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#448323 05/27/16 06:33 PM
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Hello all,

I have a couple of questions for those of you who have experience building docks. The reason for the first 2 questions is that there is a 16 foot unsupported span between the 6 telephone poles set in a rectangular pattern before the pond filled and the shore where I can support it with more telephone poles or some 4 x 4 posts in concrete. A lot of questions here, so a sincere thanks in advance for the help on this.

A few details for context:

*I realize that anything can be done with enough money. I cannot break the bank on the dock. Cost is a factor.
*I plan on the walkway being 6-8 feet wide to allow for seating/storage.
*Whatever is used for this project will need to be able to be lifted/carried by myself and a few friends using small boats. No big machinery available (excavator, crane, ect...)

1. Can wood be used to span this area? If so, how. If not, what is the next best alternative?

2. What is an effective, yet economical way to set effective dock supports in a pond which is already full?

3. What is the general consensus on a decking material that doesn't break the bank but will last a while (15-20 years)?

4. Will I have to bolt the main frame of the dock to the telephone poles, or can some large wood screws be used? Any other ideas are welcome as well.


DeermanJ #448325 05/27/16 08:19 PM
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Wood can be used to span the 16 feet. I recommend using two treated 2x12 boards with two staggered layers of 3/4 inch treated plywood sandwiched between, bolted together with several galvanized or stainless steel bolts. In other words, a built up or engineered beam. These beams will be quite heavy, but very stiff and strong, due to wood grains running differently. This would be cheaper and easier to install than the alternative, galvanized steel I-beam, IMO.

Bolts or long thick galvanized lag screws only. Wood or deck screws will easily shear.

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John,

Thanks for the reply. A couple follow up questions...

What specifically do you mean by the 2 layers of treated plywood being staggered?

What should be used in between the beams to provide support for the deck boards? I was thinking perpendicular stringers with some spacers in between to nail the boards to?


DeermanJ #448331 05/27/16 09:23 PM
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The plywood will be 8 feet long. If your beams are to be 16 feet long, for each beam cut two pieces of plywood 11-1/2 inches wide by 8 feet long, and three pieces 11-1/2 inches wide by 5ft 4 inches long. That way the joints will overlap. You will need four 2x12 boards total and three sheets of plywood. I believe the wood would be less expensive than two new galvanized steel I-beams or T-beams, and easier to drill. Use plenty of bolts.
You could check local scrap yards for steel. Maybe someone recently sold an old lattice tower that might have nice galvanized steel.

Perpendicular stringers could be 2x8 treated wood on edge about two feet apart with braces between for the deck screws. Nails will pop out.

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Got it. Thanks John. Any thoughts on decking materials? I've done some research and it seems like 2 x 6 treated lumber makes for a decent deck board with better longevity than standard deck boards. I am open to suggestions. Thanks again.


DeermanJ #448333 05/27/16 09:32 PM
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2x6 treated lumber is standard for decks around here.

DeermanJ #448341 05/27/16 09:55 PM
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Hey deerman, I used 2X6 pressure treated for my runners and 2X8 pressure treated for my decking. For sinking 4x4 into a pond that is full you can do one of 2 things. ether you can cut the corners off the end you want to sink making it like a spear and drive it, or you can use a water or in some cases a high pressure water hose next to it and it will blow a hole for the post to go down into. Here is a link to my dock build I just did a couple weeks ago.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=448338&#Post448338


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DeermanJ #448343 05/27/16 10:02 PM
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John F has no doubt given you some good advice. I'll add just a few bits and pieces from experience.

If you do decide to use nails instead of screws, with treated wood they need to be galvanized nails because the wood treatment will rust out regular nails quickly. Screws need to be decking screws made for treated lumber. Don't use regular screws for the same reason. I use screws exclusively. I make mistakes. If you nail something with galvanized nails, they hold much better than regular nails. You pretty well destroy whatever you nailed together getting it back apart. Screws unscrew easily to correct mistakes or to modify something you decide you want done differently later. I personally like the deck screws with the star drive. The square drive is likely ok too although I have not used them. Avoid the regular Phillips head as they are easier to strip the head and don't stand up to re-use as well(when mistakes are made).

I used to use lag screws for attaching planks. Any more I use exclusively "Spax" brand fasteners. They are available in the big box home improvement stores. Lag screws are grade 2 and are subject to twisting off if you do not drill the correct size pilot hole in harder wood. Spax require no pilot hole and hold much better than lag screws. They are hardened steel and I have never twisted one off (have twisted off numerous lag screws over the years). The Spax are more expensive, but well worth it in my opinion. They are also available in a variety of head styles for specific needs (lag screws only hex bolt head). Do a Google search for SPAX or look them up on store web sites. They also have a flange head so no need for a flat washer. For fastening anything that needs something bigger than deck screws, use Spax.

If you do not have one, get an impact driver. Quarter inch hex drive impact driver. Don't try to use a drill as a driver. I use 18 volt Ryobi (Home Depot) and they work great (we own over ten of them we use in our shop and around the farm) but if you have a name brand you prefer I think any brand would be fine. You may already know this, but if you don't and are building anything with wood and screws, they are essential.

That is all I have.


Last edited by snrub; 05/27/16 10:10 PM.

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DeermanJ #448345 05/27/16 10:19 PM
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x2 on the star drive deck screws. That's all I buy these days. Three inch screws for standard (1.5 inch thick) lumber.

I tend to go overkill on my decks. On corners, I bolt twice to posts, 90 degrees apart, using 5/8 inch by 8" or 10" galvanized machine bolts with washers and square nuts. These bolts can be bought at utility suppliers; they are used as pole line hardware. I have jacked and repaired decks where the original builder used deck screws in shear to fasten the stringers to the posts, and the screws sheared off. Never use deck screws where subject to heavy shear, especially with live loads.

DeermanJ #448346 05/27/16 10:46 PM
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I used 2x6 treated lumber. The regular deck boards would probably be ok, I just thought for the price difference the 2x6 would last longer.

My dock uses 8" light I beams for the structure with 2x6 stringers and 2x6 decking. Sets on Osage Orange posts. 80' x 8' main dock with 12x16' floating and 8x8 gang way.

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DeermanJ #448348 05/27/16 10:55 PM
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Snrub, Your dock is easily the equal of or better than any of the publicly owned docks around here. Truly a professional looking job.

DeermanJ #448350 05/27/16 11:41 PM
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I truly appreciate all the advice that you all have given. Off to the lumber yard.


DeermanJ #448353 05/28/16 01:22 AM
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The heads of the star (torx) head "treated lumber" deck screws are rusting on my 8 year old porch steps. For dock screws all I use is square drive stainless screws.


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DeermanJ #448360 05/28/16 05:43 AM
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Snrub,

I love the Osage posts! How did you set those into the pond bottom? How did you attach the wood strings to the steel beams?


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DeermanJ #448366 05/28/16 07:51 AM
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snrub. nice pier and dock for sure!!

I wished I would have added a similar pier that would run to my 12x16 floating dock. I love my floating dock because I add a trolling motor and then use it as a barge and can carry people or cover around my pond for swimming off of and for spotting cover in and around the pond. But a pier like yours would improve what I have.

Tracy


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esshup #448378 05/28/16 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: esshup
The heads of the star (torx) head "treated lumber" deck screws are rusting on my 8 year old porch steps. For dock screws all I use is square drive stainless screws.


+2 Even the ceramic screws will rust now a days and if your using a true 2X6 use #12 screws. #10 minimum the #8 will shear off when the lumber drys. Place the 2X6 tight when installing and you will get 3/16 gap after the lumber drys. If you leave a gap you will have a very large gap when dry.

Lumber will cup or dry cupped against the grain. Meaning you want to lay the lumber with the rings catching the rain so when they dry they will crown up and shed water.

Just about every back yard carpenter thinks the rings need to be placed down but when the tree is young the cells are small as the tree gets bigger the cells are larger. Small cells hold less water then larger ones. Larger cells then will shrink more pulling the lumber into a crown. OUT side of the tree down!

Cheers Don.

Last edited by DonoBBD; 05/28/16 12:44 PM.

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DeermanJ #448387 05/28/16 03:58 PM
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good stuff!


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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Snrub,

I love the Osage posts! How did you set those into the pond bottom? How did you attach the wood strings to the steel beams?


I had cross pieces of sheet steel sheared at a local welding shop then grandsons and I welded them into a formation that would resemble an "I" beam without the upper flange. Then I welded tabs with holes drilled. The stringers sit on top of the lower flange then screws are screwed into the wood through the tabs. So essentially the stringers are setting vertically on steel cross pieces with the cross pieces being 8' wide between the 8" x 40' "I" beams.

We welded up all the metal including the 2" pipe hand rails in two 40' sections in our shop. Then all the metal was painted, top and bottom. All the wood was added after the metal structure was set on top of the posts in the pond.

The outer two post were set in 4' deep in the pond bottom in dry dirt. 24" tractor post hole digger then filled with concrete. Then went south for the winter for three months. When got back all the rest of the posts were set in standing water. Drilled the holes, set the posts, and poured concrete in standing water.

Used laser level to mark posts and cut off with chain saw and shape top. Set 10" channel iron weldment on top of each pair of posts and attached with lag screws to posts (would use SPAX if I had known about them then - twisted a few half inch lag bolts off in the hedge posts).

Put a dab of grease on the top of each channel and set one 40' section on the posts with our telehandler. Slowly pushed it out on the sets of posts as far as the telehandler would reach. Set the second 40' section and bolted to the first. Pushed all 80' out all the way into position. Welded the bolt down tabs in place. I made it so the whole thing could be taken back off the posts easily if I want. Don't know why, but I did.

Once the main dock was in place put all the woodwork together. Then floated the floating portion in place and installed the ramp. Made a metal subframe for the floating part of the dock so everything is metal from the bank all the way out to the end of the floating dock. Hinges were made from scrapped double fold corn planter markers with grease zerks on the 3/4"x6" pins.

Way overbuilt but it is the only way I know how to do it. You could drive a pickup truck out there, at least up to the floating part.

A smart person would have put all the posts into a dry pond bottom but I had a plane to catch the next day and a scuba tank with my name on it. So I did it the hard way when when got back with the pond was fairly full. Wasn't sure how we were going to get all that steel 80' out over the water, but we figured it out and got it done. Would have been a piece of cake had we done it before the pond filled. But didn't decide to build the dock till the pond was mostly done.

Reddy, fire, aim. A comprehensive plan in the beginning would have been nice.


Last edited by snrub; 05/29/16 12:00 AM.

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DonoBBD #448401 05/29/16 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted By: DonoBBD
Originally Posted By: esshup
The heads of the star (torx) head "treated lumber" deck screws are rusting on my 8 year old porch steps. For dock screws all I use is square drive stainless screws.


+2 Even the ceramic screws will rust now a days and if your using a true 2X6 use #12 screws. #10 minimum the #8 will shear off when the lumber drys. Place the 2X6 tight when installing and you will get 3/16 gap after the lumber drys. If you leave a gap you will have a very large gap when dry.

Lumber will cup or dry cupped against the grain. Meaning you want to lay the lumber with the rings catching the rain so when they dry they will crown up and shed water.

Just about every back yard carpenter thinks the rings need to be placed down but when the tree is young the cells are small as the tree gets bigger the cells are larger. Small cells hold less water then larger ones. Larger cells then will shrink more pulling the lumber into a crown. OUT side of the tree down!

Cheers Don.


Wish I would have known some of this when I did mine. I'm not even a back yard carpenter (maybe a back yard welder though) so our boards went down at random. I have had to go through and tighten some of the screws. Grandsons were not always thorough about making sure the boards were down tight at installation. They did a pretty good job otherwise under my supervision. Stainless screws would be great though I might have chocked at the price for the amount I needed. Would definitely be a special order thing in this neck of the woods. If the screws and boards will last 20 years it will be somebody else problem by then.

Hope to get it all sealed with a Behr Deckover type product this summer. Any suggestions on that type of treatment?

Last edited by snrub; 05/29/16 12:39 AM.

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DeermanJ #448407 05/29/16 04:59 AM
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It seems like those screw type pilings would be perfect for dry pond use. I just seen them on a deck program the other day. Probably real expensive.

snrub #448408 05/29/16 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: snrub
Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Snrub,

I love the Osage posts! How did you set those into the pond bottom? How did you attach the wood strings to the steel beams?


I had cross pieces of sheet steel sheared at a local welding shop then grandsons and I welded them into a formation that would resemble an "I" beam without the upper flange. Then I welded tabs with holes drilled. The stringers sit on top of the lower flange then screws are screwed into the wood through the tabs. So essentially the stringers are setting vertically on steel cross pieces with the cross pieces being 8' wide between the 8" x 40' "I" beams.

We welded up all the metal including the 2" pipe hand rails in two 40' sections in our shop. Then all the metal was painted, top and bottom. All the wood was added after the metal structure was set on top of the posts in the pond.

The outer two post were set in 4' deep in the pond bottom in dry dirt. 24" tractor post hole digger then filled with concrete. Then went south for the winter for three months. When got back all the rest of the posts were set in standing water. Drilled the holes, set the posts, and poured concrete in standing water.

Used laser level to mark posts and cut off with chain saw and shape top. Set 10" channel iron weldment on top of each pair of posts and attached with lag screws to posts (would use SPAX if I had known about them then - twisted a few half inch lag bolts off in the hedge posts).

Put a dab of grease on the top of each channel and set one 40' section on the posts with our telehandler. Slowly pushed it out on the sets of posts as far as the telehandler would reach. Set the second 40' section and bolted to the first. Pushed all 80' out all the way into position. Welded the bolt down tabs in place. I made it so the whole thing could be taken back off the posts easily if I want. Don't know why, but I did.

Once the main dock was in place put all the woodwork together. Then floated the floating portion in place and installed the ramp. Made a metal subframe for the floating part of the dock so everything is metal from the bank all the way out to the end of the floating dock. Hinges were made from scrapped double fold corn planter markers with grease zerks on the 3/4"x6" pins.

Way overbuilt but it is the only way I know how to do it. You could drive a pickup truck out there, at least up to the floating part.

A smart person would have put all the posts into a dry pond bottom but I had a plane to catch the next day and a scuba tank with my name on it. So I did it the hard way when when got back with the pond was fairly full. Wasn't sure how we were going to get all that steel 80' out over the water, but we figured it out and got it done. Would have been a piece of cake had we done it before the pond filled. But didn't decide to build the dock till the pond was mostly done.

Reddy, fire, aim. A comprehensive plan in the beginning would have been nice.



Wow, well it turned out amazingly! Nice work!


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DeermanJ #448421 05/29/16 09:08 AM
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This may not apply here, but a common thing around the finger lakes is to have dock modules on wheels, like old hubs or whatever works. It allows pulling out of the water for the winter. It may be a way to construct one place and pull to another with an ATV. Bolt sections together once in place in the water. To level them is to have telecoping pipes with a series of holes with bolts, and raise/lower as needed.

My uncle's docks were metal frames, and 6x6 dock "tiles" were placed on top once frames were installed. This has the advantage of being able to be painted when needed, and replaced when expired. These things are still in use, and are more than 60 years old. Heavy from all the paint over the years.

The boat launch is the same way, just a large metal frame with pulleys, rope, and a large hand wheel to lift the boat.

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I saw that type of dock up in Canada around Lake of the Woods area. This particular one was all factory made galvanized steel. Had solid rubber tires and the leveling mechanism used pins in holes like you describe but also had a winch and cable system to make the adjustments.

I thought it was a pretty neat setup.


John

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