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I am planning to treat my .7 acre pond with Cutrine plus granules tomorrow. I have FA growing mostly around the shallow perimeter of the pond. I live in central VA and wanted to wait until after the spawn. It appears all the blue gill beds are empty from the May full moon cycle. I can see a few RES on the beds now.

Should I be concerned about the blue gill fry and minnows? I am not concerned about the bass fry. I stocked the BG, RES, and minnow in April 2013 and the 20 largemouth fingerlings in April 2014. My bass spawned in 2015 so there is a pack of 8 to 10 inchers running around.

I would prefer to not wait any longer as the FA has been around since the warm spell this past winter

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Another question along the same line....

I treated a couple small areas of FA in my pond yesterday with Cutrine Plus liquid. Tonight I had a floater 8 inch YP and a 7 inch CC. I can't find anything on the Cutrine Plus liquid label that talks about spot treatment. What I need is a dosage for say a 1 gallon pump sprayer for 250 square feet. Anybody know what the correct dosage is for spot treating with Cutrine Plus liquid??????

I am not looking for a "how many PPM" answer. I want how many ounces per gallon. If you provide a PPM answer I will hunt you down and stab you with a dirty chopstick! grin

Last edited by Bill D.; 06/01/16 09:27 PM.

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To spray the edges of my pond earlier this spring I put about a half pint in a two gallon sprayer and filled with water. Then sprayed out 2-3' around a 3 acre pond.

It did the trick.

250 square feet isn't much. I would go with a cup in about a gallon of water. If it doesn't kill it in a week, re-treat.

Figuring spot treat rates on any pesticide is a crap shoot.


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Another question along the same line....

I treated a couple small areas of FA in my pond yesterday with Cutrine Plus liquid. Tonight I had a floater 8 inch YP and a 7 inch CC. I can't find anything on the Cutrine Plus liquid label that talks about spot treatment. What I need is a dosage for say a 1 gallon pump sprayer for 250 square feet. Anybody know what the correct dosage is for spot treating with Cutrine Plus liquid??????

I am not looking for a "how many PPM" answer. I want how many ounces per gallon. If you provide a PPM answer I will hunt you down and stab you with a dirty chopstick! grin


BUT, the answer is derived from the PPM dosage rate........

Just remember, I can lob a copper coated piece of lead further than chopsticks can reach. laugh

The 250 sp. ft. measurement is meaningless unless you can attach a number of gallons of water to it. The dosage for 250 sq. ft. of water is different if the water is 6" deep than if the water is 24" deep.......

O.K. bear with me for a minute or 3. Lets look only at Filamentous algae according to the label.

It can be treated in low density at 0.2ppm, medium density at 0.6ppm and high density at 0.8ppm.

Gallons of product per acre foot of water at 0.2ppm is 0.6 gallons, 0.6ppm is 1.8 gallons and 0.8ppm is 2.4 gallons

An acre foot of water is 325,851 gallons. So to treat an acre foot of water at 0.2ppm you would need 76.8 fl. oz. of Cutrine Plus liquid. At 0.6ppm you would need 230.4 fl. oz. and at 0.8ppm you would need 307.2 fl. oz.

If the 250 sq. ft. area averaged 24" deep, that would be 500 cubic feet of water. 1 cubic foot of water = 7.48 gallons.

So the 250 sq. ft. area that is 24" deep on average will have 3,740 gallons of water. So to treat that volume of water you would need 0.881 fl. oz. of Cutrine Plus Liquid to achieve 0.2ppm application rate for low density FA, at 0.6ppm you would need 2.664 fl. oz. to achieve the application rate for medium density FA and at 0.8ppm you would need 3.526 fl. oz. to achieve the application rate for high density FA in that volume of water.

If the water depth averaged 12", cut that dosage rate in half.

So, will I still get stabbed with dirty chopsticks? Now do you see why knowing the volume of water is important (you can't go by just square feet of area)? That is why I wear sandals so frequently. I need all my fingers and toes to calculate application rates. laugh

When applying any chemical, it usually doesn't matter how much water you mix with it, you have to calculate how much of the active ingredient or product you are applying.

If you think that was hard, you should try figuring out how fast the tractor should be going if you are applying 32 fl. oz. of product per acre and your spray boom covers a swath that is 30' wide and you have 5 spray nozzles and are spraying at 40 psi. wink Maybe snrub can explain how to figure that out. laugh


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All the math makes my head spin. I thought granular was the way to go since I only had about a 2 foot wide ring around the pond. No mess or mixing. Once I thought I had figured the application rate, i realized it would be much harder to control the application rate of the granular.....

But back to my original question, the fry and minnows tend to spend most of their time around the shallow bank and tucked up under the FA. What affects should I expect to see on the minnows and BG fry

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If the FA is the only cover in the pond for them to hide in, then you will see increased predation on the YOY fish. If applied according to the labeled rates, the chemical itself should have no effect on the fish. If applied in excess of the labeled rate then you could see some mortality from it.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
[quote=Bill D.]Another question along the same line....



If you think that was hard, you should try figuring out how fast the tractor should be going if you are applying 32 fl. oz. of product per acre and your spray boom covers a swath that is 30' wide and you have 5 spray nozzles and are spraying at 40 psi. wink Maybe snrub can explain how to figure that out. laugh


Great explanation Esshup.

Actually that is easy in actual practice. We have spreadsheets to calculate the needs of each product for a given area (I created years ago) and on board computers with GPS and radar in conjunction with rate controller computers that take care of the application. Plus in the end we can reconcile everything against acres and gallons of material applied to make sure we got it right.

Years ago we figured it by hand but in reality mostly used pre-made charts.

But land application is only two dimensional. When you add in the third dimension of depth, plus the fact that most times you are dealing with a non-flat bottom and quite probably slopes that change around the perimeter and even the bottom of the pond. Then add in spot treatment............... and it all gets real fuzzy.

Not to mention the fact that once the spray hits land it stays in place. Once the Cutrine blue colored liquid hits the water, you can actually see it drift out into the BOW. How far? Anybody's guess.

Kind of like mixing up some glyphosate in a two gallon hand sprayer to spot spray some patches of weeds or grass. The rate of application comes down to a certain amount of calculation and a lot of WAG.

That is not trying to diminish the importance of TRYING to apply the proper rate. We certainly should try our best. But I see problems with applying a liquid into water with any great degree of accuracy in applying a certain rate to a certain spot area. Land application is lots easier for me.

Last edited by snrub; 06/02/16 12:08 PM.

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Originally Posted By: esshup
...So the 250 sq. ft. area that is 24" deep on average will have 3,740 gallons of water. So to treat that volume of water you would need 0.881 fl. oz. of Cutrine Plus Liquid to achieve 0.2ppm application rate for low density FA, at 0.6ppm you would need 2.664 fl. oz. to achieve the application rate for medium density FA and at 0.8ppm you would need 3.526 fl. oz. to achieve the application rate for high density FA in that volume of water.

If the water depth averaged 12", cut that dosage rate in half.

So, will I still get stabbed with dirty chopsticks? ....


Thanks Scott! This is exactly the info I was hoping to get. I think I way overdosed in my first little effort which probably accounts for my two floaters. Sure glad I just did a little test area and not the whole pond!

You have successfully avoided dirty chopstick impalement! grin


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snrub: No fair, that's cheating! laugh

Bill D : Whew! Glad that I avoided impalement.

I also went through the exercise to partly answer the unasked question of "Why do applicators cost "X" to spray my pond? What's so hard about dumping in some chemicals to treat the weeds/algae in my pond?"

Yes, there are some shortcuts, and SWAG's are involved to get close, and you can develop spreadsheets. But all of that takes time and experience, and doing that costs $$ too. Think of it as a college education but only on water over a number of years. AND you never stop learning too. Then you have insurance and equipment overhead costs......


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I've been thinking about this some more and don't think the 2 floaters I had were do to overdose of Cutrine. I found both entangled in dense untreated FA adjacent to the treated area. I saw no dead minnows, tadpoles or frogs. Makes me think the unlucky floaters pursued the minnows exiting the treated area into the adjacent dense FA and just got hung up. Anybody got thoughts on that scenario?


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Bill, the first time I put out the Cutrine liquid, I read the label, decided how far out from the bank I wanted to spray, estimated the average depth, calculated the circumference of the pond and came up with the amount of Cutrine that should be applied to that area. Then I put some water only in my hand sprayer and drove the 4 wheeler around the pond and sprayed the water out to see how fast to drive to get two gallon of water to come out right. Then I added the Cutrine to the water and did the spray.

I did the same thing when using the granules except I used a grass seed spreader and scales. Spread a small weighed batch as I walked trying to take measured steps, then calculated the rate and made adjustments as needed. The spreader worked "kind of" but had problems with the gritty granules plugging and sticking. But once I got my "rate" down I kind of had an idea of "how thick" the granules needed to be so now just spread it by hand trying to get about the same amount of granules thrown out about the same distance. Not exactly scientific.

Point is, I did not want to leave you with the impression I just made a wild guess and put some out there. I did make an effort to calibrate and get the correct amount on. But even with a best effort, the rate in my opinion is still a rather coarse attempt. But a person sure does not want to be putting several times the dosage so an attempt to at least get in the ball park is appropriate.

Last edited by snrub; 06/02/16 09:11 PM.

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Small fish especially fry are more sensitive than the adults. Another factor to take into consideration is the alkalinity. The lower the alkalinity the more toxic the copper becomes, even buffered copper, to those exposed. There are several variables that are involved in the degree of toxicity.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/02/16 09:16 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Small fish especially fry are more sensitive than the adults. Another factor to take into consideration is the alkalinity. The lower the alkalinity the more toxic the copper becomes, even buffered copper, to those exposed. There are several variables that are involved in the degree of toxicity.


Thanks for the input Bill! Supports my new scenario. No dead little guys and my alkalinity is 300+.

Snrub,

Never thought you didn't research it man. It's the spot treatment that seems to be the hardest for me. If it's dead calm, maybe stand a decent chance of getting it right but, if the wind is blowing some it is real tough for me to figure out how to keep the concentration of Cutrine right for the required 3 hours.


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Well, I found one 4 inch bluegill and found one 15 inch largemouth dead, both up in an inch of water in some grass. Sad to lose a what I assume to be a female bass since they were stocked as fingerlings in April 2015.

I guess it could be coincidence as the bass was in a spot where it could have grounded itself chasing food.


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