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Joined: Aug 2013
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OP
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16 |
Hey guys...just experienced a fish kill in my pond. This pond is not the greatest pond for sure..but I stocked it 3 years ago with BG and Bass...and 7 grass carp. I have 2 aeration heads in a shallow muck bottom pond, which was weed chocked when I started with it. Specifically coon weed and duckweed. Naturally the carp never ate the duck weed. So I ended up using Sonar...which as you know kills everything..with the grass carp in the pond no weeds ever grew back...I finally threw brush piles in for small fish cover. There was many bullhead and frogs in the pond..in fact when you looked in the water all you saw was tadpoles on every stick. This pond probably is average 3feet deep..deepest spot 5 foot maybe. The pond is in a heavily wood area and it makes me sick to see the leaves and pollen that get dumped into this pond. I have been trying to get the grass carp out anyway. But something happened this weekend all the carp died and maybe 100-200 LM and BG...mostly BG. Any ideas as too what might have happened? I have a lot of FA algae in the pond now BTW.
Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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Joined: Jul 2005
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Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
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It could have been caused by a number of things. If you had a recent cold front accompanied by rain it may have shut down a heavy algae bloom resulting in a disolved oxygen sag. After treating aquatic vegetation it is not unusual for the decaying vegetation to trigger an algea bloom as nutrients are released back into the water. Did the water become very green after the sonar treatment? You mentioned adding brush piles, any Walnut in the mix? Walnut can be toxic to fish.
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Joined: Oct 2014
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Sorry to hear about the problem! Can you provide details on what time of day you aerate? I am not a pro, but if you have a dense FA/vegetation population, my understanding is the dissolved oxygen will dramatically drop during the night and can result is a fish kill.
Another thought, any farmers nearby that may have treated their fields with herbicide recently?
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Joined: Aug 2013
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OP
Joined: Aug 2013
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No the sonar treatment was 2 years ago...there still is plenty of algae in the pond.
Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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Joined: Aug 2013
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OP
Joined: Aug 2013
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Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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Joined: May 2002
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Ambassador Hall of Fame 2014  Lunker
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Ambassador Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Sounds like there is a real possibility of a farmer spraying week killer on nearby farm fields.
"I love living. I have some problems with my life, but living is the best thing they've come up with so far." � Neil Simon,
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,534 Likes: 841 |
Has there been any aerial spraying going on in the area for anything? I wonder if the chemical that the state is spraying on wooded areas for different bugs would have any affect if they sprayed in the area?
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Joined: Aug 2013
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Joined: Aug 2013
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Sounds like there is a real possibility of a farmer spraying week killer on nearby farm fields.
Well there are no farms near me, there is a golf course below me. However about three ravines do bring runoff into the pond...and it had rained a day or two before. I guess it's possible someone did something to their lawn before it rained...I believe he had .3 of inch. What ever happened the frogs are unaffected, and there are still a ton of small fish looking healthy...so I really can't get a handle on this. Did not see any bullheads dead unless they don't float when they die....pretty sure we still have them in the pond. Hopefully many or most of the BG and LMB survived but I don't really know yet.
Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16
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OP
Joined: Aug 2013
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Has there been any aerial spraying going on in the area for anything? I wonder if the chemical that the state is spraying on wooded areas for different bugs would have any affect if they sprayed in the area?
Not that I know of...I hope that the state wouldn't spray something that could kill fish in the effort to control bugs..but you never know. The pond had been doing fine for 3 years and even survived a severe winter ....with no fish losses to speak of..and now this.
Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Moderator Lunker
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This has all the earmarks of an overly fertile, shallow pond, with an oxygen crash. Rotting leaves, dying duck weed, etc creates too much fertility. Then 3 or 4 days of limited sunshine and wind sucks the O2. The bigger fish always die first but some very small fish generally seek out the shallower water and survive.
I've seen it several times and had it happen to me twice. Once was from over fertilizing a pond that was naturally fertile. The other was my forage pond that wound up with way too many BG and fatheads.
Plants, including phytoplankton that is the basis of pond life, generate O2 during the day but suck it in during the night. The limited sunshine I mentioned above can keep the phyto from generating the O2. This is the time of the year for it to happen.
This is one of the reasons that we should never spray over 1/4 of the pond at a time. It gives the fish some place to go and breathe until that area "clears".
I have no idea which scenario fits your pond.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Joined: May 2009
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Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: May 2009
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You should expect to have periodic fish kills in a duck pond (shallow pond or deep wetland). I have three of these. They were intended to be fish free, but flooding stocked 2 of them and fathead minnows must have come in on waterlilies in the third. Enjoy them as wetlands or re-contour the pond bottom (deepen). Even well designed fish ponds can have fish kills due to oxygen depletion under ice or from decaying plant material.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Sounds like there is a real possibility of a farmer spraying week killer on nearby farm fields.
Well there are no farms near me, there is a golf course below me. However about three ravines do bring runoff into the pond...and it had rained a day or two before. I guess it's possible someone did something to their lawn before it rained...I believe he had .3 of inch. What ever happened the frogs are unaffected, and there are still a ton of small fish looking healthy...so I really can't get a handle on this. Did not see any bullheads dead unless they don't float when they die....pretty sure we still have them in the pond. Hopefully many or most of the BG and LMB survived but I don't really know yet. To me, a fish kill that kills the largest fish, then the mote fragile fish (LMB/BG) and not bullheads or frogs (which are like a canary in a cave) means depleted O2 levels or Hydrogen Sulfide to me. Frogs and tadpoles are sensitive to chemicals, and can breathe air, so lower O2 levels won't affect them. Bullheads are very hardy, and will survive low O2 levels too. I would rule out chemicals if the frogs and tadpoles are fine. There is aerating a pond, and correctly aerating a pond. I say it that way because unless the system is designed and calculations are done by someone that knows aeration, even though there are diffusers in a pond, and air going into it, O2 levels still could crash and fish can die. Case in point. Client has a large pond, some would consider it a lake. Shallow, mucky and weedy. Their budget would only allow 1/2 of the pond to be aerated year one, the plan was to add the 2nd aeration system year two. Things happened and 2nd system wasn't added. They had a fish kill in the part of the pond that didn't have the aeration system in it....
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16
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OP
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16 |
This has all the earmarks of an overly fertile, shallow pond, with an oxygen crash. Rotting leaves, dying duck weed, etc creates too much fertility. Then 3 or 4 days of limited sunshine and wind sucks the O2. The bigger fish always die first but some very small fish generally seek out the shallower water and survive.
I've seen it several times and had it happen to me twice. Once was from over fertilizing a pond that was naturally fertile. The other was my forage pond that wound up with way too many BG and fatheads.
Plants, including phytoplankton that is the basis of pond life, generate O2 during the day but suck it in during the night. The limited sunshine I mentioned above can keep the phyto from generating the O2. This is the time of the year for it to happen.
I have no idea which scenario fits your pond. Thanks ...it's an old overly fertile pond for sure...always leaves rotting in it...mostly oak, And it gets tons of pollen and those stringy things that come off the oak trees this time of year....when the wind blows hard from the north I'm able to trap some of this stuff in the extreme shallow end of the pond...using a line of swimming noodles...and a bunch of stuff was in that part before this happened. I guess with the aeration in the rest of the pond a novice doesn't see oxygen depletion as a factor especially after surviving a extreme winter 2years ago..which killed a bunch of ponds in the area. I kind of know from being on this forum this will never be a great pond, I new nothing of ponds other then I always wanted one since I was a kid...I bought a place that had one..then I started learning what a difficult project this one is. I may one day get part of it dug out..but access to do that is limited cause it is so heavily tree lined. It is still nice to puts around with , but this is dissappointing.
Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16
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OP
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16 |
Sounds like there is a real possibility of a farmer spraying week killer on nearby farm fields.
Well there are no farms near me, there is a golf course below me. However about three ravines do bring runoff into the pond...and it had rained a day or two before. I guess it's possible someone did something to their lawn before it rained...I believe he had .3 of inch. What ever happened the frogs are unaffected, and there are still a ton of small fish looking healthy...so I really can't get a handle on this. Did not see any bullheads dead unless they don't float when they die....pretty sure we still have them in the pond. Hopefully many or most of the BG and LMB survived but I don't really know yet. To me, a fish kill that kills the largest fish, then the mote fragile fish (LMB/BG) and not bullheads or frogs (which are like a canary in a cave) means depleted O2 levels or Hydrogen Sulfide to me. Frogs and tadpoles are sensitive to chemicals, and can breathe air, so lower O2 levels won't affect them. Bullheads are very hardy, and will survive low O2 levels too. I would rule out chemicals if the frogs and tadpoles are fine. There is aerating a pond, and correctly aerating a pond. I say it that way because unless the system is designed and calculations are done by someone that knows aeration, even though there are diffusers in a pond, and air going into it, O2 levels still could crash and fish can die. Case in point. Client has a large pond, some would consider it a lake. Shallow, mucky and weedy. Their budget would only allow 1/2 of the pond to be aerated year one, the plan was to add the 2nd aeration system year two. Things happened and 2nd system wasn't added. They had a fish kill in the part of the pond that didn't have the aeration system in it.... I'm no expert for sure,...and I suppose aeration might not be perfect..but as stated above, your in Indiana too..and that super severe winter we had 2 years ago, wiped out a bunch of ponds..yet mine survived...so I always assumed it was doing its job...that being said, two diffuser heads are covering 1/2 acre of a 3/4 acre pond the last 1/4 acre extremely shallow..the pond is irregular in shape and fairly narrow. Now I might be comparing Apples and oranges, and ya it looks like depletion is the cause..but it's like how with a small pond and two diffuser heads. I Got A lot to learn, and as stated above, it might keep happening do to the nature of this pond...thanks for taking the time to give your input.
Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368 |
I didn't see what the surface area of the pond is - maybe I missed it. Even if it's little, 1/4 ac or so, and it stays 5 ft deep, I'd say it has a chance of being a good pond, expecially since it survived a bad winter 2 yr ago. You might consider clearing some of the trees away from around the pond and maybe dropping a big one in it, if that's practical. A large oak fell into my small pond during an ice storm a year after I built the pond, and 9 yr later most of the tree is still there and providing shelter for small fish. Your pond may have had too many fish, and a small change in the environment may have tipped the scale against them.
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16
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OP
Joined: Aug 2013
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It's a 3/4 acre pond , but only a little over half an acre has any dept too it...which isn't much...mostly 3-4 feet. I may get it dug deeper in one part...it's too hard to reach most of the pond because of heavy tree lining...I'm sure if I do it's gonna smell real bad for awhile. I think even with a large boom..maybe 15 -20% could be reached and deepened. I also wonder if I risk disturbing the water table..or missing up my well since it is close to the pond..25 yards away.
Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Member
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It sounds like a depleted oxygen fish kill to me. I have had two, one in winter where the snow was so deep that I didn't remove some from the ice to allow sunshine to get to the plants to create oxygen. The other time was a really bad summer drought where the fish were gulping air at the surface and bluegills were laying flat near the shore trying to get air.
My pond is deeper then yours but I still consider it a shallow pond that needs plants for overall health including oxygen from plants. You killed off your plants with chemicals and the few plants that were left were taken out by your grass carp. Now to solve that problem you want to take out your grass carp. Your aeration couldn't make up the difference for the co2 needed. In my opinion you need to pick one course of management and stay with it.
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Joined: Nov 2015
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Joined: Nov 2015
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I seriously doubt that deepening your pond would affect your well. There's always the risk that deepening it might cause it to leak, especially if you deepen the parts you can reach to stratigraphically below what is now the deepest part. And I suppose, if it leaks, it could leak into your well. And then there would be the question of whether it could contaminate your well. Any water that reached your well would be filtered through at least 25 yards of something. I remember another thread that I think said there is a requirement in one State that the water well had to be at least 5 yd from the nearest pond.
I'd be a little more concerned about the movement of heavy equipment near the well. Depending on how the well is constructed, shaking might harm it.
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 16
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OP
Joined: Aug 2013
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It sounds like a depleted oxygen fish kill to me. I have had two, one in winter where the snow was so deep that I didn't remove some from the ice to allow sunshine to get to the plants to create oxygen. The other time was a really bad summer drought where the fish were gulping air at the surface and bluegills were laying flat near the shore trying to get air.
My pond is deeper then yours but I still consider it a shallow pond that needs plants for overall health including oxygen from plants. You killed off your plants with chemicals and the few plants that were left were taken out by your grass carp. Now to solve that problem you want to take out your grass carp. Your aeration couldn't make up the difference for the co2 needed. In my opinion you need to pick one course of management and stay with it. Thanks John...the grass carp are all dead..I was trying to get them out anyway. Are there any good weeds I could introduce to my pond? The pond was definitely was a better pond for all life in it before the weeds disappeared even though it was choked with coon weed.
Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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Joined: May 2009
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Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: May 2009
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There are a lot of nice marginal/emergent plants that will soak up nutrients and help keep the pond healthy. There are also some very nice and well behaved water lilies available. I have had poor luck establishing Vallisneria (eelgrass), but this appears to be a good submerged plant. What is the maximum depth of your pond, and how much of your pond is that deep? 
Last edited by RAH; 06/07/16 03:44 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2013
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OP
Joined: Aug 2013
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There are a lot of nice marginal/emergent plants that will soak up nutrients and help keep the pond healthy. There are also some very nice and well behaved water lilies available. I have had poor luck establishing Vallisneria (eelgrass), but this appears to be a good submerged plant. What is the maximum depth of your pond, and how much of your pond is that deep? Thanks For the reply, I'm completely ignorant of any good plants to it would be greatly appreciated for some very specific plants you have in mind. Max depth might be 5 ft..and that be in a very small area..mostly it runs 3-3.5. Some areas in 4 + . It's a 3/4 acre pond mostly with the depths I described...however there is a 15% area that is a foot or less. Also were does one obtain some of these desirable plants? Thank you...I'm gonna try to get this pond improved..I don't have endless resources for sure...but some of my problems are ignorance, and could have been prevented...I knew we need some plant life and the carp had become counter productive..I know they had to be eating other things..not sure what!!!!
Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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How much does the depth fluctuate? If the level stays fairly constant, it's easier to establish plants.
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How much does the depth fluctuate? If the level stays fairly constant, it's easier to establish plants. Very little...it has a 36 inch overflow pipe...I wish it was higher..cause it regulates the depth of the pond. It's more or less mounted in a damn that is a drive way for my neighbor...guess before I moved here it had a higher mounted narrower pipe and the damn/driveway got washed out....when we get a lot of rain, lots of water moves in and out of the pond
Here's a quarter, go downtown and have a rat knawl that thing off your forehead
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Around here there are a few large garden stores that carry pond plants for garden ponds. That is where you would get hybrid lilies and some other plants in low quantities. We also have a dedicated pond business locally but the store front has closed. Hopefully you can find similar places or order on line.
There are quite a number of threads here that list what you are looking for. Use Google to search this site specifically rather than the forum search and you will get much better results.
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,722 Likes: 282
Lunker
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Lunker
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I would start with some water lilies, spike rush, blue flags, lizard's tail, duck potato, arrowhead, and giant bureed. I bought some of these at Lowes and some from Cardno and Spence. My recommendation is to contact the DNR and see if they have Partner funds available or at least could give you technical assistance (see link below). You might also consider if the best long term solution to the shallow depth would be to have the dam/drive rebuilt higher. I think you will likely need some grass carp to keep plants in check in such a shallow pond. The trick is not to put in too many and to have patience while they do their work. I have a lot of plants in my newest pond (too many), but I want to see how things develop over several years before I decide to add the grass carp, and if I do, I'll start with just 2 fish. My crayfish should also help when the population builds up. The best approach is to enjoy what you have while planning. http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/partner.pdf
Last edited by RAH; 06/08/16 06:04 AM.
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