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I am looking for some information to help me make a educated decision on how to manage my new pond.
1st,how inferior are the second generation of hybrid bluegills? 2nd, How many generations does it take for them to revert back to green sunfish or bluegill?
Here is why I'm asking that question.
I built a new 2.5 acre pond last year. in September I stocked bluegill and Channel Cats from the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife. I bought what was supposed to be 200 redear sunfish from someone else. this past May I stocked 400 largemouth bass fingerlings.
Turns out my redear where hybrid bluegills. They are 7-8 in long now and I'm seeing some about 3-4 in long just like them.And I am seeing some of the big ones and small ones still nesting! I am concerned that an inferior fish will take over my pond!I have read everything I could find about hybrid bluegill but nothing answer those 2 questions.
Thanks for any info, Kevin

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Excellent questions. See the information we have about this in the lengthy thread about hybrid bluegill (HGB). There is a post or link about FX generation HBG. See info from member called Meadowlark. He was following sequential or generational HBG in his ponds. He reported still good growth of FX HBG after a few years. However, he no longer posts on this forum.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256325#Post256325

I have a couple of local ponds that were stocked with just HBG as the only panfish and never restocked. From my experience it take numerous years (15-20) for later FX generations to look a lot like GSF. Faithful reporting members here have found that if the predation pressure is always 'strong', HBG are periodically added, and pure BG are also present the GSF revert problem is a lot less likely to occur and is not real noticeable or non-existent.

One problem is this forum is not real old so many do not have lots of long term experience with FX generations of HBG. Since we now have your baseline fish information, If you periodically come back here and report your results your information will definitely help other members.

Here are some of the links from the HBG Archive thread dealing with F generations of HBG.
Dealing with offspring aka F2, F3, F4, etc. generations from HBG:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=332398#Post332398

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=349990#Post349990

More FX discussion.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404439#Post404439


Last edited by ewest; 06/27/16 01:49 PM.

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Can you post pics ? If you put in BG first you may be ok as they may out produce the HBG. How many BG did the state put in?
















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Here is a funny one for you. You have HBG you are trying to get rid of. I have mostly pure BG and am actively saving my naturally occurring hybrids being produced in my sediment pond and putting them in my main pond to increase the HBG numbers.

After trying to get rid of the few HBG I had in the main pond, decided I like them a lot and now trying to increase numbers.

Go figure.

My goals (panfish fishery) are likely different than yours though.


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One man's trash is another man's treasure.


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"I was there, during the HBG renaissance of 2016......."






And I was smiling.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I have been unable to post photos. the hybrids that were supposed to be redear stocked two weeks before the bluegill were stocked. I stocked 1000 bluegill. wiTh in one week of putting in the supposed to be redears I seen them on nest close to the bank these fish were only 2 inches long at the time. this spring and summer I see the big ones and little ones on Nest all the time. but I do not see any fry in the water.this is supposed to be a bass and bluegill pond. And the redear to control the grubs from getting in my bass.

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If your pond does not have any Redear in it, and you wanted them in there, I would start calling around to see who has them now and stock them asap. If you wait, the LMB will be larger and you will have to stock advanced sizes of RES to avoid being eaten by the LMB.

You say you are seeing both large and small HBG on the nests. Are you positive that they are all HBG and there are no GSF mixed in with them (the smaller ones)?

At a stocking rate of 160 LMB per acre and only 400 BG per acre, I am assuming that your goal for the pond is a large Bluegill pond, correct? How many CC did you stock?

To post a photo you have to use an on-line photo storage place like photobucket then you can link and post the photos here. There are instructions on how to do that in the archives. Here are several instructions or methods of how to post photos on this forum.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92443#Post92443

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/28/16 08:18 AM.

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120 channel cats . The pond is new and no outside fish can get in. The small fish on nest look exactly like the big ones.same color same shape. The number of bluegill, catfish, and bass was decided by the kyfw ( new pond program )the redear (hybrid) was chose by me.
The pond is nowhere near over populated yet I just did not plan to have hybrids in it because it's supposed to be a bass bluegill pond. I love the hybrids for now just afraid of the negative impact later. Everything I read says hybrid bluegills are for hybrid bluegill ponds and should be less than 1 acre and add a few bass to control population. What's gonna happen to my 2.5 acre bass bluegill pond because of them?

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7"

Last edited by Callahan; 06/28/16 09:48 AM.
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After reading everyone else responses, another question comes to my mind. Is there any possibility that some fish from other water could have contaminated your pond? GSF can come down stream from the overflow of a pond above you or they can swim upstream up your overflow in water just a couple inches deep. Is there any nearby source where trash fish could have entered your pond perhaps during a heavy rain?

Esshup mentioned GSF in his post and I have seen 3" GSF making nests in 6" of water.

Sure would be helpful if you could get some pictures of your fish posted to be sure what you are actually looking at.

Edit: Great! You were posting the picture while I was typing. Looks like a very nice HBG to me. I would like that fish in my pond! Now if you could catch some of those 3" fish that are nesting and get a picture...............

Last edited by snrub; 06/28/16 09:45 AM.

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My guess is the 3-4 inch fish you see are BG (not HBG) and in a new pond they can and will spawn at 4 inches. See if you can get pics of the HBG and the 3-4 inch fish. It would help if you provided the type , size , number and stock date of each species stocked.
















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To sample your smaller YOY fish, BG, HBG and GSF will readily go into a baited minnow trap. Most minnow traps have a 1" opening and you can get fish up to 2-3" to go in. If you enlarge the opening to 1.5-2" then you can get some larger fish to go in. Shallow water with the top of the trap anywhere from just being covered to about a foot deep. Use dog food chunks, wadded up bread or fish pellet food for bait. Position trap horizontal to shore line. Check 15 to 30 minutes after setting it in the water.


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Here's one about 5"

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I had to go fishing .Here's a small one. I'm not seeing any much smaller than that.

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Where did you get those hybrids? Not HBG IMO.


Georgia Giants from various PM members photos and threads.










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Last edited by ewest; 06/28/16 01:05 PM.















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Allen 's fish farm. Allen ky
I can't get in touch with them this year. Phone number is disconnected

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Last edited by ewest; 06/28/16 01:12 PM.















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Callahan's pictured fish do look similar to Georgia Giant hybrids. They are likely some other cross than the normal BG X GSF hybrid. It would be interesting to know what the parents were.


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That's the fish truck. I don't Facebook. The phone number I have don't work. I met them at my local southern states

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Do you have any pics of the BG ?
















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This pic is from early may.
I don't see much of them
They were barely more than fry when I released them

Last edited by Callahan; 06/28/16 04:41 PM.
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This was the redear /hybrid the day I got them from the fish truck

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First above is a BG.
Neither of those fish look like the one you posted earlier .

Last edited by ewest; 06/28/16 09:47 PM.















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Ewest, a client put some GG in his pond a few years back and he has one of those "fish that ran into a wall" swimming around in his pond too. It's about 10" long.


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If these are GG ,how's the future generations turn out?

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No member here regularly posts their progress with GGiant HBG because few have them since most think the hype was mostly dependably bigger than the fish. It will be particularly interesting to see how your HBG offspring grow in the future. You will help all of us here and yourself if you periodically come back here, post some pics, and keep us informed as to the progress of your particular strain of hybridBG. They appear to be nice fish with potential. It will be very interesting to see how they perform in your pond. Keep feeding them good quality pellets so they grow the best they can be.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/01/16 08:53 PM.

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Hope these really are redear this time! Just bought100 of these for the pond.

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Look to be redears to my eye balls.


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Not sure what you have there. Some RE traits.

See pic below for a RE.
















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Very close to RES and could be RES, although they look very thin bodied, somewhat stunted, and you need to fatten the up. Where did you get them? Post some pics of them in the fall or next year to show us the progress you have with them.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/17/16 12:27 PM.

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I wonder if there can be regional differences in the appearances of RES?

Mine do not always look exactly like everyone else and even the Kansas sourced RES can look different than my Oklahoma sourced RES. Some of that may be the pond they come out of though, because my sediment pond goes through periods of turbidity and the RES there tend to appear very washed out in appearance.


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No doubt that RES exhibit local adaptation as do most fish. Catch them in a year and see if they have pharyngeal teeth and check the gill rakers as well as external features. Those above show several RES traits but their condition is poor .
















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These fish came from Arkansas pond stockers fish truck. Met them at my local Southern states.

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For comparison, here are some I trapped out of my forage pond today. I would not swear they are 100% RES because every now and then I get one that looks like it has some GSF in it. Really hard for me to tell for sure with these small fish. As they grow a little it should get more obvious.

This pond (supposedly) has only RES, GSH and FHM in it. So they should be pure RES. But I also trapped a fingerling GSF out of this pond last week. I suspect it swam up the overflow tube from my main pond during a recent high water event, but I will never know for sure.

I do not worry so much about it because I would not mind having RES/GSF hybrids. But this pond was supposed to raise fingerling RES to put in my main pond to increase their numbers there.

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Is it just me or do Callahan's RES eyes look kind of big ewest? Like they have not grown to potential. Makes me wonder if they were seined from a wild population.

Last edited by snrub; 07/17/16 10:48 PM.

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It's not just you. They do look a little behind the curve to me also.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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This one came from my neibors pond 2 weeks ago. It is from the same supplier but he bought his last fall.

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That fish directly above appears to be a pure strain RES. Your fish after you fatten them up could look like this next year. The thin bodied RES were probably just too crowded in a grow out pond with too little food which can be common occurrence for some fish farms.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/18/16 09:56 AM.

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Callahan the first batch of RES I got from Dunn's (that went into my forage pond) looked pretty rough also. The second batch they gave me as replacements looked much better but were smaller. If you saw my thread on my forage pond I posted pictures of some of the adults from those two stockings and they looked like your picture of your neighbors fish. So they turned out alright.

As has been discussed on this forum many times, RES are hard to feed train so the fish farms may have more trouble keeping them than the BG. I know in my sediment pond I put in 175 RES and 100 CNBG expecting to get a lot of reproduction of both to add to my main pond. Well I wish I would have put the 175 RES and 25 CNBG because I have CNBG fingerlings running out my ears compared to only a few RES fingerlings.

Your RES will probably do fine. Mine turned out ok, Just not as reproductive as my BG.

Last edited by snrub; 07/18/16 10:58 AM.

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Last pic is a RES IMO.

Yes big eyes like that are an indicator of poor health/condition/stunting, etc as Bill stated above. Also the with drawn stomach is also an indicator of poor feeding.
















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Thanks for all the responses.

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Originally Posted By: ewest
Last pic is a RES IMO.

Yes big eyes like that are an indicator of poor health/condition/stunting, etc as Bill stated above. Also the with drawn stomach is also an indicator of poor feeding.


Quick question: If scrawny, underfed bass don't ever totally make up for lost growth, what about BG and RES?


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Same result. The question is at what point in the process does this become a certain result and to what extent.

Last edited by ewest; 07/18/16 04:17 PM.















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I have both HBG and BG in my pond. As expected, the HBG have grown faster and seem more aggressive than the BG. Will the HBG dominate the spawning beds and mate with the female BG creating a lot of HBG x BG? Anybody have pictures of HBG x BG? Is this a desirable cross if the goal is for just a good fishing pond?

Last edited by Bill D.; 04/14/17 08:33 AM. Reason: Typo

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I have both HBG and BG in my pond. As expected, the HBG have grown faster and seem more aggressive than the BG. Will the HBG dominate the spawning beds and mate with the female BG creating a lot of HBG x BG? Anybody have pictures of HBG x BG? Is this a desirable cross if the goal is for just a good fishing pond?


I managed to find this old thread that poses the same question, as well as others, but the inputs back from members don't really directly answer the questions of HBG dominance of spawning beds or is a HBG x BG a desirable cross. Anybody have any experience or thoughts?

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=10878

Last edited by Bill D.; 04/14/17 12:26 PM.

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HBG faster growth is relative. It is not genetic IMO. For example if you have a pond of all male BG and one of HBG you will get just as good of growth over time from the male BG as the HBG. Why? Because the HBG are 97% +- males. Male BG in a male only pond will use their energy to get big because they do not have to divert lots of energy to nest building and fry guarding. The reported evidence indicates that HBG grow somewhat faster early on because of their large mouth size but that edge quickly recedes because their metabolism and internal morphology is similar to BG who are larger and GSF which are smaller. The same principles apply - energy in = energy used + growth. There is a lot we don't know about both but nothing I have seen indicates that HBG digest and use more energy or have more efficient metabolisms than BG males. HBG are more aggressive which is a plus for fishing but in nature can be a minus due to increased risk of death by predation.

I would not be concerned about HBG taking over BG nest sites if the numbers are equal. There is a lot about BG nesting/reproductive behavior that favors BG males. I have not seen any material indicating if HBG inherit the knowledge/instinct of BG or GSF as to nesting. Interesting question.

Last edited by ewest; 04/14/17 03:44 PM.















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Thanks Ewest,

I think BG males will eventually out grow HBG but it does seem to me that in the first 2 or 3 years the HBG are heavier per inch than BG. Kind of like comparing a heavy weight boxer to a middle weight of equal height.

It is interesting to me that as HBG continue to gain popularity, more studies haven't been done on their behavior and impact on the pond ecosystem.

Last edited by Bill D.; 04/14/17 07:02 PM.

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There is a huge absence of info on all lepomis but especially the hybrids. We know more about BG than all the rest.

Last edited by ewest; 04/14/17 09:14 PM.















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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I have both HBG and BG in my pond. As expected, the HBG have grown faster and seem more aggressive than the BG. Will the HBG dominate the spawning beds and mate with the female BG creating a lot of HBG x BG? Anybody have pictures of HBG x BG? Is this a desirable cross if the goal is for just a good fishing pond?


It would seem to me mother nature has a way of species preferring their own species. Thus the hybrids and offspring of hybrids are the exception rather than the rule.

If this was not the case, a mixed species pond would tend to just become mostly hybrids over time.

It seems to me the danger of creating too many hybrids from offspring of hybrids would be minimal.

Now I have a sediment pond that produced quite a number of hybrids. But in this case there were a very small number of GSF with limited opportunity to mate with their own kind. They basically were forced to mate with either CNBG or RES.


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Originally Posted By: snrub
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I have both HBG and BG in my pond. As expected, the HBG have grown faster and seem more aggressive than the BG. Will the HBG dominate the spawning beds and mate with the female BG creating a lot of HBG x BG? Anybody have pictures of HBG x BG? Is this a desirable cross if the goal is for just a good fishing pond?






Now I have a sediment pond that produced quite a number of hybrids. But in this case there were a very small number of GSF with limited opportunity to mate with their own kind. They basically were forced to mate with either CNBG or RES.


And this is how a great many hybrid fish are created naturally. Lack of spawning partners and reduced visual cues (because of different conditions and/or circumstances), lead to crosses.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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