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I’ve built a 30 acre pond. Will stock bluegill, shellcracker and LMB. Goal is to have a great LMB pond and good bream fishing. 16' deep at dam on east side. Edges cut to 3'. I've built shelves (dirt mounds) parallel along north and south sides about 50’ from pond edges. Top of shelves will be 5' under the water line. Drops off to either side.

My questions...

Location of Cover
I have marked about 120 red cedar trees. Plan is to use auger to drill holes then "plant" the cedars (pack and use a bag of Quikrete). Then cut them off about 2' above the water line so I'll know where they are. Where should the cedars be placed? ON top of the 5' deep shelf? Or beside it and if so, on the side towards the center of the pond or on the bank side? Or both? Or leave the shelf alone with no cover and put the cedars elsewhere like along the bank or in deeper water?

Add Perpendicular Shelves?
I'm considering creating more shelves perpendicular to the existing 5' deep shelves (and therefore perpendicular to the bank). One about every 50 yards running either from the shelf to the bank or from the shelf to the deep water or both. Would form a "T" or a "+" at the intersection of the existing shelf and new shelf. Good idea? Or not worth the trouble?

Or should I forget all of this and go back to hunting and golf which were both much less expensive than this pond!

Thanks in advance for advice!

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The structure/cover archive has lots of ideas.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463


Be sure to use all depths , shade , natural features and types of locations.

Last edited by ewest; 05/31/16 02:35 PM.















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Thanks ewest. Yes, I've read all of those threads and articles there is great information in them. However, in this case I just have a couple of specific questions and am wondering what some of the readers would do if in my shoes.

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You can "Generally" expect cedars to last about 5 years in my area.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
You can "Generally" expect cedars to last about 5 years in my area.


What is your area? Here in AL we use them for fence posts and we have some posts 30-40 years old still holding barbed wire. Would the lifespan be a lot shorter under water?

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I'm in North Central Texas between Fort Worth and Wichita Falls.

I also have some ancient posts. But there's a lot of difference in a post and the branches when kept submerged.

It is interesting to me that a fence post will last for years. However, if I cut some wood for posts, lay them on the ground, they rot out in a couple of years. If I stack them against a tree, they hold up just fine.

BTW, I got that 5 year figure from Bob Lusk about a month ago. It may be different in your area due to different water qualities? I'm not sure.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 06/01/16 07:42 AM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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Thanks Dave. You are right about the branches. I don't expect them to last that long. I've seen the thread on here showing photos of cedars after 3, 5 and 10 years at at 10 there's little left but the post.

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When putting cover in a BOW, think of the fish size that you want to benefit from said cover. Smaller fish need smaller spaces between the branches, larger fish need larger spaces.

i.e. if you want to make protective cover for newly hatched fish and YOY, make the cover dense. If you want to have cover for ambush points for predators, have much larger spaces between the branches.

Using cedar trees for an example, 1, maybe 2 year old (in the water) cedar is good for YOY fish. As the branches decay and degrade, the cover will be good for larger and larger fish, if they prefer to relate to vertical cover. Some fish like horizontal cover, like a log to get under to get out of the direct sun in shallower water.

To help save on labor, I prefer to use non-biodegradable cover for small fish. Put it in the pond once and it's good for a long, long time.


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Alabama, I have placed cut cedars made into brush piles in 5 to 7 places around my pond in different depths> I was thinking about water depths changing in the summer months due to several factors. You might keep this I mind when placing the cover. My water depth changed by 18 to 24" last summer Another thing about cedar is that it attracts fishing lures and it likes to keep them. frown Another thing is, like u, I did a lot of reading, looking a pictures etc about cover. I found that I had a lot of stuff around the place that I used to build cover. It kept my burn pit smaller and trash piles smaller by building cover with what lays around the place. A new one I came up with is really simple. I took a bag of cement, then cut small X's in the sack, pushed some cut off (3' and 4' sections) rolled tubing into the sk through the X and added water. Makes some really easy to build cover that does not collect so many lures. Place 5 built sks close together, It made a nice cover area.

Tracy


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Alabama30 we will be glad to help. Can you post a pic or diagram of the lake ? I think mixed/complex cover is the best for fishing. For example have it included several items with dense cover (xmas tree), open cover (a few 2/3 inch dia. oak limbs or pvc tree) and provide some shade and very importantly have it include vertical relief and in conjunction with changes in bottom couture. An example would be to place 2 xmas trees and an oak top (several 2 inch branches)tied to a vertical post right next to a ditch/mound and placed to create afternoon shade. Have the cover go from bottom to within 1 foot of the surface. On the other side of the ditch place a pvc tree on top of the mound.

A couple example from the archive





A typical Ray Scott rendition of a pond with this method (pickle bucket method) and ridges , cuts and standing timber etc.


Last edited by ewest; 06/01/16 10:15 AM.















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Thanks to everyone for helping. But how about my original question, regarding the 3' or so tall dirt mount shelf that I have built that will be in about 5' of water. Regardless of what cover materials that I use (trees, artificial), should I put that cover on top of the shelf? Beside the shelf? Or some one way and some the other?

Thanks!

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This is something that I have not done, but when seen in an older thread (may be in the cover/structure archives) thought was a great idea.

With your post hole digger dig a hole and place a pipe vertical so it reaches a couple feet out of the water at the top. Then take cedar trees, run a cable through the big end, then put the cable over the pipe.

The reasoning is this. As cedar trees get a few years old, they loose much of their dense portion of the cover. So they need to be replaced or added to every five or so years. Your single trees will eventually just be stubs with only the largest branches left.

The pipe idea allows you to add to the tree pile a little each year or two. The trees will initially float on the surface but the cable will keep them in place till they water log and sink. Every year or two by boat add a tree or two. As the older trees have sunk to the bottom the newer trees will add dense cover to the upper areas of the water.

By having the pipe there you not only have the spot marked, but can easily add to the structure as needed over time.

I did not do that in my pond, but it seems like a great idea to do with a new pond where you can easily set up the pipes in a dry pond bottom. In a filled pond it might could be done, but would require driving a pipe in the bottom via a boat, which could be tricky.

As for placement, put it where you want to fish. Some within casting distance of any dock you plan to build is always good, as long as it will not interfere with any boat or swimming plans.


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IMO tall thick cover (several xmas trees tied to a post) about 2 to 3 feet from the ditch/low end of shelf and a pvc or tree limb structure on top of the shelf. Several of those in a 20 foot area to make one fishing structure.
















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How confident are you of the shelves holding their shape under water and possibly subject to mild wave action? Here in some areas due to the soil consistency, a bucket width or two trench is smoothed out in a year due to soil sloughing off and filling in the trench.


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Originally Posted By: Alabama30
Thanks to everyone for helping. But how about my original question, regarding the 3' or so tall dirt mount shelf that I have built that will be in about 5' of water. Regardless of what cover materials that I use (trees, artificial), should I put that cover on top of the shelf? Beside the shelf? Or some one way and some the other?

Thanks!


I can't tell you if what I did was right or not, but I can tell you what I did. My pond also has a shelf in the middle. The deepest area is near the dam and next deepest area on the opposite side. This puts a big plateau in the middle which we took a scraper and cut "slots" from one deep side to the other. I placed most of my structure/cover for this area right near the edge of the drop off to deeper water. My thinking was to enhance the vertical relief that the ground contour already provided.

Last edited by snrub; 06/01/16 10:33 AM.

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Esshup I agree with your idea that too narrow of slot will eventually just become a half depth dip in the bottom.

The slots I transverse the plateau in my pond were made with a scraper with either an eight or ten foot cut (cant remember right now). They ranged in depth but the deepest probably 3' deep. They have sloughed off considerably. They are wide enough that the slot is still there, but if they were only the width of a backhoe bucket, they would just be an almost unnoticeable line in the bottom. And our clay holds up pretty well. But any sediment will always seek the lowest spot if it can get there.

Last edited by snrub; 06/01/16 10:39 AM.

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You guys are offering some great advice. I'll come up with photos or diagrams soon, but I won't know what I'm working with until I meet with a timber guy tomorrow. I have about 5-6 acres of trees and I'm trying to decide what to do. My pond guy wants me to take them out. But it may not be enough timber for the timber company to fool with.

I'll keep everyone updated.

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Originally Posted By: esshup
How confident are you of the shelves holding their shape under water and possibly subject to mild wave action? Here in some areas due to the soil consistency, a bucket width or two trench is smoothed out in a year due to soil sloughing off and filling in the trench.


My brother just drained and restocked his 10 acre pond (had the bad fish in it). Our structure work was cut in half. In other words the 4' deep backhoe trenches that we made 7 years ago are now only 2' deep and curved instead of steep angles. It certainly changes over time. I'll have to consider that.

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Originally Posted By: snrub
This is something that I have not done, but when seen in an older thread (may be in the cover/structure archives) thought was a great idea.

With your post hole digger dig a hole and place a pipe vertical so it reaches a couple feet out of the water at the top. Then take cedar trees, run a cable through the big end, then put the cable over the pipe.

The reasoning is this. As cedar trees get a few years old, they loose much of their dense portion of the cover. So they need to be replaced or added to every five or so years. Your single trees will eventually just be stubs with only the largest branches left.

The pipe idea allows you to add to the tree pile a little each year or two. The trees will initially float on the surface but the cable will keep them in place till they water log and sink. Every year or two by boat add a tree or two. As the older trees have sunk to the bottom the newer trees will add dense cover to the upper areas of the water.

By having the pipe there you not only have the spot marked, but can easily add to the structure as needed over time.

I did not do that in my pond, but it seems like a great idea to do with a new pond where you can easily set up the pipes in a dry pond bottom. In a filled pond it might could be done, but would require driving a pipe in the bottom via a boat, which could be tricky.

As for placement, put it where you want to fish. Some within casting distance of any dock you plan to build is always good, as long as it will not interfere with any boat or swimming plans.



Snrub I'm with you. I know that trees and other affordable cover will not last too long. My plan is to drive metal tubing into the pond. A lot of them. Maybe 75 poles. That will last forever and I can go back at any time and drop tires over them, tie structure to them, and with the poles out of the water I'll know where they are. I'm trying to think long term and be able to replinish and add structure anytime I want, and know where it is. I tested it today and drove a pole 2' into the pond bottom and it's not going anywhere IMO. I think that's the way to go.

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That is the best method I know of . Threads here in archives.


From the Hands On Structure presentation during PB III.

A method of adding structure to a pond with water. This is an adaptation of the Ray Scott method from the Great Small Waters video. It can be done using xmas trees , buckets of limbs , pallets , or pvc structures. It involves driving a post into the pond bottom and using it to mark and hold the structure items. Using a boat (if unsteady you can use an A-frame ladder to drive the post) to drive the post ( using a shovel or fence post driver or hammer or ax) . After the post is in place tie the xmas trees to the post with small trot line string. Think about how you want the trees to hang in combination. Top up or down , horizontal . vertical and at what depth for each. You can also tie several trees together in squares to triangles (tree tops to bottoms to form and even structure). Then tie and place it over the post. Note after a year or so you can cut the string and allow them to fall to the bottom and tie on new ones. This will form a pile or cone of trees from bottom to top.

Post and trees



Tied to the post



Set to feed over



After they sink



Xmas trees work well for BG cover from predation.






A typical Ray Scott rendition of a pond with this method (pickle bucket method) and ridges , cuts and standing timber etc.


Last edited by ewest; 06/01/16 09:41 PM.















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Finally getting around to posting some photos with some of the work I've done based on what I've learned on the forum and from the magazine. I hope the links work. You will see we've been "planting" cedar trees. About 60 so far. I'm putting 7 or so in a line at different depths (5', 7', 9' and 11'). I'm driving aluminum poles into the ground either side to mark them and as a place for structure. Putting tires at the bottom of poles and I'll add plastic cases, kegs, etc. from a boat later. The shots you'll see are the NW corner of the pond. Has a 3' or so tall shelf that will be in 5' of water.

Moving over to the other areas of the pond next. Will try some similar stuff and also use cinder blocks and other things I've found that should make for good, long term structure.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uwi1a2kf0ufqzmt/IMG_6505.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ue7dtw5hrzxcvnm/IMG_6480.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gyalds4x7dk19fm/IMG_6489.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lhudqen17ijjdjq/IMG_6498.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c8ifk4wspgslaxy/IMG_6502.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7e1xf1klxnidkip/IMG_6475.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c21fns83l8y8wx6/IMG_6466.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ytbc75swb7gko8/IMG_6468.JPG?dl=0


Last edited by Alabama30; 07/25/16 10:04 PM. Reason: added photos
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That's nice !! I bet u r going to enjoy this pond.

Tracy


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Going to be one nice pond!


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Nice work.

















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