Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,075
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,412
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
16 members (DrLuke, JasonInOhio, H20fwler, Theo Gallus, Shorthose, Requa, Justin W, LeighAnn, Bob Lusk, catscratch, Freg, DenaTroyer, Blestfarmpond, Snipe, RAH, Rick O), 820 guests, and 205 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#451214 07/05/16 10:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
I have been following callahans "Ag lie and PH?..." thread, and have read all the resources on it.

Here are my questions. Before I got on here and started researching I ordered some fish to stock. Not a huge number...but did order. We have a fairly new pond...recently...well finally filled...has dropped but stabilized. No woods around...pasture (recently turned hay meadows)...used to be peach trees. I have not tested water through a service...only used aquarium and pool tests. PH is a little high...around 8.4-8.6....nitrates well below danger...I would assume by the reading it would be zero. The issue is alkalinity. I know I need lime. Its around 20 or a little below. Although I see little to no fluctuation in PH from morning to late evening. Not below 8 in morning. We have some vegetation, not alot. Only in the shallow end. Yes I know...shouldn't have a shallow end...but just found site.. mad lol. I can't stop fish from coming at this point. I know I have some "bucket" fish that my kids have put in. Some have been caught and are healthy. Pretty clear water...we have many gravel pits around here. We are on a hill so we get alot of wind...water never sits except in evening.

Now to the question...I have sourced calcium carbonate lime. They are pretty short because the quarry has been so wet since the spring. Will I harm the new fish if I lime before...they come friday...or soon after...next week? I was thinking a couple tons. My pond is probably 3/4 to one acre...although not near full right now. Probably 7-8 avg depth. I was thinking one ton on water shed then one in water. Can you put too much calcium carbonate out? I know in SW AR you lime just about everything. I haven't gotten a chance to send off soil or water tests. Would it hurt to go ahead and lime? Any information would be appreciated! I can probably get a google earth image if that would help...although it was taken when it had very little water in it...nearly three years old.

Thanks!!

Scott


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
How do you know the alkalinity is low.

"no fluctuation in PH from morning to late evening"

and

"PH is a little high...around 8.4-8.6"

are not indicative of low alkalinity.


The optimum alkalinity for growing fish is that which makes the water pH match the fish's blood pH.

Adding lime depends on your soil and water and to a smaller degree the type of fish. Good alkalinity (not based on 20ppm min for fertilizing) is the key to controlling large daily pH swings which stress fish. The buffering ability of alkalinity greatly reduces the large pH swings irrespective of fertilization.

From SARC on water auality.











A desirable range of total alkalinity for fish culture is between 75 and 200 mg/L CaCO3.

Pond pH varies throughout the day due to respiration and photosynthesis. After sunset, dissolved oxygen (DO) concentrations decline as photosynthesis stops and
all plants and animals in the pond consume oxygen (respiration). In heavily stocked fish ponds, carbon dioxide (CO2) concentrations can become high as a result of
respiration. The free CO2 released during respiration reacts with water, producing carbonic acid (H2CO3), and pH is lowered. H2O + CO2 = H2CO3 = H+ + HCO3.

Carbon dioxide rarely causes direct toxicity to fish. However, high concentrations lower pond pH and limit the capacity of fish blood to carry oxygen by lowering blood pH at the gills. At a given dissolved oxygen concentration e.g., 2 mg/L, milligrams per liter; same as parts per million, ppm), fish may suffocate when CO2 levels are high and appear unaffected when CO2 is low.

In water with moderate to high alkalinity (good buffering capacity) and similar hardness levels, pH is neutral or slightly basic (7.0 to 8.3) and does not fluctuate widely.

Higher amounts of CO2 (i.e., carbonic acid) or other acids are required to lower pH because there is more base available to neutralize or buffer the acid.



Last edited by ewest; 07/05/16 12:42 PM.















Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
ewest; thanks for that! I know the total alkalinity because that is one of the pads on the test strips I have. I know not a lab test...but just has me a bit worried. The color was slightly lighter than the 20 mg. The higher the total alkalinity the darker the color on this strip. pH was in the upper levels. I checked pH late one evening, then checked at 7:30 the next morning and there wasn't much change in pH...maybe down to the lower 8.0-8.2 range. Now that was with the strips and a pool dye test for pH. The pool test did not include the alkalinity.

From reading and what you posted I'm assuming if I'm not seeing much swing in pH from evening to morning do I have a decent total alkalinity? I'm sure thats a big assumption...but seems logical. I just know I can't get a soil test or water test very quickly...and fish are coming friday. Kind of in a pickle. Everything on the test strip looks to be ideal except total alkalinity.

Thanks again!! I hope I'm making sense in my description and questions. I'm new at this. Wish now I would've paid more attention to these classes in college!


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Are they bringing the fish to the pond ? If so ask them to test the water before stocking as you think you may have an alkalinity problem. You can , if needed , put ag lime in a few days after the fish go in. However ag lime will not dissolve if pH is above 8.3. From SARC link "However, at a pH of 8.3 or greater, agricultural limestone will
not dissolve".

Last edited by ewest; 07/05/16 01:06 PM.















Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
What are other options to ag lime if I have a high pH? No I have to pick them up.

Is it possible that the aquarium test strips are not correct?? Should I monitor pH multiple times a day and through the night to check for pH swing?

Also if it helps...I'm getting 50 LMB, 200 BG, 50 RES, 10# FHM.

Last edited by peachgrower; 07/05/16 01:17 PM.

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
One POSSIBLE explanation for little change in pH is the pond being fairly new, with little decay or plant respiration of CO2 causing acid formations that would normally lower morning pH readings in the absence of alkalinity and calcium/magnesium acid buffers..

I am a bit perplexed that pH is over 8 and the statement of "I know in SW AR you lime just about everything". If there are gravel pits in the area, are the dolomitic limestone?



Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
You can often take in a water sample to a swimming pool supplier and get a free, accurate assay of alkalinity, calcium and pH. tell them it is for a pond, not a swimming pool or hot tub....



Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
When I say lime everything...whenever you send in soil samples you nearly always have to add lime in this area...for hay, forage, etc.

We also have alot of pine...which by nature makes soil acidic. Pine plantations and natural. Many of which had been cleared at some point to make pasture.

The area I live in there is alot of gravel. In fact I know of 5 or so pits within 10 miles of my house.


Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
The pond isnt new per say...but is newly filled. It has had water for two years...but just this spring has filled and stabilized.


Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
peachgrower, I'd suggest getting a complete soil survey and water analysis, but to answer your original question, as long as the new fish are acclimated and tempered correctly, they should do fine till you know more on what, if any amendments like Ag Lime are needed to improve water quality.



Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
Okay, here is another quick question. When I receive the fish. I have seen and read where people take the bag, open the top, set the fish in the water and allow 15 or so minutes to allow the water temps to equalize. The place I'm getting the fish told me not to do that. They said take small cups of pond water and add water a little bit at a time until the temps come close to one another. They said should only take a few minutes (5 or so). That seems awfully fast to me. I like the bag in the water idea, but I wanted to ask the experts.

On the other note, I will get soil and water samples to extension asap. Hopefully they aren't backed up like they are in the spring.

Thanks!


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
I agree with Rainman on the stocking. Where are you getting the fish from ? Are they in O2 bags ?
















Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
Arkansas Pond Stockers. They come to the local coops in a fish truck. Yes they are supposed to be in Bags with oxygen.

I'll get my wife to snap some pics of the pond when I get home from work so you can see what the water looks like and the veg around and in it. The kids and I are probably going to sink some pallets today for the FHM. Maybe sink some truck tires if we have time. I have a BOUNTIFUL supply. lol Being a truck mechanic we tend to have a bunch. Will drill 2" holes in them from what I've read they should sink and stay put.

Last edited by peachgrower; 07/05/16 03:27 PM.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Be sure you get what you ordered ! Be sure they are not hybrid bluegill . You need more BG than 200 with 50 LMB. 500 BG and 30 LMB would be better.

Be sure the bags are inflated with an oxygen bottle and not a plain compressor. If they have pure oxygen in the bag then do the floating bag method. If not oxygen then use the other method but be sure not to increase the water temps to fast.

Last edited by ewest; 07/05/16 04:15 PM.















Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
Will do! Will make sure. I'm getting more BG. I'm going to probably get closer to 1000 by fall. Then maybe some more in the next spring. Funds weren't there to get the extra I had planned to initially. There is a place I found in Laural Mississippi that can ship them to me. They have really good prices! How can I tell between the BG and HBG? I guess I've never really paid attention to them before now. I have read alot on here about the HBG not reproducing well.


Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
Also found out today that our extension service doesn't send pond water from here. Who do you guys send yours to? Or do you test yourself? My main thing is getting a baseline. If I had a baseline I would know if my little test strips were working or at least if they are close or not.

Thanks again guys! My wife is going to take some pics of the pond when I get home. Maybe ID the vegetation growing around it.


Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
To clarify and add to what ewest said....if the fish are bagged in pure oygen, leave the bag sealed while floating in the pond for 15 minutes...then open the bag, change or add 1?4 the bag's water volume with pond water, wait 10 minutes, then change half the bag water with pond water, wait another 10 minutes....

If bagged in regular air, open and put the bag in a 5 gallon bucket to allow air to enter the bage freely....let sit in the pond 20-25 minutes to get temps close, and if any signs of stress or piping is seen in the fish....agitate the water in the bag....then change out water as described earlier before releasing into the pond.



Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
Thanks! They said oxygen will be added. But I'll be sure to check.

I've found some pics online that show the difference in the BG and HBG.

Do you have any tips for checking them out? They are supposed to be 2-4" fish.


Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
No tips really...Just look at the differences in the pictures you find. A 2" fish can often be hard to identify positively, but a 4" should be pretty clear to tell species.



Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
I have an update. Might shed some light on the results from the previous tests. Checked my pH today and it was 6.8. That makes sense now. We have had two rains late at night since the previous two pH readings. We haven't had a rain a couple weeks so the pH had settled at around 8.4-8.6. Now bring on the rain, which from what I've read here will lower pH due to the acidity of the rain. So I'm assuming the low alkalinity on my test strip was correct. Now I've had a huge pH swing.

Did I understand it correctly in explaining what I've found? Looks like I need to lime in a bad way.

I'm going to check it in the morning before going to work again to verify, but I checked it twice this afternoon...walked out into the pond in two different places and got the same results. I'm kind of scared to know how low it might be by morning.


Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,058
Likes: 7
D
Offline
D
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,058
Likes: 7
In calcite lime stone or calcium carbonate you naturally have an abundance of sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate. All three have a buffer capacity. They will raise alkalinity and stabilize your PH.

I do expect you will not have any problem with adding the calcium carbonate to the water after the fish are in the pond. Rain will have a very big effect on the water.

Big thing they will say to look for is the CCE % but that is just a chemical rating and not the true content of the product. It will give you the rating equivalent of pure calcium carbonate NOT the % of calcium carbonate.

Dolomite lime is very easy to get a high CCE % but that is because of the magnesium in the product. Yes for fish production magnesium is needed but not in the volume ag lime can provide. Mag is still a micro nutrient.


[Linked Image from corvettejunkie.com]
http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4


7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
Here are some pics of the pond my wife took yesterday.








Last edited by peachgrower; 07/06/16 10:50 AM.

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 425
I was wondering about what that plant is. It grows well around the upper end of the pond. I think it was brought in by my kids bringing bucket fish. Doesn't really grow much in the water...a little, but not to deep...mostly on the bank.

You can also see that it has dropped down but it is pretty well stabilized where it is.

Will the fish still be okay with those fluctuations until I get soil samples back? Or should I go ahead with a couple tons of lime? I was thinking 1 or so in the water, and then at least 1 or two all up the watershed.

Thanks guys!!

One of my girls was watching us sink some pallets for the FHM we are getting friday. Notice she has a buzz bait...nothing in the pond to catch with it...but she was ready just in case! lol

Notice the beds...I do not know what they are. I'm sure some of the bucket fish from last year.


Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
Originally Posted By: DonoBBD
In calcite lime stone or calcium carbonate you naturally have an abundance of sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate. All three have a buffer capacity. They will raise alkalinity and stabilize your PH.

I do expect you will not have any problem with adding the calcium carbonate to the water after the fish are in the pond. Rain will have a very big effect on the water.

Big thing they will say to look for is the CCE % but that is just a chemical rating and not the true content of the product. It will give you the rating equivalent of pure calcium carbonate NOT the % of calcium carbonate.

Dolomite lime is very easy to get a high CCE % but that is because of the magnesium in the product. Yes for fish production magnesium is needed but not in the volume ag lime can provide. Mag is still a micro nutrient.


As I understand it, the magnesium is used by plants and animals, but it's largest benefit in our ponds is that it also binds to the solidified calcium ions, preventing calcium from precipitating out and to keep water super-saturated with the calcium.....increasing the total buffer capacity. Correct? (over-simplified, I'm sure)



Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,058
Likes: 7
D
Offline
D
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,058
Likes: 7
Magnesium and Calcium are both alkalies and will not bond together at a chemical level. Magnesium and Calcium both will combine with Phosphates, nitrates, and clay particles tying up excessive phosphates and nitrates. Plants on the bottom can then break the bonds and use them as a slow release fertilizer.

Magnesium is like the fifth most abundant element found in the earths crust, and third most abundant found in sea water, and 10th most abundant in the human body. Calcium is the most abundant element found on earth.

You are correct in away by saying magnesium will keep calcium from precipitating out of a solution but so will potassium. What ever element that can help keep the ph up will keep the alkalies from combining with acids and falling out of the soluble solution.

Magnesium and Calcium are needed for any cell growth weather its a plant or animal. They both truck in nitrates and phosphates.

Dolomite lime has a ratio of about 50% calcium and 40% magnesium the rest is sodium and clay maybe some silica. (EDIT:) 50%-40% is closer to 1-1 but available at 2-1. This ratio is 2-1 calcium to magnesium and in some cases maybe good. I have always been told that a ratio of 7-1 calcium to magnesium is best. Excessive calcium is never a problem as the most abundant element on earth.

If in the fish bio world magnesium is more important than calcium then I may change my mind on the ratio. From my farm chemical background excessive magnesium is bad.

Last edited by DonoBBD; 07/06/16 09:41 AM.

[Linked Image from corvettejunkie.com]
http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4


7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Theo Gallus - 03/28/24 10:27 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by Freg - 03/28/24 09:42 AM
Alum vs Bentonite/Lathanum for Phosphorus Removal?
by DenaTroyer - 03/28/24 09:38 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by esshup - 03/28/24 08:36 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by Justin W - 03/28/24 08:19 AM
Reducing fish biomass
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 08:18 AM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:05 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:02 PM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5