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At this point, I don't think you desperately need to start the pond over based on your stated goals. You can always kill or renovate the pond later if the fishery degrades to unacceptable conditions. snrub has provided some common sense advice - do some selective fish removal which can deal with overstocked. Keep in mind you will need lots of small bass to control offspring of the crappie when they are large enough to spawn.

Add several large 8" BG from any good water quality source which can't cause a lot more negative impact. Look through the sunfish archive for differences between the species including hybridBG. Know the basic differences. Note the pure BG (males and females) have a completely dark gill flap to the margin with absolutely no colored or clear thin rear margin possessed by most other sunfish and their hybrids.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482
Although you possibly received some hybrids or GSF fingerlings with your order of 'red & blue bluegill' from Zetts. At 1"-2" long the sunfish species are very difficult to distinguish from a mixed or contaminated species pond at the fish farm.

Your introduced plants are probably okay, but keep an eye open & remove any unplanted things growing among or near those that were planted. From experience, Zetts sells some acceptable water lilies. His yellow iris spread fast so watch for that potential.

One correction, Daphnia (aka water fleas) do not cause swimmers itch. Swimmers itch is an itching rash caused by a free-swimming parasite (cercaria) of flukes that try to burrow into the skin of people in the water. The cercaria are looking for waterfowl and swimmers are a substitute. Snails are the parasite host and a part of the life cycle of the flukes. Any introduced snails can be contaminated with a life stage of the flukes. Waterfowl transport the flukes.

The Daphnia are a beneficial water filtering zooplankton Crustacean. The fingerling fish, minnows, and shiners will pretty much eliminate the Dephnia depending on the species(adult size) that Zetts provided. Some adult Daphnia are large and vulnerable whereas some are a lot smaller and can survive some fish predation in certain conditions. IMO the Zetts Daphnia cultures are very likely not pure Daphnia cultures and include numerous species of mixed zooplankton; not really a bad thing.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/27/16 11:19 AM.

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You can catch some of those koi on bread balls and remove some of them.

(I have an over stocked koi situations and have been doing this)

To not totally start over, start fishing out and removing some bass , catfish and even crappy. Add some larger BG and maybe larger Golden shiners as additional forage.


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Thanks for correcting me on the Daphnia, Bill.

I was up late and knew snails (mollusks) are the vector , but mis-read where parasitic research was also done using Daphnia as a host for the miracidia, but after I just re-read the rather confusing article on parasitism, it was another parasite tested in the Daphnia Magna.

I agree that fishing out several fish can be done, yet having the pond away from home, may make managing out of the overstocking very difficult, if even possible, where starting over could be a less costly, labor intensive option.

Last edited by Rainman; 06/27/16 09:50 AM.


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If he has very specific goals and those goals are already compromised, then I see that as a viable alternative Rex.

But with his stated goals and he have already accepted that those fish were ok with him to be there in the first place (Koi, etc. - otherwise he would not have bought them and brought them home) along with the fact that even when stocking is done perfectly some ponds end up being problematic with trash fish it would be hard for anyone but the most die-hard angler with high expectations to throw away the money they have already spent without at least trying to make it work.

Starting over is no guarantee of problem free progress. Look how many on this forum have had problems with fish being bucket stocked or swam in from other BOW's or a different fish supplier with contaminated fish supply (it does happen and how many can actually look at 2" fish and know for sure - a very small minority of common non-professional pond owner fish handlers) or who knows how else some of those fish get there. So even starting over is no absolute guarantee.

Think if the guy nuked it and had a high water event after spending his hard earned money all over again and trash fish stymied the whole thing. How many years are down the road now before he even wets a hook? At that point I would likely just hire a bulldozer to fill it back in.

I can catch some pretty nice fish out of my old pond and it has a bunch of GSF and BH that I managed around. I don't think we need to make the guy feel any worse than he already does and I don't see his problem being the end of the world based on his stated goals.

We do need to let him know what his challenges might be though so he knows what to expect and he can go from there.

But that is just a non-expert opinion.

Last edited by snrub; 06/27/16 10:44 AM.

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Something for Kirk to read about using or stocking crappie.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=450643#Post450643

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/27/16 11:16 AM.

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Here is another thread on crappie that at least turned out pretty well at 3 years with the talk of potential problems later.

crappie pond whatcha think

And this one with mnfish

black crappie management

I don't have crappie and no experience with them but have enjoyed the discussion of management successes.

Last edited by snrub; 06/27/16 12:39 PM.

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Kirk, I scanned back over all this thread and I did not see any specific stated goals for the fishery. If they are in there I missed them and that is usually one of the first questions given to new posters.......... what are your goals for the pond?

That question is of the utmost importance. Is the primary goal fishing or is that a secondary or third or fourth goal? If you want to raise trophy LMB or some other fish specific goal the plans moving forward might be a lot different than if you want a general panfish fishery you can get a meal once in a while and the kids can catch fish easily. The recommendations for growing a double digit bass may go from the extreme of killing the pond off and starting over better to if you want a kiddy fishing pond with a fish on every cast you might be right on target to get there. I had a dozen kids over fishing Saturday and I noticed no difference in the excitement between a 4" BG and a 9" BG pulled in. I was more excited about the nine incher but for the kids numbers seemed what mattered.

Don't get discouraged. Let us know what you expect to accomplish or what you expect out of the pond, and it will make it a lot easier to get good advice. Without stated goals, everyone that posts has to come up with their own version of what they would envision the pond to be. Their vision may be nothing like yours.

In my case I have no desire for trophy fish. Some guys the fish and fishing are the goal and the pond is just a way to get there. They want a 12# bass and want to know how to get it. For me it is the complete opposite. The pond and the process is what floats my boat and the fishing is just a nice sideline. I get more fun from and spend more time feeding my fish daily than I do actually fishing for them, although the fishing is fun too. In my case the journey IS the destination. I have about as much fun trapping little fish and moving them to another pond. Am I doing the right thing? Probably not but I am having fun doing it and isn't that supposed to be what a hobby is for? (other than throwing vast amount of time and money into a bottomless pit).

So before some of the recommendations get you in a tizzy, figure out what is actually important to you and try to convey it to us. Then the guys and gals on here that actually know something (myself not included) can do a lot better with the direction you need to go to get there.

Don't get discouraged. You are going to enjoy your pond.

P.S. Welcome to the forum!

Last edited by snrub; 06/27/16 01:32 PM.

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I agree with Bill that you can over time correct the situation by harvest and stocking adult (5 + inch) BG. Harvest all of the other fish you catch other than BG and RES.
















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As far as I can tell here are Kirk's goals: "I don't have any aspirations of growing record book fish. Just would like to have a visibly good looking pond to relax around and enjoy pulling some nice fish out every now and then."


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I thought I had read that but when I scanned back to look for it could not find it! Thanks.

In my opinion that leaves a pretty wide latitude for management mistakes and still possibly end up with a decent fishery, at least for a few years. Maybe eventual problems, but seems not insurmountable.


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Ok guys I am back. Took me a little bit to read all the input and have to admit that I have not gone to the links yet to read about crappie.

Snrub, you ask a very good question and although I did put something in an earlier post about my goals it is probably worth some additional time to make sure everyone understands them. My building the pond is not about growing trophy fish. The property is a paradise away from the hectic work schedule for DOD near the nations capitol. My real aspirations are to grow antlers and that is why I found a place in Ohio. The pond was added for aesthetic value primarily. Sounds like I am inline with you in that if I can put a smile on a kids face by pulling in a medium size BG, LMG, CC, Crappie or whatever it will be a success. I like the sounds of bull frogs in the evening and at night and love the looks of lilies and stumps in the water (even if I lose every lure I own).

I think that if I summarize the recommendation they are as follows:

1. Remove as many LMB, CC, Koi, Crappie as you can.
2. Put in 8-10 large BG (preferable males) - I will have to get from pond across street. Should be able to get some 8+ inch fish.

I assume the YP were a waste of money as they will just provide food for the LMB.

Questions:

Will putting in a mature LMB help with #1? If so, what size is best?

Are there other predators that would help out?

What should I do with any BG that I catch (throw them back or keep them out as well)?

What about FHM's. Should I stock or will the existing LMB's just clean them up? There is lots of cover in pond.


------------------------------------

The funny thing is that to get the 8+ inch BG and the LMB up to probably 5# I just need to go across the road (to a neighbors) and fish a totally overgrown and neglected 1/2 pond. That is what I want : ).

I also have a 1/2 pond on the border of my property and 2 others. Since it is shared I have not considered doing much with it.

Once again, thanks for all the input.

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How do you attach a photo. I have a photo of the BG we were catching across the road and you guys could probably tell me what type they were.

If you are interested you can also go to this site and see the pond and a few picts of building the pond.

www.flickr.com/buckeye-lodge

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Adding photos to posts.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92443#Post92443
The YP were not a waste of money. The stocker fish will perform pretty well until they die of old age. Unless the pond has a decent amount of submerged vegetation don't expect a lot of the offspring to survive the intense bass predation that is needed to control crappie. YP are a slender bodied fish for a long period and easier for bass to eat-swallow compared to sunfish and crappie.

Answers 1. IMO I would not add any larger bass. Your existing numerous 7"-8" actively growing bass are more than adequate for your needs.

2. LMB are one of the best fish predators due to their aggressiveness and large mouth.

3. I would release all the current BG and 'red gills'(RES?) that you catch. Zetts fingerling red & blue gill (>3")may have included hybrid BG which is a common occurrence with some fish farms even Fenders. However others may have different 2nd opinions. At this point in time I think you need the spawn from the small BG and possibly the few add stock adult BG to keep the numerous bass growing.

4. Adding more FHM after this point benefits the fish farm the most, not much benefit to predators in your pond. FHM are best served to get quick growth of bass the first year. Other fish then become the backbone preyfish of the fishery. You now want your existing fast growing bass to prey heavily of the current hatchling BG that is now occurring. The new hatchling BG will quickly in 1 month be 1" long and good food for 8" bass and other fish present that are able to eat fish less than 1"long.

It would be informative for members here for you to return next year and report the progress of your pond.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/27/16 07:02 PM.

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Kirk sounds like Bill Cody has a good plan for you.

I will say one thing about moving big BG over from the other pond. I would encourage you to move not only the big ones you are talking about, but also some in the 5-8" range. If BG only live about 6 years and you put all big, mature 9" ones you might be moving them at near the end of their life cycle. You might only get a year or two of spawning from them. Also it is my understanding that large mature fish may have a harder time acclimating to a new environment than younger fish.

So from my perspective (and I may be wrong, listen to guys like Bill Cody over me) I would try to catch and move a variety of fish from 5" on up. Those are all fish large enough to spawn (and large enough so your LMB will not eat them) but then you will have laddered sizes with some that have several years left to grow and spawn.

Edit: Looked at your photos. Beautiful place and nice setup you have!

Last edited by snrub; 06/28/16 10:40 AM.

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It would be okay to also move some smaller BG. I would move mostly 6"+ fish. If you want opinions of male vs female before moving get us some pictures of test fishing from the neighbors pond. Males should be nesting now,, so those you catch in the nesting area would be mostly males. Focus your main attention on the size and shape of the gill flap. Also females will have yellow breast area while males will have darker rust breast bottom in front the pelvic fins.


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I talked to the folks at Fenders. They said they will sell me some big BG. I will pick them up on Wednesday. My uncle and I were talking about moving the fish and we thought that might be a bad idea. We have noticed that the fish in the neighbors pond have the parasite that looks like pepper. Based on it being spread by birds I would guess it is only a matter of time before I get it in my pond but why rush it. Is this the right move? I guess I might have brought parasites in from Zett's and may get more from Fenders or are the fisheries fairly safe from parasites?

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I posted the best picture I had from some of the BG we caught at the flickr link. It is not a very good picture. Fish had been in the bucket for a bit and color has changed.

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From the Indiana DNR website:

Black-spot disease


These parasitic flatworms appear as tiny black spots on the skin, fins and flesh of fish. No method of control is available for the elimination of this problem. (Note from esshup: Stocking Redear Sunfish to eliminate the snails in the pond will break the life cycle thread and the black spot parasite will disappear.) This organism does little harm to the fish. The main problem associated with black-spot is the unsightly appearance it may cause. Skinning infected fish will remove most black spots.

The life cycle of the parasite is quite complex. A fish-eating bird (typically a great blue heron or kingfisher) eats an infected fish. The black spot or worms are released and grow to sexual maturity in the bird's intestine. The adult worms pass eggs with the bird's droppings. When the eggs reach water, they hatch into free-swimming organisms which then penetrate snails for further development. Finally, after leaving the snails they burrow into the skin of fish and form a cyst. The fish surrounds the cyst with black pigment that gives the disease its name. If an infected fish is consumed by a bird, the cycle repeats itself


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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If you can buy known quality fish and the cost or trip to get them is not insurmountable, that is the way I would go. Surely the fish farm at least goes to some length to provide the best genetics they can muster. That pot luck seems like a better chance than the pot luck of catching fish in the neighbor pond.

But either way will help you out, in my opinion.


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The more I stock and haul fish, the more picky I am about where I source the fish. Some suppliers are more careful in how the fish are handled prior to pick up, and that translates to better fish going into the pond.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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Originally Posted By: esshup
From the Indiana DNR website:

Black-spot disease


These parasitic flatworms appear as tiny black spots on the skin, fins and flesh of fish. No method of control is available for the elimination of this problem. (Note from esshup: Stocking Redear Sunfish to eliminate the snails in the pond will break the life cycle thread and the black spot parasite will disappear.) This organism does little harm to the fish. The main problem associated with black-spot is the unsightly appearance it may cause. Skinning infected fish will remove most black spots.

The life cycle of the parasite is quite complex. A fish-eating bird (typically a great blue heron or kingfisher) eats an infected fish. The black spot or worms are released and grow to sexual maturity in the bird's intestine. The adult worms pass eggs with the bird's droppings. When the eggs reach water, they hatch into free-swimming organisms which then penetrate snails for further development. Finally, after leaving the snails they burrow into the skin of fish and form a cyst. The fish surrounds the cyst with black pigment that gives the disease its name. If an infected fish is consumed by a bird, the cycle repeats itself


This is spot on. Ha no pun intended... When I bought my pond back in 09 my LMB, and GSF has these black specs all over. Fast forward after stocking RES, 2 years later I haven't seen another spec one! You got to break the chain and that's exactly what the RES do!!

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Fenders is usually pretty good about placing the correct number and size of fish in each boxed oxygenated bag pkg. Be sure to let them know of how long the trip home will take put then in the air conditioned car on the way home not in the sun. Ask about a live arrival guarantee. I have never seen black spot on Fenders fish which are usually pretty 'clean'. They usually have RES in the waters where they grow the larger fish. This eliminates snails and most fish parasites. Often fish farms sell fish on the small side of the advertised size range. Fenders fish are usually in the middle sizes of the advertised size. I have been pretty happy with their quality of fish over the years. They strive to maintain their good reputation. If you but the larger BG from them,,,,post some pics of the fish for others to see.

I am curious/nosey what they will say about using mostly males for your project. Don't forge to ask them about it.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/29/16 02:48 PM.

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Bill, will do.

Will the RES eventually take care of the Japanese Trap door snails that came in my fish package?

Are the clams a problem like the snails?

I don't care if they have shells that are sharp and cut feet. The area that I am in is covered with flint and if you are familiar with flint you know it is sharp.

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RES should eat the immature trap door snails. Once the snails grow to over 1/2" long, I think they are in a size refuge regarding RES predation. I've never dealt directly with trap door snails and don't want to. It is my understanding they are a nuisance and considered invasive, however as a positive, they eat attached algae.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/29/16 07:56 PM.

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Oh well. The RES won't run out of good food. Maybe I will look up some recipes myself. It is my understanding that they do not multiply as fast as other snails.

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