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I have a new pond in Nebraska just being finished up and has about 1 acre of water, will be about 5 acres when it's full hopefully next year, about 20ft deep. I'm looking at doing smallmouth bass instead of largemouth. I want to get the smallmouth going with everything else since they won't manage bluegill as well as largemouth. I'm looking at stocking the below this fall. Minnows, 500 bg, 100 perch, 150 smb, and 50 catfish. Next fall I will stock black crappie and more minnows. Looking for thoughts on doing smallmouth.

Thanks.

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Not sure which part of NE you are in, but I am also in the process of creating a smallmouth fishery. I went with redear sunfish rather than bluegill. They get larger, and don't spawn as prolifically, so control of them isn't as big of concern.


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Welcome to the forum, crashdp!

Since you already know that SMB would have a hard time keeping BG numbers down, Black Crappie will be about 100 times harder for the SMB to keep BCP from overpopulating and stunting.

If you like both BG and BCP, consider using hybrids of both, plus Hybrid Striped Bass with about 300 more YP and about 500 Redear sunfish for snail/parasite control. I'd also suggest stocking Golden Shiners with your Fathead minnows.

Check your Private Messages....



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Your stocking plan is marching on new unproven territory. The HSB will help with control of the blk crappie(BCP) if you use enough HSB. In fact the HSB will be the primary predator to the small BCP. HSB and SMB are compatible in ponds. If the BG or BCP become too abundant after 6-8 yrs you will have to resort to using LMB as the primary predator which is an easy supplemental stocking of bass. Initially I would omit either the BG or BCP.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/01/16 10:17 AM.

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FYI hybrid crappie will reproduce. I would avoid crappie in your situation. More info is working on hybrid crappie in ponds.

From the American Fisheries Society


Survival, Age-0 Abundance, and Growth of Black
Crappie and Hybrid Crappie in 0.1-ha Earthen
Ponds
Brandon M. Baumhoer & Anita M. Kelly
North American Journal of Fisheries Management, 36:3, 447-451, DOI: 10.1080/02755947.2015.1135215


Abstract
Crappie Pomoxis spp. are a popular sportfish in the United
States; many private pond owners would like to stock crappie,
but crappie display inconsistent reproduction, which can lead to
overpopulation and result in a stunted population. Crappie with
limited reproduction would be an attractive management option
for minimizing overpopulation. An experiment was conducted to
measure survival, abundance of age-0 offspring, and growth of
Black Crappie and hybrid crappie (female Black Crappie
P. nigromaculatus × male White Crappie P. annularis) in small
impoundments. Sixteen unfertilized 0.1-ha ponds were stocked
with Black Crappie or hybrid crappie. Half of the ponds with
Black Crappie and hybrid crappie were also stocked with
Largemouth Bass Micropterus salmoides and Bluegill Lepomis
macrochirus, and all ponds were stocked with Fathead Minnow
Pimephales promelas as supplemental forage. In September 2013,
ponds were harvested and drained; weight and lengths were
recorded from all adult Black Crappie and hybrid crappie, and
all age-0 Black Crappie and hybrid crappie were counted and
recorded. Adult survival rates did not differ among groups
(F = 0.72, df = 2, P = 0.5059), ranging from 25% to 58%.
Predation and increased competition with other centrarchids
may be a function of adult Black Crappie and hybrid crappie
survival. The number of age-0 fish recovered from each pond was
highly variable and ranged from 0 to 52,162 individuals, with no
significant differences observed among the groups with and without
predators (F = 3.73, df = 2, P = 0.0524). Hybrid crappie were
significantly heavier (F = 14.36, df = 2, P = 0.0011) and longer
(F = 8.45, df = 2, P = 0.0071) than Black Crappie. Growth rates
for hybrid crappie were higher than any previously documented
research of individual crappie species. High densities of Fathead
Minnow for forage may explain the high growth rates. Hybrid
crappie may be a viable alternative for stocking in small impoundments, but further investigation of the long-term success of stocked hybrid crappie is warranted.


Last edited by ewest; 07/01/16 10:58 AM.















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Hey fellow Husker, welcome to the forum! I love your fishery goals, SMB are amazing and a lot of fun to manage.

I manage several fisheries in NE and many feature cool water species [SMB, HSB, YP, WE] and am happy to help. I am also the only SMB hatchery in NE so can provide some insight there, too. Feel free to reach out anytime - too much to relate here. HBCP can work as they do in my fishery, but it requires pretty dense predator populations, which provides yet another management challenge.



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I wanted SMB but it may not be practical. So maybe I should stock 75-100 LMB instead of the SMB, that way I can stock BCP next fall. I enjoy catching crappie, perch, and bluegill for eating. The SMB was just to have something different to fish for than everywhere else. I will probably add a few RES also. I don't really care to try any hybrids. I'm adding fathead and crawdads in the next week, then fish later.

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TJ knows his smallmouth bass. If you want smallmouth, his advice would be worth seeking out.


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If you want to catch something different and exciting, stock some hybrid striped bass with the LMB. You will not catch any freshwater fish that pulls ounce for ounce as hard as a HSB. Substitute 5-10 HSB/ac in place of that number of LMB/ac. Try the HSB for several years. Then if you don't like them just fish them out. If you like them, ladder stock a few periodically. HSB are excellent at controlling crappie when crappie are young(small) and living in open water.

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Originally Posted By: crashadp
I wanted SMB but it may not be practical.


+1 to HSB.

However, if you really want the SMB, even if you feel you have to stock LMB--just put in some larger ones with your LMB. Sure, they won't flourish, but you'll have enough adaptable individuals that survive to make an interesting addition to your fishery.

If you make the right connections, you might be able to find someone in NE with a SMB pond who is willing to give you, or let you catch, some larger SMB culls. I try to remove around 50/year from my pond, in the 8-14 inch range, to keep competition for the larger fish down.

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Crash, I encourage you to reach out to TJ as mentioned above. I'm a fellow Nebraskan as well, and TJ's advice and guidance through my project has been invaluable. Even if you choose not to go the SMB route, he can help you out.

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I stocked SMB in my pond along with YP and RES. The guys on the forum recommended the HSB to me as well and my initial response was like yours. I wasn't really overly excited about them...But let me tell you they are an absolute hoot! I didn't think there was any fresh water fish alive that could stack up against small mouth bass as far as putting up a fight goes, but they can definitely do it! They are also the fastest growing fish in our pond! stocked them a little over a year ago at 5-6" and we just caught one the other day that weighed in at just slightly under 1 1/2 pounds and was 14" long. That seems crazy to me!! Also Ive had three of them hit a fly in the last week and everyone of them hit so hard they snapped my 4# test tippet line! Guess its time to move up to 6# line...

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Originally Posted By: JamieE
I stocked SMB in my pond along with YP and RES. The guys on the forum recommended the HSB to me as well and my initial response was like yours. I wasn't really overly excited about them...But let me tell you they are an absolute hoot! I didn't think there was any fresh water fish alive that could stack up against small mouth bass as far as putting up a fight goes, but they can definitely do it! They are also the fastest growing fish in our pond! stocked them a little over a year ago at 5-6" and we just caught one the other day that weighed in at just slightly under 1 1/2 pounds and was 14" long. That seems crazy to me!! Also Ive had three of them hit a fly in the last week and everyone of them hit so hard they snapped my 4# test tippet line! Guess its time to move up to 6# line...


I stocked some a year ago. I haven't caught one yet. We've caught several SMB, and they have been a blast. I have had two bites/hits though, from fish that I did not see, but really felt bigger than anything else we've caught. Just hammered my jig. I thought maybe somebody threw in a larger fish, that I'm just not aware of.. But your comments make me think maybe I had a hit from a HSB. Now I'm anxious to try and catch one.
What fly did they hit? Imitation minnow..
Thx
Jeff

Last edited by SetterGuy; 07/02/16 09:53 AM.

9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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They really seem to like a slow sinking nymph fly! It actually feels like a 4# fish is smacking the fly when they hit it! The smallies are a bit smaller at 1# and 12 1/2", but they I haven't had them break the 4# test line yet and Ive caught several.

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I talked to TJ and my strategy has changed a bit and appreciate the insight. I'm looking at doing HBG instead of BG, along with SMB, YP, HSB, WE, RES, CC, BCP, FHM, and GSH. The suggestion was to go with Hybrid BCP, but will just do BCP for cost reasons and wanting one fish for kids to catch easily and eat. I will keep every BCP we catch, unless the predator fish sustain them and it's not needed.

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BG can always be added later if you don't have enough forage numbers. As the planned fish forage density becomes fewer reduce number of predators which help increase existing forage density and their survivors.


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Originally Posted By: JamieE
They really seem to like a slow sinking nymph fly! It actually feels like a 4# fish is smacking the fly when they hit it! The smallies are a bit smaller at 1# and 12 1/2", but they I haven't had them break the 4# test line yet and Ive caught several.


Thanks Jamie, I think I've had two hits from the HSB. One of these days I'll land one. They seem like 4 times the fish as the SMB, and the SMB seem like 4 times the fish as the YP. Ha!


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Does anybody have experience with HBG and RES. I'm wondering if they cross if the result will be undesirable (not seeing much researching) I will hold off on the crappie for now and reassess in a couple years. I'm not as concerned as everyone else with the crappie as I want to do some management as that is what I love doing with existing ponds and all have crappie, but not the pond size and cover of this so I'll wait. HBG, RES, SMB, HSB, YP, CC and minnows. I may throw in 5 Northern instead of WE later on that I catch out of the river. Hopefully not offensive as everyone loves WE. I just don't care to reel in a stick, want fish that attack and fight. I appreciate all the insight and recommendations. This is the first pond I'm doing from scratch. Our other ponds are much smaller but have good BG, LMB, WCP, CC.

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HBG and RES may hybridize - I have some in my own fishery, the few fish caught were all quite large. I don't recall reviewing any scientific research on GSF/BG x RES offspring, but imagine at least 70%+ are males and have never become a management issue for me. You mentioned an interest in HBG and this is also why I recommended potentially stocking both RES and HBG - any hybridization could become an interesting experiment and a bonus catch.


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The questions are many and the answers few.

There is info that says F1 lepomis crosses (some types)can reproduce making F2s and some can back cross with parentals. There is also info saying HBG cant back cross with parentals.

Here is one source

HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS



Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.

Sex determination in sunfishes is very poorly understood. Bluegills, green sunfish, and their F1 hybrids apparently have 24 pairs of chromosomes, and the sex chromosomes are indistinguishable from the autosomes (Bright 1937). Bright also reported that the chromosomes are so similar in shape and size that he was unable to detect specific differences. Roberts (1964) found that red-ear, bluegill, and warmouth sunfishes each have 24 pairs of chromosomes; green sunfish from North Carolina had 24 pairs; but green sunfish from West Virginia had only 23 pairs.

The unbalanced phenotypic tertiary sex ratios of the F1 hybrid sunfish could result from unbalanced primary genetic sex ratios, specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors, an overriding of the genetic sex by environmental factors, or differential mortality of the sexes.

Since the WG F1 hybrids were 84 percent males and the reciprocal cross hybrids were 16 percent males, it is possible that the strength of sex-determining factors of warmouths are 5.25 times more powerful than those of green sunfish. Specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors cannot alone explain the sex ratios of the remaining eight kinds of viable hybrids, since none of these were predominately females.

RB and BG F1 hybrids were both 97 percent males. If differential mortality were the cause of these unbalanced sex ratios, much of the mortality would have had to occur after the swim-up fry stages, since in the stripping experiments total mortality between fertilization and the swim-up fry stages was only 14 percent for the RB and 27 percent for the BG F1 hybrids.

It is not known which sex is the heterogametic condition for the sex chromosomes of the four experimental species; however, Haldane (1922) formulated a rule which furnishes a clue: “When in the F1 offspring of a cross between two animal species or races, one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is always the heterozygous sex.” Using Haldane's rule, Krumholz (1950), in a study concerning BR F1 hybrids, pointed out that the males of both bluegills and red-ear sunfish are probably homozygametic for sex and the females heterozygametic. The application of Haldane's rule to all possible F1 hybrids produced from red-ear sunfish, bluegills, and green sunfish indicates that the female is the heterozygametic sex in these three species. Hybridization of male warmouths with females of the three Lepomis species resulted in partial or complete lethals, suggesting that in the warmouth the male is the heterogametic sex.

4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.

Backcrosses, outcrosses, a four-species cross, and a three-species cross involving F1 hybrids are listed in Table III. The BW × B backcross was made by stocking adult male BW F1 hybrids and adult female bluegills in a pond which contained no other fishes. The other 12 crosses listed in Table III were made by stripping gametes from ripe adults and rearing the young to the free-swimming fry stage in the laboratory.

R × RW, W × RW, B × RW, G × RW, R × GB, and RB × W young were killed after they developed into free-swimming fry because of the lack of ponds in which they could be stocked. All six kinds of fry appeared to be normal and probably would have developed into adults. Free-swimming fry of the remaining six crosses in the laboratory were stocked in ponds and did develop into adult fishes. BW × B, G × GW, and B × RG populations produced large numbers of young.





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I added 4000 FHM a month ago. Hoping they'll spawn this year. Looking at adding 50 SMB, 300 YP, 400 HBG, and 100 RES this fall if I can find everything. Maybe some HSB also. I'll catch my own CC next year and probably add more fish next year, depending how fast the dam fills.

We dug a few big trenches and put mounds from that dirt throughout the 5-20ft of water. (Depth where the water will be when full) There is really good contour throughout. Also added a bunch of cedar trees in different spots for structure.

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So now I got turned away from HBG, explained I had all predators and HBG will be green sungish in 6 years. Now stocking 500 BG 1-3", 600 YP 2-3", 100 RES, 100 CC, hopefully 100 SMB later if I can get them. I am a little concerned the BG will spawn next year and YP and SMB not for a couple years. Should I be concerned with BG management? There is a lot of tall weed cover.

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Adding pic, water is 12 ft deep around island where they dug out. Will be another 10ft eventually.

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Originally Posted By: crashadp
So now I got turned away from HBG, explained I had all predators and HBG will be green sungish in 6 years. Now stocking 500 BG 1-3", 600 YP 2-3", 100 RES, 100 CC, hopefully 100 SMB later if I can get them. I am a little concerned the BG will spawn next year and YP and SMB not for a couple years. Should I be concerned with BG management? There is a lot of tall weed cover.


Who said they would revert back to GSF?
Did you run this by TJ?
It don't sound right to me. There has been some discussion in past threads on this, and If I recall correctly, there is no need to worry, at least in a way that it will hurt plans.

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Your main concern with your current plan will be keeping the BG from becoming too abundant which is a very common problem without LMB. You mentioned you have tall weed cover which will enhance the problem of too many small BG.

This is a quote from "Talking Points: Smallmouth Bass" by Willis and Cody in Pond Boss Magazine Jan-Feb 2013. Willis and Cody discuss 19 points and basic concepts for growing smallmouth bass.
"Smallmouth bass simply are not as effective of predators as largemouth bass so do not consider them pond equivalents. If you have a 3 acre pond with a 25% coverage of submergent aquatic plants during midsummer, a smallmouth bass -- bluegill combination will not be a good idea. The smallmouths will not control the bluegills, which will overpopulate and stunt. Similarly, smallmouth bass will not control yellow perch in this type of habitat. Too much protective cover for the perch, and the smallies will not control them."

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/21/16 09:25 AM.

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Originally Posted By: crashadp
So now I got turned away from HBG, explained I had all predators and HBG will be green sungish in 6 years. Now stocking 500 BG 1-3", 600 YP 2-3", 100 RES, 100 CC, hopefully 100 SMB later if I can get them. I am a little concerned the BG will spawn next year and YP and SMB not for a couple years. Should I be concerned with BG management? There is a lot of tall weed cover.


I'm on year 8 with no GSF.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I'm told different things everytime I talk to someone. I agree that bluegill control will be my concern. The aquaculturist I got the fish from told me I should just establish bluegill for forage this year and add predators ( smallmouth and perch next year.) He also said I should stock a 5:1 bluegill to predator ratio. This didn't sound right since i dont have LMB so I asked to get more perch than he suggested. He also said my smallmouth won't reproduce so I'm concerned with that now. I'm hoping I can get smallmouth since he said they are hard to come by. I don't want to add LMB, so thinking about getting a few HSB which he advised against saying they would clean everthing out. In which case I could just catch them and take them out if that did happen in my opinion. The weed cover I'm referring to and that is in the pic may be temporary once they are under water I'm guessing that will kill a lot off, I just don't know. I will probably contact TJ if he doesn't chime in but what is stocked is stocked. I probably just should of talked to only him but this guy had most of the fish and was pretty adamant to do things a certain way. Last resort I can always add LMB later prob losing my perch ending up with what I have in all our smaller ponds. I still feel I can manage the pond somewhat, I love to fish and move fish to ponds that need them and so does family so if there are to many bluegill or perch I will catch them and eat or move them. I'm not looking for a pond that just 100% manages itself, that's what I love doing. I was just hoping to have a pond I can catch fish I don't have everywhere.

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If you put some spawning habitat in there for the Smallies, they will spawn and reproduce. No worries. A client had some excavator buckets of 2"-3" river rock spread in 5-6 areas around one of the ponds, and while it isn't the best habitat, the SMB are reproducing in that pond.

Talk to TJ. He can set you on the correct path. If you want SMB and haven't stocked the BG yet, don't stock the BG. I think you can accomplish a lot by having the proper habitat and cover in the pond for the forage fish (YP included) and have SMB/HSB.

If you talk to the guy that said SMB wouldn't reproduce, ask him why they won't reproduce and ask for specifics.


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SMB can reproduce even in absence of rock/gravel for beds - I have beds fanned on clay in my main pond every year. Myself and several others have documented SMB beds on clay on the forum in the past.

HSB will not "clean everything out", depending on stocking density, they are an apex predator but pelagic in nature and limited by a fairly small gape. Feeding HSB is a great way to ensure fast growth and also to help relieve pressure on the forage base.

HBG will not revert to GSF in 6 years - still a good idea as insurance to add HBG genetics every few years however.

The fishery advice you received, in my opinion, was not based on direct fishery management experience of these specific species.

Spent an hour providing consultation plus sent a detailed stocking strategy based on personal experience in addition to 8 years of forum research derived from fishery biologists nationwide in an effort to help. Not sure what else I can do at this point. I tried my best to help.




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I am just going to throw this comment out there, more or less to remind ALL those that may be reading this that are thinking/planning stocking. The main contributors to this forum that have been doing this for years rarely get any benefit back from their years of knowledge. They aren't trying to sell you fish. Those that stock fish are doing the opposite, they want/need to sell fish, sometimes even selling you more than you need. Then if you have a stocking plan that is a bit "out of the box" thinking, your regular fish stocker won't have a clue to long term success. Again, the folks here are trying a lot of the different scenarios and know first hand what things work and don't, and what they would do differently if re-doing it.

Having said that, I bet a lot of the folks here that are pioneers in different stocking strategies where looked upon as "not listening". Because of them, we all know so much more of what works and what don't, and it also brings forth new ideas that someone may try.

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I sure appreciate all the high quality advice that I have benefited from on this forum, and the folks that take the time to share their expertise. My SMB/YP pond is still too young to evaluate, and I stocked very very lightly. I think the most "successful" pond bosses are those that enjoy the process and their ponds (as measured in "smile-days").

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Thanks for the advice as it is appreciated. I added a couple loads of gravel already and am going to add some bigger rocks to try to make a few beds to aid in SMB spawning. I will look at adding a few HSB also if I can get them as they will be an exciting addition.

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I too concur that TJ and a host of other fishery biologists, algae experts, stocking experts, water quality experts, and pond bosses in general can tell you everything you need to know if one takes the time to push away the pre-conceived notions and just listen. I too was confused with the state DNR advice being so different from advice here.

The state still has one mantra, stock channel cats, BG, HBG and hundreds of bass. That would have been terrible advice for most people on this forum.

Patience, patience! I'm in my third year of managing my puddle and the learning curve still is steep. I'm thrilled with the advice I got here. I was going to put predators in during the end of year 2 but in comparing notes with others on the forum, they had piles of forage, clouds of minnows and I did not see that yet. Fast forward to summer of the 3rd year and now I'm starting to see clouds of shiner minnows, my perch have had a tiny hatch the first year and a bigger hatch the 2nd year, my RES did not spawn till this year and now seeing tiny RES. Things are shaping up. None and I mean NONE of this would have happened if I took the advice of the state and put channel cats and 150 LMB in last year or even (horrors) the year before as they advised.

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It is very hard to go to a fish hatchery/seller and not go overboard. Why is that?... Like a kid in a candy shop who wants everything and knows that it will make you sick in the end. You go to the hatchery with a very set plan, and they start talking about this way or that and I get so lured in that it is very hard to resist. It takes a lot of restrain (at least for me). If I only had an unlimited amount of ponds.......

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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
SMB can reproduce even in absence of rock/gravel for beds - I have beds fanned on clay in my main pond every year. Myself and several others have documented SMB beds on clay on the forum in the past.


TJ, in your experience, what is the reproduction success of the SMB that bedded on the clay substrate vs. the rocky substrate?

RAH, I have a client that stocked his ponds at a lighter than normal stocking rate, and those ponds don't seem to be doing as well as the ponds that were stocked at the rate that is recommended here for forage and predators. I don't know if it is the predators in there not allowing the forage to grow large enough to reproduce in sufficient numbers or what the problem is. The predator fish just don't seem to have the growth rate (even though they were stocked light too) that I typically see in other ponds.


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crashadp - you will get numerous opinions of what to do for stocking. Decide on your goals then seek advice that will dependably produce those goals. Be very leery of advice from fish hatchery farmers whose business is to grow & SELL primarily small fish and have little experience managing communities of adult fish. Seek second opinions, and when two or three opinions match, the the info is likely sound. We here specialize in managing adult fish as sport fish.

Do not stock BG initially with the SMB as the main predator. YOU can readily grow tremendous reproducing SMB if they are trained to eat fish pellets. First try other combinations. You can always very easily add BG later if needed, but you can't get them out if needed short of pond renovation.

It is hard to keep SMB from reproducing in a pond when LMB are absent. LMB strongly suppress success of Smallies in ponds. Too many predators of the SMB fry including aggressive sunfish will significantly suppress SMB recruitment into juvenile smallies.

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Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
SMB can reproduce even in absence of rock/gravel for beds - I have beds fanned on clay in my main pond every year. Myself and several others have documented SMB beds on clay on the forum in the past.


TJ, in your experience, what is the reproduction success of the SMB that bedded on the clay substrate vs. the rocky substrate?

RAH, I have a client that stocked his ponds at a lighter than normal stocking rate, and those ponds don't seem to be doing as well as the ponds that were stocked at the rate that is recommended here for forage and predators. I don't know if it is the predators in there not allowing the forage to grow large enough to reproduce in sufficient numbers or what the problem is. The predator fish just don't seem to have the growth rate (even though they were stocked light too) that I typically see in other ponds.


I have two ponds with SMB recruitment - my main pond and the SMB reproduction pond. In the main pond there are a few areas of limestone cobble and SMB spawn there annually, but I also see 1-2 beds on fanned clay. The YOY stick relatively close to the Male guarding the bed, so I can determine if eggs made it or not, and do witness larval schools on/near the clay beds.

In the repro pond I never had a SMB pair try to bed on clay, only used my designed rock beds - which suggests they prefer rock to clay.

What I suspect is that SMB prefer rock substrate, but are willing to utilize clay if necessary. I strongly suspect hatching success is also improved on rock substrate due to oxygenation and reduced siltation, yet have evidence of successful hatching on clay as well.

Fisheries depending on SMB recruitment should create rocky areas minimally, or create beds based on design I created or similar to increase odds of SMB recruitment.

However, lack of rock does not mean one will never see SMB recruitment. The reason I raise this issue is to help educate those who would otherwise believe the lack of rock means zero SMB recruitment. If they are basing their fishery management strategy on this detail, important to understand SMB recruitment is possible, regardless of presence of rock. Might alter their game plan somewhat.


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Per my initial consultation, BG management with limited gape predators will be difficult and ongoing, day after day, month after month, season after season. This is why I recommended RES [and possibly HBG if you really wanted an aggressive panfish to target]. RES far less fecund than BG, and 97% of HBG are male...what this means is both species are far easier to manage, if management is needed at all aside from removing female HBG and introducing some new HBG genetics from time to time. Also per my previous post, RES/HBG hybridization may occur, but I have them myself and they do not present an issue in any way - rather they grow quite large and are cool looking fish. Scott you remember that behemoth we sampled in the fyke net?



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I will work on creating some beds with larger rocks on the gravel that is already there to help with SMB spawning. I will do some at various depths as I don't know where the water level will sustain itself yet.

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I have a lot of small GSH in my pond based on numbers of small fish seen and on minnow trap catches. I caught fewer small YP and FHM. I am guessing that 10 SMB in an acre pond with vegetation will not be too hard on the forage until they spawn.

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Beds should be placed in varying depths 2-6' depths. I like elevating mine off the pond bottom to help reduce siltation process using cinder blocks and pallets. My design is somewhere on the forum archives - work very well keeping beds clean and SMB love them.


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Thank you, I saw that post earlier and will try to create a similar setup for the SMB. I have access to a bunch of rocks 6-12" diameter so will use those for the outside. BTW, what size will they spawn? My thought of getting smaller SMB this year was financial related, expecting them to be the 4-6" next year, which was recommended to stock next fall. I do realize they will eat some FHM until they get to next fall but there are a ton of FHM and figured 100 2-4" SMB wouldn't consume that many before next fall since all the fish being stocked are really small and FHM will continue reproducing until the fish get a little bigger (next fall hopefully).

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I can't tell if my SMB spawned or not. Too many tadpoles to use any fish traps. They just fill every type of trap up immediately. Lots of large schools of tiny fish swimming around. A lot of feeding going on also. From the surface I see little fish jumping out of the water, followed by the swirls of the larger fish. I'm hoping the GSH, FHM, YP, and RES have been productive. The HBG, not so much. I built SMB beds when the pond was filling, but I do not think they were used. I have 2" gravel above 4-6" rock, and I think I need another layer of even smaller rock.
I certainly love catching the SMB and eating the YP.. The action at the feeder is amazing. Food is all consumed in seconds. (Might all be the HBG, I don't know.)
I still haven't caught a HSB yet, but I've had a few strikes that are very strong.. Just haven't got one in yet.
I really recommend this stocking scenario. I've fished many ponds with BG, LMB, and CC. They are great too, it's just fun having something different. YP especially if you like eating fish. I do..


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Not expecting to recieve a response in time, but if I do, great. I dug out a bunch of rocks today at our old farm house about 1/4 mile away from the dam. Moving them tomorrow. Wondering if I should use them all to make the perimeter of SMB beds, adding gravel inside, or put them on the dam for minnows, etc. I'm thinking making 6 or so beds and rest on the dam from water edge to 10' deep. I'm guessing there will be about 5 loader buckets full if we could haul full bucket loads. Not a whole lot but I'm not using them for anything else. Rocks are 6" to 24" diameter.

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Been raising SMB for several years, here's what I've learned:

Would not create beds on pond bottom of NE clay pond, they will work at first but after a few seasons they will silt in over time and become buried under silt/muck/organic material and become lost/useless. Elevate beds using pallets and cinderblocks on front end [if you have a steep slope] per my post/photos somewhere in the forum. Ring with cinderblocks horseshoe shape keeping front open. On pallet place plastic mesh 1/2" - 1" [wider the better allowing silt to flow through and not accumulate] and add 1-3" rock for bed 2"+ thick - not gravel. I do not recommend gravel, it will become very compact and does not allow silt to flow through beds, silt will accumulate on beds. Further, per Cody coarse rock allows eggs to remain oxygenated and prevents siltation which can smother them. Suggest using 1-3" rock for beds and cinderblocks for bed ring.

Blocks are better suited for bed ring as they won't roll/move. I would identify the area of the pond receiving most wave action and place the rocks on shoreline to help prevent erosion. Better suited for that IMO than making bed ring.

Learned this the hard way through trial and error over 8 seasons of SMB reproduction - elevated beds in NE clay ponds is the way to go.


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Thanks for the input, I was going to put these on the 20' x 100' gravel we put on top of the clay. I have pallets at the dam already but was going to keep the nails out of the pond for possibility of future swimming but I can do that. I have some cinder blocks but thought these might serve same purpose. I will just put these rocks on the shoreline. I will just need to get some mesh and 1-3" rock quick since water is getting close to where I need to put them.

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Gravel placed on clay bottom without benefit of landscape fabric will integrate into the pond bottom and disappear into muck in a few seasons, just fyi. Just a fact of pond life in NE. I have several 3-6" limestone "fields" in my pond, and after 8 years they are entirely buried in organic material/silt. I receive very little runoff in the pond, also. Just trying to manage your expectations. The large rock [8-12"+] placed deeper is still free of silt and isn't buried nearly as much. Building a beach in a clay pond is somewhat of an undertaking, several posts on forum discussing the process. Bottom line, it's not as easy as we'd like it to be. If you want gravel/rock to remain separate form pond bottom in NE one needs to elevate it, use larger rock, or employ landscape fabric.


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Since I'm going against the tried and true methods with some of my management, I will send updates on how things are going. Last fall I created about 12 spawning beds for SMB. I made about 2-3' circles with 12"-24" boulders and filled them with about 8" of 2-4" rock because that is what I had easily available. I had previously stocked FHM earlier and there were millions of them. In Sept-Nov I stocked 500 2-3" BG, 600 2-3" YP, 100 3-4" RES, 100 2" CC, and 200 5-7" SMB. I don't expect anything to spawn this season except the BG probably but I will be fishing anyway so I can watch the progress. I plan on managing BG populations heavily, and don't have a problem with that. I will look into HSB possibly in the near future. The pond just started running through the tube this week so it filled a year or 2 faster than I expected. We dug a few different holes and piles with the excavator to create additional contour throughout the pond. I also have hardwood and cedar trees placed throughout. I have been taking pictures throughout so will upload some pics at some point.

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Good update and good progress. At 2 years old, I suspect the RES and YP might spawn in 2017. I'm guessing somewhere in the group of 600 small perch there were some larger ones of +/-4". I've seem 4"YP have eggs. You will be surprised at how much those stocked fish will grow in 2017.

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Went fishing a couple times the past few weeks and first time fished with crawlers and caught 9 perch, 7-8". They were 2-3" last fall! Last time just used rubber worm and caught 8 SMB 10-11", they were 5-7" last fall. Everything is really fat and still seeing millions of minnows. Those SMB were a blast to catch. Haven't caught any BG or RES yet, but saw a couple BG, guessing they are only 5-6". No catfish but they were about 1" last fall. After a couple years, still may throw in some HBCP and/or HSB.

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Update. Pond is doing great. Original perch 2.5 years old are 10". Original Smallmouth are 14" to 16" and a blast to catch. Took the kids out and caught about 10 last weekend, fun on a light action rod. BG are 7-8", not sure if originals, dont catch a lot of them which is good, as I don't want them to take over. CC are 14"-17". Perch spawned good, catch lots of 2-8". Smallmouth have spawned, had 1 about 3" in minnow trap. Crawdads are doing good, catch them in my fish trap. Everything is really fat and healthy. This winter or next year, I'll start harvesting some perch and bluegill.

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Nice when a plan works out. Congratulations.

I agree that the SMB are a blast to catch.


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That’s a plump looking SMB! They are indeed, a blast to catch.
Nice!


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Fantastic report and beautiful fish!


Fish on!,
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Very nice SMB - congrats and well done !

In many ponds the first 3 years after initial stocking go well - good growth and numbers. It is when all the offspring start using up space and resources that issues develop. That is when management is most needed in the form of harvest. Many things can cause management problems like weather , overpopulation (imbalance) like small or missing year classes , unwanted water quality issues or plant growth and many more.
















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Thanks, the things I can do something about I will. The management part is the fun part like our other ponds I'm sure will go through cycles and this one will need more management. I'm thinking about starting to keep last years spawn BG and YP that are just big enough to eat and leave the original/bigger fish. Not always easy to tell but I have a good idea for the most part. If I continue to keep that size, should help with having bigger fish and removing some competition.

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