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So, I am new to Pond Boss and new to pond management. Last summer I put in a pond at my home away from home in Ohio. I stocked it this spring with the Zett's new pond package. Everything appears to be going good but I have some questions to see if it could be better. On my last visit I noticed that the little BG appeared to be making nests and trying to spawn. This surprised me. I have read suggestions on keeping some big bull BG in the pond to encourage smaller BG to focus on growing in order to compete with the larger dominant fish. Should I consider putting in a few mature BG so my small ones do less spawning and more growing or will this upset the echo system that was started with the new pond stocking package?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Kirk

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I put about 20 mature BG in (mixed sexes) last winter, after first stocking fingerlings (1-2 inch) in mid autumn. The big bull BG made most of the nests, but spawned with big females and small ones alike this past spring. I didn't see any of my stockers making nests, only the mature BG.

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Thanks for the info John. I can't wait to hear other inputs. I will be out there over the 4th and have considered putting in some big BG. The reality is that once they are in I cannot take it back so I want to do it with both eyes wide open.

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How big is the pond? You may have overstocked a new small pond.

If your this spring's newly stocker small BG are tying to spawn I suspect they are likely somewhat stunted from being over crowded at the fish farm. Fast growing BG in a balanced situation often do not stock until they are around 7.5"-8". Many here think the Zetts 'new pond package' is sales over-kill to naïve new pond owners. Items in your "Pond Package" that you probably don't want are in order of importance: trap door snails, clams, algae eaters (Israeli or koi) and Daphnia. Snails can greatly increase change of fish parasites and trap doors get too big for fish to eat, mortality of dead clam shells can cut the feet of swimmers. Algae eaters when large 15"+ will cause water turbidity working the bottom for foods, the resulting mud clouds will get mixed especially if the pond has aeration. The (carp)algae eaters do not really control algae by eating it but primarily by making the water turbid and plants do not grow well due to lack of light penetration. Turbidity lowers plankton productivity and resulting natural foods in the pond. Daphnia do not need to be stocked into most all new ponds because Daphnia are almost always one of the first zooplankters to naturally colonize a new pond.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/25/16 07:43 PM.

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The pond is between a 1/2 and 3/4 acre. The fish were put in as fingerlings so I would have a hard time believing that they were stunted from the fish farm.

Pond is about 15' deep and has 1 air diffuser at about 8'.

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Kirk, what size were the fingerlings when stocked? What size are the ones now that are indicating spawning behavior? Texas BG can and often do spawn at 3.5 to 4 inches. Anything smaller than that will more than likely be stunted.


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Dave,
They were probably 1-1.5 inches in March as fingerlings. They are probably less than 3" now. My LMB have gone from about 2.5 to 7-8 inches. Based on some reading I have done I am thinking that putting in a few (10-15 8"+) mature BG may encourage these little guys to quit thinking about spawning and start growing. But don't want to disrupt the establishment of the food chain.

Will the larger BG devastate the forage fish (FHM, Shiners, Ruby Reds) I am seeing tons of new fry around pond.

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Larger BG will have little impact on the forage fish if the BG are fed pellets. You would be wise to collect larger pellet eating BG from a pond owner that feeds the fish. BG at 3" or less that are spawning is not a good thing for goals of growing large BG. The fingerling LMB that are now 7"-8" are the wolves of the forage fish and have likely consumed most of the 1000 FHM that were originally stocked to grow to their current 7"-8" size. These bass with ample forage could be another 3"-4" long by fall if forage is adequate. These LMB at 100/ac will spawn in Apr-May of 2017 and their offspring will likely devastate the meager forage provided by the Zetts philosophy.

Our philosophy here is the best way to grow a great fishery is to stock the forage in year one, allow it to exponentially multiply where the pond is full of forage fish, and then in fall or next spring stock the predators.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/26/16 09:01 AM.

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Bill,
I always appreciate input but I will have to say that I cannot find anything in your responses to help me move forward. The question that I have posed is what should I do now not what I should have done this past spring.

I don't have any aspirations of growing record book fish. Just would like to have a visibly good looking pond to relax around and enjoy pulling some nice fish out every now and then.

Thanks,
Kirk

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I stocked CC, RES, BG, FHM, Gambusia in Fall of 2015, and some brooder BG in winter 2015. They already spawned twice. I plan to stock about 20-25 LMB fingerlings in May of 2017. The pond is 1/4 acre and 10.5 ft deep at normal pool. I am actively feeding the BG and CC. There is already a huge population of FHM.

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Originally Posted By: Kirk B
Bill,
I always appreciate input but I will have to say that I cannot find anything in your responses to help me move forward. The question that I have posed is what should I do now not what I should have done this past spring.

I don't have any aspirations of growing record book fish. Just would like to have a visibly good looking pond to relax around and enjoy pulling some nice fish out every now and then.

Thanks,
Kirk


All righty then.

Once a male bluegill becomes sexually mature, his growth slows down. And while they enjoy indeterminate growth, once mature they cannot go back and undo what's done. If it were me, I would listen to Bill and source some feed trained larger BG. Yes, they will feed on your forage base, but not near to the extent that your LMB will, have already done, and will do with increasing gusto once they begin to recruit. That's the reason for supplementally feeding pellets to the BG, to encourage growth.

Bluegills are the backbone of the food chain in many ponds, and have a much better chance of establishing a residual population than the minnow species you listed. Bluegills smaller than 3" on nests is not a good thing, but as you pointed out the mistake has already been made. Your choices now are to nuke the whole thing and start fresh with a better understanding of how this stuff works, or make do with what you have. Go ahead and add your bluegills. Will they affect what you have achieved thus far? Probably. But if what you have now is already sub-par, then what's the harm?

Be careful where you get those bigger bluegill....make sure they are northern strain bluegills, NOT one of the multitude of extremely similar in appearance but still not bluegills....you may make things worse. Also, for your strategy to work, you really need male bluegills, not females. How confident are you in your abilities to accurately sex these fish?

One more thing, moving fish from one BOW to another is a great way to inoculate your pond with parasites, and possibly unwanted aquatic weeds. Be vigilant.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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My answers were there, you did not either comprehend or recognize the responses. "If you add adult BG use pellet trained fish." To keep your bass growing well the rest of this year and next year, each of them needs to have about 0.5lb of small fish thus my comment "These bass with ample forage could be another 3"-4" long by fall if forage is adequate" i.e. 100 bass x 0.5 lb = 50lbs of forage. Your stocking is/was significantly short on forage fish for continued good bass growth. Focus on enhancing your forage fish base if good growing fish is your goal.

Good answers have been adequately provided by JohnF and sprkplug. Lots of fish growing info has been posted in the past threads of growing big BG info in the Common Pond Q&A Archives.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=22&page=1
Additional to sprkplug's reply, If your add stock adult BG are eating pellet food they have a lot less or almost no desire to catch & eat small fish.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/26/16 01:57 PM.

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First off, let me apologize for any tone that may have been perceived in one of my previous responses. I respect and appreciate all inputs. Even the ones that initially may damage my pride, they sink in over time.

- moving forward....

How many male BG would you guys recommend? I currently do not know how to distinguish the males from females. I do have a nearby pond that I could pull them from but that sounds like it is not recommended. There is a fishery about 45 minutes in Coshocton, Ohio. They advertise large BG. I could call and see if 1. I can buy exclusively males and 2. check to see if they are food trained. Of course that means I need to find a feeder and source of food. I am certainly not against this since I put a lot toward feeding my resident deer herd.

Should I take the opportunity to build the forage base and put in more minnows? How many and what types?

What would be the recommended feed rate for my startup pond? Any recommendations on feeders. I would need one that would work from a bank as I do not currently have any piers or structures overhanging the water.

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Would catching and removing some of the LMB help with the situation?

I turned my old pond around that was over run with GSF by removing GSF and adding 4-6" BG from my main pond.

I believe my BG have the upper hand now by adding the larger BG.

A similar plan might work for you Kirk B. Only in your case, remove LMB and add larger BG.

Last edited by snrub; 06/26/16 02:29 PM.

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The larger BG I stocked last December were not feed trained initially. The small BG were feed trained. The large ones have now become feed trained, likely by interacting with the smaller ones. The large males will have brownish orange, not yellow, bellies. They will also have a "helmet head". The spawning age females have yellow bellies and slimmer (more pointy) heads. That's how I distinguish them.

I have not invested in a feeder. I am retired and enjoy feeding by hand, twice a day. I have some albino CC and BG that might take food from my hand. I am going to try that when the water comes up again so I can reach it from the dock. In my 1/4 acre pond, each feeding lately consists of about 11 ounces of mixed Optimal BG food and Cargill 36% feed, for a total of 22 oz per day, dry weight. They clean this up in about three minutes each feeding. It's getting hot and I don't want to risk overfeeding.

Last edited by John F; 06/26/16 03:44 PM. Reason: added feeding paragraph
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This time of year in Ohio, there will likely be male bluegill guarding nests somewhere close by, should you decide to transplant some. Females only visit the nest for a few minutes, so if you see a lone BG standing pat over a depression in the pond bottom, it is probably male.

Course' it might be a male Pumpkinseed, Greenie, Redear (good choice also), Longear, or a hybrid of any the above. Identification is very important.

Welcome to PondBoss, good to have you! smile


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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It is unlikely that Fenders in Coshocton will have large BG this time of year. I have known them well since the 1980's. Fall is when they normally have the large 8" BG that can be reliably sexually recognized. Plus few if any fish farms want to sell fish when water is 80F due to difficulty of handing fish in warm water. I doubt that Fenders will sort males from the stock, plus they will likely not agree that you need mostly males to suppress your small BG spawning activity. IMO they will 'push' mixed sex adults or 5"-7" fish.

Few of your fingerling fish will eat the standard size fish pellets. Buying 50 lbs of fish food now with just your 'package' fingerlings could be IMO a waste of money since those fingerlings purchased will not eat much food from now till late fall. They can survive okay until fall or spring on natural pond foods. One generally should not hold fish food for longer than 8-10 months before it is all fed. I doubt that you received pure all BG fingerlings from Zetts. Don't be surprised if you have a few GSF or hybridBG show up the angler catches in a few years.

Snrub and JohnF have good options. Removing bass will lessen the predation pressure on your forage fish. Although you will likely need good predation pressure of the spawn from your current BG nests. Yes - Often large BG will self-train to pellets but getting them now from a fish farm will likely be a problem. If the adult BG eat some fish fry that is a good thing in your current situation. Since you don't live at the pond, and at this point of mid summer, your simplest and easiest option is probably to work with your current fish package and then in fall assess your situation, then maybe make some changes or adjust in spring.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/26/16 04:14 PM.

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It is likely hard for an owner of a small pond to need or utilize a full bag of Aquamax 400 in a years time, but the small BG just go nuts over that stuff. I have them lined up waiting at the banks edge waiting for it. No official training schools or courses needed.

I'm no expert at training fish, but If someone told me my job was to train a bunch of sunfish that had never seen feed, the tiny pellets of the AM400 would be my go to feed to try and train with. The little BG go nuts over it, the bigger BG will come in close for it, and even the 2-3# CC will come in and try to take it away from the small BG if I hold still so as not to scare them off. Hard for me to believe a 3# CC would even bother with those tiny pellets, but they will just open their mouth on the surface and hoover them up.

I think very small pellets would be a key to feed training small fish.

Last edited by snrub; 06/26/16 05:00 PM.

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I might as well go all in here and give the total package that I used. I promise to brace myself for the replies but don't need a whippin just some advice and options for correcting any big issues and way to move forward.

100 LMB
500 Red and Blue Gill
100 YP
100 black and white crappie
100 CC
100 Breeder Shiners
100 Rosey Reds
1000 FHM
100 snails
100 bull frog tadpoles
100 crayfish
10 Koi
1 Quart Daphnia

I probably should also mention that I have introduced water lilies and several other plants around ponds edge. I am really looking for a diverse pond environment an if we can have some fun catching fish at the same time then that would be great.

Maybe Bill's advise is the one to go with. Wait till fall and reassess the situation.

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Not meaning to whip up on you but:
Crappie in a pond are bad, especially white crappie. I wouldn't want more than one Koi either. LMB should not be stocked until the year after FHM and and BG have first spawned. At any rate, 100 LMB is too many for your pond size.

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100 catfish is also way too many for a non-production general recreation pond. This number of CC in a 0.7 ac pond will tend to cause turbidity when they are 16" and begin to dig areas for spawn cavities. CC could have easily been omitted from the package based on your stated goals. Frogs then tadpoles will move in on their own natural migration tendency. Expect the 10 koi when 15"+ to keep your warm season pond with a visibility of 8"-16". Two koicarp would have been plenty for 0.7 ac. When stocked with 100 fingerling bass the 1000FHM(2-3lb) should have been closer to 5000 to 10000(10-25 lbs).

Since you have 100 crappie you should study the posts in the crappie archive thread. White crappie do perform better than black crappie when water is turbid (12"-18")which should prevail after 4-6 yrs.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92447#Post92447

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/26/16 07:22 PM.

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We once put four wild caught crappie (all females about 10") into a small, semi weedy farm pond of about 0.2 acres. My cousins caught them out while visiting about three years later, and they were all close to three pounds. It can be done successfully if one is VERY careful, or just lucky.

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Kirk I am not an expert, but what I would do if it were my pond and that is what had been stocked, I would start feeding and fishing. I would take out every crappie, bass and catfish I caught, till I removed enough to where the experts on this forum think is the amount that would have been best to initially stock. Fish traps might help in the removal also.

With a half to three quarters acre pond it is unlikely you could possibly catch enough of those three species to be too many. So pick up some small lures/bait/hooks appropriate for the current size fish, and fish away to your hearts content. That is what I would do. I have actually caught adult FHM on a #10 cricket hook so you can catch some pretty small fish via hook and line. Small hook and small bait. I might also put in about 10-15 nice 6-8" BG from another good water source. Since I am not that good at sexing fish I would not worry about it. Just pick nice looking, healthy fish large enough so the predators can not eat them.

That would be my non-expert opinion of how to move forward, for what it is worth. Oh, and if you do not already have it add aeration. Aeration will let you push the feed limit/pond carrying capacity more than you could without it. That will be important with a heavy fish load and will allow you to feed your BG to help them get ahead of the predators better with larger spawns.

Last edited by snrub; 06/26/16 10:55 PM.

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Kirk, do you plan on swimming in the pond also? If so, Daphnia are also known as "water fleas", which cause, "swimmer's itch".
EDIT: Snails (mollusks) are the vector for cercidia, not Daphnia (crustacean).

Honestly, I would strongly suggest swallowing your pride early, killing everything in the pond with Hydrated Lime, and restocking, without crappie, daphnia, bullfrogs and definitely no Koi.

I would even let the Hydrated Lime kill all the added plants as well, unless you KNOW the lilies are non-invasive. (many garden pond lily packages include spatterdock).

I suggest killing the pond because the loss of what you have spent now, could be but a fraction of what you may need to "correct" things in a year. Reading what you want from your pond, I can virtually guarantee that you will not be happy with what will be happening from what was stocked.

Last edited by Rainman; 06/27/16 09:54 AM.


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Kirk, I personally believe that you got hosed by Zetts. But, it is important to remember that they are only in the business of selling fish and other "stuff"; not looking out for your interests.

You are over stocked. Lots of people make that mistake. I did when I stocked my first pond.

Since raising and caring for fish is very regional, I won't give advice on what to do. I'll leave that to Sparky, Rainman and Cody.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 06/27/16 06:32 AM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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