Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations ID on this fish?

Caught this in the pond yesterday. It has some different characteristics (or a combination of) from my other species. Any ideas? They appear to have pulled off a spawn as well. Caught some 1 1/2"er's in the minnow trap.

Hybrid bluegill.

Looks like it's got some warmouth, RES, BG....

Mr Cody what do you think of this fish?

My guess is mostly RES

Hard to tell with the light reflection if it has the mottled cheeks of a RES.

The smaller they are, the more the red/orange on the opercular tab looks like a dot rather than a band. This one seems to not have a well developed orange tab. On my very small RES coming out of my forage pond that I trap in minnow traps (1-2" long) almost need a magnifying glass to see the orange tab.

But Shorty has seen a lot more RES than I have, so he is probably right.

Maybe some OSS in the mix.

??? It has a pretty large mouth. Any warmouth in the pond that could create this hybrid? Gill flap and vertical bars appear to have some BG influence. What sunfish types are present?

Bill,
The pond filled overnight from a nearby creek during a big 7"+ rain when it was built in August of '14. CNBG,RES, and FHM were originally stocked shortly thereafter. But, I have caught and removed hundreds of GSF last year. I also have caught and removed some Dollar Sunfish as well. I have not stocked any Warmouth, nor have I caught any, but I guess there is a possibility that they could be present.
Charlie

That paper thin mouth shouts crappie X ? to me. Do crappie cross?

Bite your tongue!

Bill D.,
Maybe my old Falstaff drinking buddy, Pat W. snuck some in on me...make my world interesting. What do you think?

Hey Charlie,

You never know what I guy that hunts hogs from his bedroom will do, especially after a half dozen Falstaffs!

I caught one identical to that in my pond this spring. It was almost 11 inches long and I had no idea what it was. I remove all hybrid bluegill but I put it back hoping I would catch it again just to see how big it gets.

You may have a point. Here lately he's been catching bullheads in his pond...I may have to watch him close or I'll have a mess of those as well....I can't get on him too bad, he gave me a 70 qt. ice chest of deboned pork yesterday for sausage making.

Poppy,
Nice!!! If you catch the fish again, take a pic and post it. I'd like to see that big rascal.

I may have slipped a few crappie in there and now he has bluecrapp,gillcrapp, or crappears..... YA just don't know

Bill I got my eyes on ya

Almost looks like a Rock Bass to me, but different from the ones we see around here. The colored eye kind of makes me think it is possible.

http://www.vtfishandwildlife.com/fish/fishing_opportunities/sportfish_of_vermont/panfish/

I understand that they are similar. Warmouth have 3 spines in the anal fin and rock bass have 5 or 6.

Rock Bass, Ambloplites rupestris


Physical Description:
· Compressed, stocky body
· Large, terminal mouth
· Dark-edged anal fin
· Large cheek scales
· Rounded pectoral fin
· Almost straight-edged tail fin
· Red eye
· Olive-brown peppering on body
· 5 anal fins


Warmouth, Lepomis gulosus


Physical Description:
· Deep, compressed body
· Black opercular spot
· Large, terminal mouth
· Large eye
· Tail fin lobes rounded
· Pectoral fin rounded
· Dark stripes on cheek
· Dark mottling on body
· Some mottling on fins

I'm going with BG x warmouth
I know a pond full of them, I'll
Post pics soon

There have been noted natural BG X WM crosses.
Rock Bass X BG are a lot more iffy. See

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=34231&Number=449213#Post449213

Very informative link....thanks, Eric!

Sure looks like some Crappie in it to me also. I have never seen a Crappie cross personally. (except a Bullhead/Crappie cross known as a Bullcrap which we all occasionally run into).

+1 on the Bullcrap....do you know Bob O?

I think if we put all our knowledge about crosses aside and showed only an outline of the fish vs a crappie, except for that chin, folks would say it was a crappie.

Where do you fellows see crappie in the photo? I see only an underweight lepomid cross.

IF I caught that around here I would call it a rock bass but I am no expert.

Sparkplug,
Yes, I noticed several that were underweight this summer. I have the same GSF problem that I had last year. I had removed 300, but that is no where near what needs to come out. I guess I'll have to get back to fishing and remove some more.

Don't think that is a crappie.

Black Crappie, Pomoxis nigromaculatus


Physical Description:
· Very compressed body
· Upturned nose and mouth
· Rounded pectoral fin
· Slightly notched tail fin
· Anal and dorsal fins nearly the same length
· Large eye
· Speckled body
· Dorsal, anal, and tail fins black with white spots
· Length of dorsal fin base equal to distance from first dorsal spine to eye
· Head and side of body silver with dark marks

Georgia Giant Runt

Isn't that an oxymoron??? You need to come and clear up my water....

Stickem the small GSF go into minnow traps with bait really well and the advantage of catching them small is they are out of the pond before they eat a lot of groceries (taking them away from other desirable fish) to grow.

Set three or four minnow traps and you can get hundreds out pretty quick.

You can trap the next size bigger if you enlarge the opening of the trap (normally 1") to about 1 1/2 to 2" but the fish will eat the food and come right back out. So when I use my modified traps I bait them and check them in about 15 minutes. Check them before all the bait is eaten up. I move lots of CNBG from my sediment pond to my main pond that way too. If you have about 4 or 5 traps you can just about stay busy as by the time you dump and bait the last trap the first one is ready to check again.

GSF go in traps really well. They tend to hang out in shallow water and are real chow hounds, so they go in after the food well.

Get out a hair dryer and get me some solid ground there!

Give me a week without rain...then, it's on!!!

Thought I would put this lepomis traits here and in the sunfish archive. From Wisc Fish an outstanding site with great work. It has pics of the traits and pics of some crosses.

http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/home/Default.aspx?tabid=605&FishID=21




Compare Similar Species


Lateral Scales

Bass, Rock 39-43
Bluegill 39-45
Pumpkinseed 38-43
Sunfish, Green 44-51
Sunfish, Longear 34-38
Sunfish, Orangespotted 36-41
Warmouth 36-40

Opercular Flap Color

Bass, Rock Solid dark
Bluegill Solid dark
Pumpkinseed Dark with light spot at tip
Sunfish, Green Dark with light margin
Sunfish, Longear Dark with light margin
Sunfish, Orangespotted Dark with light margin
Warmouth Dark with light margin

Gill Rakers

Bass, Rock 7-10, long and thin
Bluegill 13-16, moderately long
Pumpkinseed 9-12, short and thick
Sunfish, Green 11-14, long and thin
Sunfish, Longear 9-11, short and thick
Sunfish, Orangespotted 10-15, long and thin
Warmouth 9-12, moderately long

Pectoral Fin

Bass, Rock Short, rounded
Bluegill Long, pointed
Pumpkinseed Long, pointed
Sunfish, Green Moderately long, rounded
Sunfish, Longear Short, rounded or blunt point
Sunfish, Orangespotted Long, rounded or blunt point
Warmouth Moderately long, rounded

Pigment Pattern on Sides and Soft Dorsal Fin

Bass, Rock Sides brown solid color or with dark mottling or many indistinct spots; fin mottled and/or spotted
Bluegill Sides dark or silver blue or bluish-olive, solid color or with dark vertical bars, sometimes fine irregular dark blue spots; fin solid, often with large diffuse spot at base
Pumpkinseed Sides olive or yellow-olive, with many irregular yellow-orange spots or blotches and sometimes faint vertical bars; fin solid or faint spots/mottling
Sunfish, Green Sides yellow or blue-green, with solid color, dark mottling, faint light spots or faint dark bars; fin dusky, spotted or with dark blotch at base
Sunfish, Longear Sides dark bluish-olive, with solid color or light irregular spots or blotches/mottling; fin solid or faint spots/mottling
Sunfish, Orangespotted Sides blue or gray, with occasional irregular orange spots, faint diffuse vertical bars; fin solid or faint spots/mottling
Warmouth Sides yellow-brown or olive with dark mottling, faint spots or faint bars; fin mottled and/or spotted

Other Characteristics

Bass, Rock 5-7 anal spines; 9-11 anal rays
Bluegill Opercular flap slightly elongated in large adults
Pumpkinseed None
Sunfish, Green Rarely a few teeth on tongue
Sunfish, Longear Opercular flap greatly elongated in adults
Sunfish, Orangespotted Opercular flap often elongated in adults; large sensory pores above lip; 8-9 anal fin rays
Warmouth Well-developed supramaxillary bone; teeth on tongue

Similarity Index

Bass, Rock Moderately similar
Bluegill N/A
Pumpkinseed Small juveniles very similar, adults moderately similar
Sunfish, Green Small juveniles very similar, adults moderately similar
Sunfish, Longear Small juveniles very similar, adults moderately similar
Sunfish, Orangespotted Small juveniles very similar, adults moderately similar
Warmouth Small juveniles very similar, adults moderately similar

For me it's the mouth; the way the upper and lower jaw extend about the same amount and appears paper thin.....

Wow ewest that's a lot of information and a neat website. Thank you for that. Here's my question stickem also noted he had yoy of the same fish. Would two hybrids of the same cross continue to breed similar looking hybrids? I was under the understanding that hybrids can and do breed but they will favor the traits of one of the two original species and revert back to that species.

Just a few notes on this.

Crosses can never genetically revert to the parent - they are what they are.

Local adaptation and plasticity can and often do effect what a fish looks like and what traits are outstanding.

Hybrid sex ratios in Lepomis are highly variable - see Childers work. No one knows yet how all of the genetic combinations line up in the parents much less in the various crosses. I was told by one genetists that in each human it is estimated that there was/is in that person about 4 billion possible genetic possibilities . People and lepomis have the same number of chromosome pairs - 23. Granted some of the genetic principals work differently in fish and humans but there are still a lot of possible outcomes in one fish , many times that in one species and I woul think many more in crosses. No doubt there are some dominant traits that will reappear but that is just a tiny fraction of the genetic story .

snrub,
...that's a good idea. Never thought much about catching the YOY. I've been concentrating on the 3-5" fish. Will pick up a couple more traps tomorrow before we head up.

If you open the hole up to 2" you can catch 4" GSF but you have to haul them in before they finish the food. Otherwise with the larger hole they can find their way out too easily. I find 15 minutes works well. Enough time for several of them to find their way to the bait but not so long they finish eating.

I have not tried it yet in the traps, but my feed dealer got in some Aquamax LMB feed and I took a couple bags. (Was supposed to be AM MVP for me but the they got the order wrong). I have been using large chunk dog food for bait and it works well. But this AM LMB should be the cats meow for minnow trap bait. 45% protein with fish attractant. I think it is going to be my new minnow trap bait. The pieces are large and should take a while for the small fish to tear apart. The problem with regular fish good is some or all of the pellets fall through the mesh making a bag or some other inconvenient bait holder needed. Large chunks like the dog food or the Aquamax Large Mouth Bass feed just drop in the trap and throw in the water.

If you want to have some fun with your feed trained BG, just throw in a few AM LMB chunks and watch them go nuts trying to devour it. I've seen them knock it plumb up in the air hitting it so hard. Till a 3# CC comes along and it is gone! Hope some day I will actually see a LMB hit one.