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Tom W Offline OP
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Hi all, I am new to the forum and will have a lot of reading to do here. I will also have a lot of questions in the future because I will need all the help I can get. I have a 1 acre lake that I am trying to work with some.

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Hiya, welcome to Pond Boss. Another Hoosier here. I float thru Morgan Co regularly, 37 thru Martinsville, etc.
Tell us about your pond, pictures, goals, problems, inhabitants, etc. Lotta folks here willing to help. But yes, read lots. Much to learn already out there.

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I have a 1 acre lake in the center of 10 acres of property. I bought the place in 1999. At they time, it had grass carp, bluegill, Good sized black crappie and a few medium sized bass. The lake is part of a shallow ravine that the original owner dug out. His wife told us that before it was completely dug, they got a big rain and did not continue the digging after that. After about ten years, the grass carp died off. Then I started getting duckweed which pretty much took over. The lake is fed by what I refer to as a dry stream. It only provides runoff after about an inch of rain. The condition of the lake now is shallow with too much muck in the deep end. I would estimate that half of the lake is 4 feet or less. The other half is about 7 feet deep with a lot of muck. I can take a canoe out and push a paddle down about 2 feet into the muck, while getting a flourish of bubbles coming to the top. The lake is pretty much surrounded by trees and get a ton of oak and other leaves in it each fall.

I had two fish kills mostly occurring in the early spring, or at least showing up in the early spring after the ice clears off. I bought a windmill aerator (Koenders) several years back to provide some air for the lake but it probably wasn't enough to do the job. Now, it has gone belly up and I can not get repair parts. I had thought about getting the lake re-dug, so I had a couple of old friend that liked to fish, come out several times and catch everything they could. Then, after a couple of quotes for doing the job, I decided I could not afford it. One guy wanted $47,000 and that was with the muck and mud hauled 300ft to another low place. The next guy wanted between $15,000 and $30,000. To me that meant it would be $30,000.

So, here I am, getting ready to put fish back in it, with some grass carp and a few talopia. I have some Macro Zyme to help reduce the muck and am wondering what the best way to add additional air into the lake to assist the bio degrading of the muck and to help the fish. I am starting slow with the fish and am putting 100, 3-4 inch black crappie, 100, 2-3 bluegill along with 5 pounds of flathead minnows. There are presently a ton of bullfrog tadpoles in the lake that will help feed the crappie.

Anyway, I am sure my numbers are off as far as restocking but it is a start and I can add a few bass later. The lake had nice bluegill and crappie before so I guess that is what I am trying to get it back to. I may add a few channel catfish also but just 20 or 30 that I catch elsewhere.

Ok, that is it in a nutshell. I just found this site a day or so ago so have been feeling around in the dark for a while. I have read some on here about a muck pump but am not sure they are in the US or just overseas. I have also read about a nice 1/4hp air pump that would last for years and was rather economical.

Any advice would be appreciated.

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Oof! That is a lot of $$$ for a clean-out.

Any chance of getting electric or an air line to the pond for regular aeration rather than relying on wind?

Also it may be wise to clear the trees out a good distance from the pond to reduce future accumulation of leaves.

When you do get runoff, it is a lot? Do you have a spillway or drain pipe? I wonder if adding a bottom-fed siphon system would allow sucking out some muck during heavy rain events, sort of an advantageous vacuum cleaner if you will. If you don't fix the end into position, you could occasionally move the inlet or extend it as time goes on to suck the muck out of multiple areas.

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Tom W Offline OP
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liquidsquid, you are exactly in line with what I have been thinking. The clean-out price quoted was way too high AND they wanted me to cut the levee to drain the lake. Another guy told me to never cut a good levee but rather to syphon out and use my 2 inch trash pump to drain the lake. I should also note that the levee is also my driveway back to the house.

Second, I was reading on here about a Gast 1/4hp air pump being especially dependable and maybe not breaking the bank. I will be doing some checking on it to see what I can put together.

I have a mix of different sized pines along with a mix of midwest leaf trees along the south side of the lake. I have given some serious thought to clearing a lot of those out but have hesitated because I hate to cut trees. I may end up doing it anyway and just leave a few of the pines and maybe a couple selected leaf trees.

Also, I am getting close to 70 and just can't handle a chain saw like I used to.

We do get a influx of water when we get a big rain. The first think I did when I moved in was to re-build and re-pour the spillway. I may have my words mis-used here. I have 2 plastic 55gal barrels setting one on top of the other with the bottom cut out of the top barrel. These barrels are set in concrete and have a drain pipe, 14 to 18 inch in diameter going from the bottom of the barrel through the levee and draining toward a nearby creek on the property line. So, at water level is an opening 55gal barrel size so high water can drain into the barrel opening then drain out the drain pipe. I had a good screen around the barrel opening but it is a wreck now and needs to be replaced. Usually this spillway can handle the Indiana rains although the water may rise a foot to 18 inches. At that point, in the same area as the spillway is a low spot that is approximately 10 feet across. If the water gets too high because the spillway can not keep up with the incoming water, it can go over the driveway, through a thin section of woods and drain into the same creek the spillway does. This excessive amount of water only occurs on average once a year but can be more or less. The prior owner had a fine mesh wire fence placed across this area to keep fish in the lake. That has since deteriorated and been removed.

Lastly, I had thought about using a 4 inch plastic drain pipe as a syphon hose going out the spillway and vacuuming some silt out. And maybe the trash pump with a 2 or 3 inch intake pipe as maybe a vacuum. Some information about that possibility would be great.

If I can figure out how to post pictures, I will do so to help clear up my inability to properly describe my thoughts.

Thank you for the questions and keep them coming.

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"Politics": derived from 'poly' meaning many, and 'tics' meaning 'blood sucking parasites'.
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Renovations with a lot of muck take a lot of heavy equipment hours, that is a sad fact. If you have Crappie AND duck weed, I would NOT add fish...I'd hit the pond hard with Hydrated limes and start over with fish that can be managed. Black Crappie will be in the pond by the tens of thousand at only about 2-3 inches long and will make trying to stock your way out of the problem, futile!



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How is it that a Koenders windmill cannot be repaired?

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Tom W, Crappie are a boom/bust spawner with each female laying about a quarter million eggs. In small waters (under 50+ acres), a boom hatch leaves you with literally millions of fry that have nothing to eat, so they stunt at a couple inches.

If you REALLY want Crappie, Hybrid Black Crappie can be MUCH more easily controlled by largemouth bass.

The tadpoles are likely American Toad, tadpoles. They are toxic to most fish, so won't get eaten or provide a food source.



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canyoncreek, I purchased the dual diaphragm windmill pump I think 8 years ago. It is on a two section tower if I remember right so about 12 ft high. Easy to reach when standing in the front bucket of my tractor.

Anyway, there is a specially designed steel plate that holds a bearing. It is at the inner end of the shaft and as the offset end of the shaft turns, it pushes the two diaphragms in and out to force air through the air line. Mine was serial number #215 and was apparently one of the older versions. This steel plate broke at one of the welds so I tried to order the part. I was told it was no longer made and was out of stock. My alternative was to order an entirely new pump although at a discount it was still Approx $500. That was the company answer rather than having a supply of $30 parts to fix their product.

I did try to fix it on my own with some welding but then found that I could not get the old bearings off the shaft. Since the steel plate broke but kept trying to operate the pump, it destroyed the two inner bearings. So, I now have a nice little tower to hang Christmas lights on.

I will say the POC I had with the company, Spencer was very thoughtful and tried to help as much as he could but the only answer the bosses had was for me to buy a new pump.

I felt that after 8 years of operation it was about time to expect to need some replacement parts. I found out that the company had decided to NOT stock parts to maintain their product but had no problem with me sending them another $500. (never ever happen)

If anyone is using the newer version, you may be fine until they change designs again.

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Tom W Offline OP
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Thanks for your interest Rainman. I of course am new to this. I am only trying to put back what was there when I started in 1999. The lake had grass carp which have since grown huge and died. I have 11 small replacements coming. Then a few Tilapia I am estimating 6. $54 worth at 18 a pound.

I used to catch large black crappie (from fingertip to mid forearm), Large bluegill )(full hand size) and an occasional bass (not bigger than 3 pounds or so). I also fished for channels one night and caught 3 in about an hour that would go about 5 or 6 pounds.

That is what I was trying to get back to but starting out small in the 2 to 4 inch range to start. I will add some shiners and a few (30 to 40 LMB) in the fall.

Anyway, that is the plan. If it goes haywire, I will start from scratch again.

As far as the cost of re-digging the lake I agree that equipment is expensive and I have ran some of it. I look at it this way. To do the job, they need a small dozer in the lake bed, a track hoe that can move to 3 or 4 places along the edge and a dump truck to haul muck 400ft and dump it. I figured if when the lake bed was ready, they went in full force it would take about 5 days of work for three workers. This may be some off the mark but it is close. To me that is no where close to $47,000 dollars worth of work. The guy that said $15,000 to $30,000 would in my experience come in closer to the $30,000. And it told me that he did not have very much experience or he would be able to get the parameters a lot closer.

It is something like buying a new car and the salesman saying to sign all the papers so it is obligating. Then upon delivery, I would pay between 15 and 30 thousand for the car. I bet the average car price in that arrangement would be $29,999. :-)

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Tom W Offline OP
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This is a picture of my lake and some property. This is a LOT deceiving because it does not show the shallowness or the duckweed I have now.



I am standing on the southwest bank. from the dock toward me is about 8 feet deep. From the dock going toward the back is 5 feet to start but most id 4 feet or less.

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Sure looks pretty

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Tom W.,
Welcome to pond boss....Pretty place you have there. I like the used car analogy. If I were you, I'd try to find a "pond guy"......not just a "dirt guy". Big difference. I was lucky enough when I did a renovation and expansion 2 years ago to find the folks that I did....and they stayed under budget. The added expense as you mentioned, is getting the sludge moved away from the pond after it is mucked out. 5' was removed from my li'l BOW. They pushed as much as they could away from the pond, but we had to hire a dump truck to come in and haul it to other areas on the property. Good luck. Keep posting pics of your progress.
Charlie

Last edited by stickem'; 05/04/16 04:19 PM.

...when in doubt...set the hook...
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I had my 1/4 acre pond cleaned of about 4 to 5 feet of muck last August. I paid by the hour and it cost me $2800 for a backhoe and a bulldozer three days. My pond is now 11 feet deep when full. Extrapolating that to one acre, should be less than $12,000. My sludge was pushed out into the field to dry for a year until it can be pushed up behind the dam, making the base of it wider. Here is a recent aerial showing the pond and sludge.

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Tom, You have a BEAUTIFUL setting there!!

I specialize in Tilapia, and if you are hoping for algae or duckweed control, 6 tilapia will not make any form of noticeable impact. Grass carp should not be added unless needed, and without proper plants they can control, they will starve. Large grass carp are almost worse than useless eating plants. Black Crappie take a tremendous amount of very dedicated management in a small pond, and is why I suggested Hybrid Black Crappie, which largemouth can easily control the inferior offspring of.

I don't want to sound like the rainman is raining on your ideas, but my experience is that the goals you are shooting for will be very difficult, and take a LOT of good luck to achieve, and could cost you more than the muck out in the long term. I'm hoping to steer you toward rethinking more reachable goals that are also very budget friendly, but if you wanna go for the fish you stated, we can help you get there, but it won't last more than a couple years at best without a lot of daily work.

Last edited by Rainman; 05/04/16 06:41 PM.


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Tom W Offline OP
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I do appreciate the information Rainman. The first picture was several years ago when the grass carp from the prior owner were still there. They seemed to be doing fine at that time but had gotten so big they they weren't helping much. At $18 a pound for Tilapia knowing that they would die the first winter, I just got $54 to see what they were like.

Here is a picture that is more recent taken from the opposite direction from the first and after the Grass Carp died.



This should give them something to chew on.

I have had fish on order from Jones Fish for about a month now that will be delivered sometime this month. I probably still have time to make changes to the order so I will ask what fish do you recommend. From their web site, they do not offer a Hybrid Black Crappie. Only white or black.

If your lake looked like the first picture with grass carp and like the second picture without them, what would you recommend?

Last edited by Tom W; 05/04/16 07:14 PM.
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John, that is about the price I was expecting to get but ended up with the higher version. What you did with the muck as far as expanding the thickness of the levee is exactly what my plan was. I am looking more toward doing a water dredge now. Something where I can get the equipment and in my own time, do it strip at a time. The tremendous amount of leaves that go into it each fall have built up and are adding a high volume of nutrients that feed the duckweed. I am sure there is some silt also. the dredge system should take care of both. Those are just ideas at this moment but I have been reading a lot about what is available.

I would real like to have my lake with an 11 foot depth.

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Just some FYI on using Tilapia as a management tool. First, Tilapia are intended to die each fall, that is how they work their magic. Those $18/lb fish are hybrids, and will die around 55 degrees. The ones I sell, survive to 45. Tilapia can be stocked as a management tool for a few reasons, but primarily to eat filamentous algae, as no other fish does (especially grass carp). Tilapia reproduce like crazy, and being mouth brooders, 98% of the eggs hatch to become fry. The female releases the fry from the safety of her mouth into algae mats growing on the pond bottom. Those babies literally eat themselves out of a home and your other young of year fish, like BG and LMB hover around grabbing all the fry they can get. LMB YOY concentrating on the Tilapia fry will take predation pressure off your BG forage and after the Tilapia are gorged on at the end of the season, the LMB and other apex predators have lots of extra BG to forage (and other forage species) on throughout winter.

Tilapia also grow about 1" a week, converting food at about a 1.2:1 rate, meaning 1 pound of flesh per 1.2 pounds of food eaten. Since they grow so fast, and primarily only eat what nothing else in the pond can, or does eat, the tilapia grow quickly into the perfect size ranges for any size fish in the pond...this alone increases the sizes of virtually every large fish faster than any other annually stocked fish could.

Tilapia also eat the detritus on the pond bottom, improving water quality by oxygenating compressed debris and promoting aerobic bacterial growth, which helps to recover/speed up muck reduction (the $30,000 job?)

That is just a brief overview of what tilapia do, when stocked at proper rates for proper goals. If your muck is not silt, that fish that dies every year could do, for far less money than, what you were quoted on a renovation. Add up costs for aeration, fish food, and chemicals to control plants, and even $25/lb is a bargain.

Last edited by Rainman; 05/04/16 08:15 PM.



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