scale. Where we were was were my shelter is and I do the majority of my feeding. When we went back about 20 minutes later they didn't do it on near the scale..maybe 10 or so...but the first had to be 100 or so. It was unreal! I wonder what crosses their mind when the light comes over them in really shallow water like that??..I guess it simply spooked them. None the less I was able to get my hands on a couple. They had good color and a nice little belly. Wish I would've gotten a pic.

I think not only the learned/conditioned behaviors but you have to account alot for hormones also. Animals are not like us in the way that we can choose certain things and what we will do on a daily basis. Hormones control alot of their actions. Like standing heat in a cow/horse/dog...whatever. No choice, their body locks up. Hormones or lack there of will make all kinds of odd actions happen.


I think most are God given instincts that we will not ever fully understand, but its great conversation!

Last edited by peachgrower; 07/23/16 12:30 PM.

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"Human beings are rational animals."

That one made me chuckle. laugh

Just do a search on youtube for something like "redneck fails" or look at how people spend their time or money. Kind of brings that statement into serious question. laugh

Maybe something along the lines of "Human beings have the capability of sometimes (or maybe occasionally) being rational animals" would be a more correct statement.

Last edited by snrub; 07/23/16 02:36 PM.

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Originally Posted By: snrub
"Human beings are rational animals."

That one made me chuckle. laugh

Just do a search on youtube for something like "redneck fails" or look at how people spend their time or money. Kind of brings that statement into serious question. laugh

Maybe something along the lines of "Human beings have the capability of sometimes (or maybe occasionally) being rational animals" would be a more correct statement.


Maybe a better description is "Human beings are rational-izing animals." whistle


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This thread has really taken off !!! So many solid concepts and observations. I can guess at some but they are guesses.

Hormones are chemicals the body makes to respond when the brain says so. Chemicals used in the brain are very powerful stuff and in most cases will overpower "will or thought". I think some people, based on their behavior, have way more of them than any animals.

If I knew how to scientifically pattern fish as mentioned I would get rich selling that system to fisherman !! That is what fishermen have been trying to figure out since the beginning of time !!!

anthropic very good stuff. I think many people believe lots of animals are sentient beings (the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively) and won't eat them (vegans). I wonder what happens to them if they decide that plants are also sentient. Great info on human vs animal brains . I wonder sometimes where the line between human and animal begins. A very few humans (no names here) are a tragic waste and with malice were responsible for the murder of millions of their own kind. No animal has ever done that to its own kind - I wonder which is more advanced. Humans have the ability to do great and marvelous things but also to unleash great evil. When we get to talking about animal vs human and good vs evil we are delving into religion and philosophy. That is above my pay grade nor do I have those answers. A very smart man (scientist) once told me upon discussing the origin of earth , life and humans (evolution and creation)that all things fit together perfectly even though man does not fully understand and while we have a long way to go we became different when we were given a soul. I do hear you about politicians.

RAH the psychological condition is far to complex for me to address. I often find , upon reflection, wondering what I am doing and why.
















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Originally Posted By: peachgrower
Since we are talking about behaviors and such, let me throw this one in. I have never seen it before. The fish we are talking about are the 200 BG and 50 RES I stocked two weeks yesterday. I have been feeding them daily..not in one spot yet...probably 10 or so pellets (hydrated 3 to 1 purina catfish 32) since then. In the past few days they have finally been taking it...well hitting it and knocking pieces off I assume. Last night late (around 10) my two daughters and I drove up to get the mail, and as we were driving back I thought we would drive down and shine the light bar in the water just to look for snakes/frogs/etc. As we approached, I told the girls, Hey! look at all the frogs hopping in and out of the water...after a few seconds I realized those aren't frogs...those were my BG and RES! They were hopping in and out of the water...even had to go down and put 3 back in the water. They would jump out a foot or two out of the water and back in. After all the fuss was over they quit. Then as we went around the pond the same thing happened....just on a smaller scale. Where we were was were my shelter is and I do the majority of my feeding. When we went back about 20 minutes later they didn't do it on near the scale..maybe 10 or so...but the first had to be 100 or so. It was unreal! I wonder what crosses their mind when the light comes over them in really shallow water like that??..I guess it simply spooked them. None the less I was able to get my hands on a couple. They had good color and a nice little belly. Wish I would've gotten a pic.

I think not only the learned/conditioned behaviors but you have to account alot for hormones also. Animals are not like us in the way that we can choose certain things and what we will do on a daily basis. Hormones control alot of their actions. Like standing heat in a cow/horse/dog...whatever. No choice, their body locks up. Hormones or lack there of will make all kinds of odd actions happen.


I think most are God given instincts that we will not ever fully understand, but its great conversation!


Never heard of that before. I have seen a big BG come completely out of the water to dive bomb a small topwater lure, but not what you describe. Probably a startle reflex, similar to how an armadillo reacts by jumping several feet straight up.

A week ago, my wife and I actually saw a BG swim halfway up on shore to grab a piece of feed. Yep, the head was completely on land! Reminded me of how orcas will sometimes swim up onto the beach to grab a seal...

Last edited by anthropic; 07/23/16 03:31 PM.

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Originally Posted By: anthropic
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I don't for a moment believe a bluegill ponders its place in the universe,


And a good thing, too. If bluegill did, I think it would be wrong to catch, kill, and eat them. eek


Could this be one of those ramifications I spoke of earlier? If we break down and admit that fish have the capacity to learn vs. sticking with conditioning, how does that impact our treatment of them? Or would it? Should it?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: ewest


anthropic very good stuff. I think many people believe lots of animals are sentient beings (the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively) and won't eat them (vegans). I wonder what happens to them if they decide that plants are also sentient.


Should've read further before I posted above. This is exactly what I'm referring too.

Is there a carefully but artificially constructed division between learning and conditioning??

Ewest, I agree on the thread taking off. Reminds me of the PondBoss of old.

Last edited by sprkplug; 07/23/16 03:28 PM.

"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Originally Posted By: ewest


anthropic very good stuff. I think many people believe lots of animals are sentient beings (the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively) and won't eat them (vegans). I wonder what happens to them if they decide that plants are also sentient.


Should've read further before I posted above. This is exactly what I'm referring too.

Is there a carefully but artificially constructed division between learning and conditioning??

Ewest, I agree on the thread taking off. Reminds me of the PondBoss of old.


Maybe this thread should be designated a "Shooter."


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Originally Posted By: ewest
This thread has really taken off !!! So many solid concepts and observations. I can guess at some but they are guesses.

Hormones are chemicals the body makes to respond when the brain says so. Chemicals used in the brain are very powerful stuff and in most cases will overpower "will or thought". I think some people, based on their behavior, have way more of them than any animals.

If I knew how to scientifically pattern fish as mentioned I would get rich selling that system to fisherman !! That is what fishermen have been trying to figure out since the beginning of time !!!

anthropic very good stuff. I think many people believe lots of animals are sentient beings (the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively) and won't eat them (vegans). I wonder what happens to them if they decide that plants are also sentient. Great info on human vs animal brains . I wonder sometimes where the line between human and animal begins. A very few humans (no names here) are a tragic waste and with malice were responsible for the murder of millions of their own kind. No animal has ever done that to its own kind - I wonder which is more advanced. Humans have the ability to do great and marvelous things but also to unleash great evil. When we get to talking about animal vs human and good vs evil we are delving into religion and philosophy. That is above my pay grade nor do I have those answers. A very smart man (scientist) once told me upon discussing the origin of earth , life and humans (evolution and creation)that all things fit together perfectly even though man does not fully understand and while we have a long way to go we became different when we were given a soul. I do hear you about politicians.

RAH the psychological condition is far to complex for me to address. I often find , upon reflection, wondering what I am doing and why.


Good post. One of the burdens of humanity is that we are moral beings, knowing good & evil (that may sound familiar from vacation bible school!). Animals can kill, but they cannot murder, as they are amoral.

On another topic, Dr. Egnor notes that brain surgeons have noticed that when they touch or stimulate brain tissue, they often get a response involving a memory, emotion, or a particular item. What they never get is a response involving abstractions, such as a comment on mathematics, philosophy, justice, or the like. The purely material brain, without consciousness, seems unconcerned with immaterial abstractions.

This is another reason why Egnor distinguishes between the material and immaterial minds.


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Originally Posted By: anthropic
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Originally Posted By: ewest


anthropic very good stuff. I think many people believe lots of animals are sentient beings (the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively) and won't eat them (vegans). I wonder what happens to them if they decide that plants are also sentient.


Should've read further before I posted above. This is exactly what I'm referring too.

Is there a carefully but artificially constructed division between learning and conditioning??

Ewest, I agree on the thread taking off. Reminds me of the PondBoss of old.


Maybe this thread should be designated a "Shooter."


Unfortunately, it will probably veer off into verboten territory soon enough. I sense theology waiting in the wings, impatiently awaiting its debut. Then we'll have to fall back to the "regulars".... grin wink Groan.

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"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
...Ewest, I agree on the thread taking off. Reminds me of the PondBoss of old.


Tony, I couldn't agree with you more. The lack of testosterone makes conjuring fun again.


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When crows pick things up and carry them into the air to drop them onto pavement and crack them open to get at the food inside, is that conditioning or learning? Is there a reason why we have both words?

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Maybe the way to consider the subject is conditioning (or call it learning) whichever vs thinking. Or possibly reaction vs thought. We don't know how a fish brain works and often miss on how a human brain thinks . Thought vs conditioned learning - one is prospective the other is reactive .
















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I agree with ewest's analysis. However I will throw this out there, just because it lingers on my mind.

What if the use of "conditioning" vs. "learning" is to dehumanize the subject? To remove any notion of intelligence? The reluctance to eat a thinking bluegill has already been mentioned above...what would happen were we to discover (admit?) that fish learned and could be taught?

How many have conditioned their dog to shake hands or roll over? Probably not, but we might've taught him or her to do these things. The use of the word taught implies to me, intelligence. Dogs are companions, loved members of our families, and in most cases at least, not on the dinner menu. Fish on the other hand, do not enjoy this luxury.

How would our perceptions, AND those of several infrastructures dedicated to fish and ponds, change? Maybe I'm chasing a sasquatch in the shadows, or maybe there's something to chasing the money...I just don't know.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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There's a book out about fish intelligence that you may find worthwhile: What a Fish Knows.

From Amazon:

Do fishes think? Do they really have three-second memories? And can they recognize the humans who peer back at them from above the surface of the water? In What a Fish Knows, the myth-busting ethologist Jonathan Balcombe addresses these questions and more, taking us under the sea, through streams and estuaries, and to the other side of the aquarium glass to reveal the surprising capabilities of fishes.

Although there are more than thirty thousand species of fish, more than all mammals, birds, reptiles, and amphibians combined, we rarely consider how individual fishes think, feel, and behave. Balcombe upends our assumptions about fishes, portraying them not as unfeeling, dead-eyed feeding machines but as sentient, aware, social, and even Machiavellian. In other words, much like us.

What a Fish Knows draws on the latest science to present a fresh look at these remarkable creatures in all their breathtaking diversity and beauty. Fishes conduct elaborate courtship rituals and develop lifelong bonds with shoalmates. They also plan, hunt cooperatively, use tools, curry favor, deceive one another, and punish wrongdoers.

We may imagine that fishes lead simple, fleeting lives;a mode of existence that boils down to a place on the food chain, rote spawning, and lots of aimless swimming. But, as Balcombe demonstrates, the truth is far richer and more complex, worthy of the grandest social novel.

Last edited by anthropic; 07/23/16 11:45 PM.

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I agree with ewest's analysis. However I will throw this out there, just because it lingers on my mind.

What if the use of "conditioning" vs. "learning" is to dehumanize the subject? To remove any notion of intelligence? The reluctance to eat a thinking bluegill has already been mentioned above...what would happen were we to discover (admit?) that fish learned and could be taught?

How many have conditioned their dog to shake hands or roll over? Probably not, but we might've taught him or her to do these things. The use of the word taught implies to me, intelligence. Dogs are companions, loved members of our families, and in most cases at least, not on the dinner menu. Fish on the other hand, do not enjoy this luxury.

How would our perceptions, AND those of several infrastructures dedicated to fish and ponds, change? Maybe I'm chasing a sasquatch in the shadows, or maybe there's something to chasing the money...I just don't know.


Is there not a lot of wildlife that could be thrown into that equation as well? Consider the "conditioning" or "learning" that goes on in zoo's.

What if it were to be tried/tested/experimented on:
Deer
Elk
Pheasant
Turkey (or not, they're pretty dang dumb)
Hogs
Cows
Al's chickens smile
etc.,,,,,

I can already see the forming of special interest groups demanding the end of consuming these "intelligent" animals!

Last edited by Lovnlivin; 07/23/16 09:28 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Lovnlivin
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I agree with ewest's analysis. However I will throw this out there, just because it lingers on my mind.

What if the use of "conditioning" vs. "learning" is to dehumanize the subject? To remove any notion of intelligence? The reluctance to eat a thinking bluegill has already been mentioned above...what would happen were we to discover (admit?) that fish learned and could be taught?

How many have conditioned their dog to shake hands or roll over? Probably not, but we might've taught him or her to do these things. The use of the word taught implies to me, intelligence. Dogs are companions, loved members of our families, and in most cases at least, not on the dinner menu. Fish on the other hand, do not enjoy this luxury.

How would our perceptions, AND those of several infrastructures dedicated to fish and ponds, change? Maybe I'm chasing a sasquatch in the shadows, or maybe there's something to chasing the money...I just don't know.


Is there not a lot of wildlife that could be thrown into that equation as well? Consider the "conditioning" or "learning" that goes on in zoo's.

What if it were to be tried/tested/experimented on:
Deer
Elk
Pheasant
Turkey (or not, they're pretty dang dumb)
Hogs
Cows
Al's chickens smile
etc.,,,,,

I can already see the forming of special interest groups demanding the end of consuming these "intelligent" animals!


If you think that's bad, wait until we discuss PLANT intelligence! shocked

Last edited by anthropic; 07/23/16 09:33 PM.

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