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Am looking for ideas to build a live box for about 100 lmb fingerlings about 2 inch long. Will raise them to about 5 inches before letting go in the pond. I saw a pvc and screen box on here somewhere but cannot find it again. Any ideas would be appreciated.


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Last edited by ewest; 05/03/16 04:24 PM.















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Make sure the fingerlings are pellet trained. If you don't have any experience with cage raising fish your project could only have 40-50% success. YOu may be further ahead time&money buying 30-40 5" LMB.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 05/03/16 07:10 PM.

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Flame, please keep us informed on the path you take here. I like the octagon shaped net but I understand it might be easier to feed train in a smaller area, From my reading, (more competition for the feed). Anyway to design your plans to where they start in a box pen and as they grow open area to a larger sized area, like the net pen. If Needed !! Remember, I don't have any experience growing out lmb fingerlings.

A concern brought up to me in a past conversation with a very experienced fish guy, when growing the fingerling lmb, some may be cannibals as fingerlings and these are the jumpers or shooters(fast growers). This may come into play when figuring survivors numbers.

And we bass fisherman thought there was nothing to these southern bass ponds. smile A Perfect pond not as easy as it sounds

Tracy


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ewset, thank you for you pulling up your old thread. I have read a few times here and other places where hook shy lmb could be solved by introduction of new lmb into a pond. So how did your plan work out ?
Hook shy bass are in my thoughts and something that may come up @ my place sometime in the future and it would be nice to know if this lmb introduction really works.

Flame, sorry for any hijacking here. Not sure a new thread would be necessary here

Tracy


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James,

I built perch traps out of steel cloth and zip ties. Very inexpensive and easy to manipulate into any shape you'd like. If you added some pool noodles around the top the basket would float, or you could tie it to your boat dock and it would suspend mid depth. Not sure which would be best but if you float it id make sure to make the cage deep so the fish can go to the level they prefer.

google perch trap for ideas or holler at me and i can help you out!

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You can also buy plastic screen. I used it for my Tilapia.

Last edited by john kelsey; 05/04/16 08:13 AM.
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TGW1 here is some info on your question copied from a prior thread.

Keep in mind that over time the death of LMB (by catch and keep or death due to catch stress)all target the fish that are apt to bite (catchable fish). See other threads on the heritability of catchability.I would suggest that you keep records and harvest fish (the skinny or oversized class)by electroshock as it does not target catchable fish.

More on catchability - the chart below shows a 50% reduction in catch rates over 3 generations.




THE CUTTING EDGE – SCIENCE REVIEW
By Eric West


Aggressiveness - it should have been obvious – it’s in the genes

Catchability, how likely a fish is to bite a lure, is a problem encountered by pondmiesters and is often referred to as aggressive fish vs. non-aggressive fish. It has been debated on several occasions on the Pond Boss Forum and articles have appeared in Pond Boss magazine concerning possible management options for fish that don’t bite well. So what are we missing that is so obvious about this aggressiveness trait?


The new study is titled Recreational Fishing Selectively Captures Individuals with the Highest Fitness Potential by David A. H. Suttera, Cory D. Suskib, David P. Philippb, Thomas Klefotha, David H. Wahlb, Petra Kerstene, Steven J. Cooke, and Robert Arlinghaus , in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1212536109 , October 26, 2012. This study, using the same genetic line as the first study noted above, found that the trait “catchability or vulnerability to angling” positively correlates with 1) aggression, 2) intensity of parental care, and 3) reproductive fitness.

THE CUTTING EDGE – SCIENCE REVIEW

By Eric West

Mixing Largemouth Bass sub-species, catchability and other questions

Mixing the two sub-species of largemouth bass (Florida - FLMB and Northern - NLMB ) to achieve the result of bigger fish while retaining good catch rates has been a goal of many a fisheries manager for years. Now we have another scientific point of light , titled Subspecies Composition of Angled and Electrofished Largemouth Bass in Texas Reservoirs , Dijar J. Lutz-Carrillo, and Spencer Dumont in Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeast Association of Fish and Wildlife. Agencies 66:75–81, 2012 Proc., to add more knowledge to the equation

The study’s results provide biologists with a provocative concept that, in southern waters (natural integrated zone of FLMB and NLMB), FLMB likely are more difficult to angle than NLMB, but the phenotype (genetic trait) of reduced angler susceptibility (catchability) is mitigated (reduced) by introgression (genetic mixing), even at low levels of NLMB genes

While many factors may function concurrently to determine angling susceptibility, including fishing pressure, naivety of individual fish, learned lure avoidance, and stress from catch and release , we now know that catchability is a genetic and heritable trait as was previously discussed in earlier Cutting Edge articles ( see Garrett (2002) and Philipp et al. (2009) ).
See the table 1 below from the study which provides some eye catching numbers. A few that quickly got my attention. Even when there were roughly twice as many NLMB in the survey as FLMB the cross population showed almost 50% Florida genetics. In one instance where there was roughly 15 times the number of NLMB as FLMB the cross population showed 29% Florida genetics. The number of crosses in the tests far out numbered either FLMB or NLMB. I bet if you look you can spot a few more.

Note that when pure FLMB were removed from the dataset numbers (leaving only crosses with high levels of FLMB genetic influence) the trait of reduced catchability disappeared. Stated differently the addition of only a small amount of NLMB genetics caused poor catchability to disappear.

One interesting aspect of this study is the incorporation of a substantial amount of information from unpublished Texas Parks and Wildlife Department studies.
Assuming the electrofished collections were a reflection of the true composition of the population these results suggest that FLMB were more difficult to angle than expected based on their frequency in the population and that NLMB were angled at expected rates. Thus, in a scenario where both subspecies exist in equal proportions, we would expect FLMB to be more difficult to angle relative to NLMB.

Electrofishing has been the preferred method for collecting non-biased samples of largemouth bass for genetics studies over the last three decades and while capture rates may differ among seasons and throughout the day, no bias in the collection of either subspecies has been observed in numerous studies. Additionally, one study reported that largemouth bass collected using rotenone and electofishing from impoundments exhibited no differences in genotype frequencies.




In two lakes fish with high levels of FLMB influence (crosses and FLMB) were collected at significantly greater rates by electrofishing than angling. However, when the pure FLMB were removed from the dataset (leaving only crosses with high levels of FLMB influence) these differences between gear types disappeared. This suggests that the initial differences between gear types was skewed by the disproportionate number of FLMB collected by electrofishing and that crosses, even with high levels of FLMB influence, were collected at expected rates. Therefore, if FLMB and crosses with high FLMB influence were present in equal proportions, it would be expect that FLMB would be more difficult to angle than the crosses.
The distribution of LMB subspecies and their crosses are not identical; however, habitat preferences and distributional patterns appear to be more similar between the subspecies in southern impoundments than elsewhere. This I suggest is because the southern region is where FLMB and NLMB naturally coexist and cross leaving high populations of crosses.
It appears that the introgressed fish( FLMB/ NLMB crosses of all % , F-1 through Fx predominate and trend toward greater FLMB gene expression (see trophy fish comment below) .
Trophy fish (≥13 lbs.) from introgressed populations are represented disproportionately as non-introgressed FLMB relative to the frequency of FLMB in the general population ( TPWD, unpublished data). Thus, in an appropriate environment, genetic composition appears to be a critical component of maximum size in largemouth bass. While most of the differences in growth and maximum size between these subspecies are likely due to intrinsic physiological differences, behavioral differences, such as reduced angling susceptibility, may also play a role. FLMB that are potentially less susceptible to angling would be removed from populations at reduced rates relative to non-introgressed NLMB or crosses, allowing a greater proportion of FLMB to reach an older age and greater size. However I recall TPWD data also showing many of the share-a-lunker fish were high FLMB percentage crosses.

Well we are now one step further along the road to understanding FLMB and NLMB and their crosses. While it is early in the process most fisheries scientists now agree that FLMB can grow larger and are harder to catch. This study is the first to show that with a few NLMB genes in the population (individual) that the dreaded trait of reduced catchability can be greatly diminished. This was suggested in some of the early studies but not isolated in crosses as has been done here. You might, if you are in the south (natural integrated area) , consider adding a few NLMB to your FLMB only waters to improve catchibility. At low rates the NLMB genes don’t seem to reduce growth and size in the crosses.

Look for threads here on catchability. The info is here as is the research.



Here are a couple with links

Look for threads here on catchability. The info is here as is the research.



http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=274175&page=1

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post200220

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post260622

Last edited by ewest; 05/04/16 01:51 PM.















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Flame, since you and I have had similar conversations with the lmb stocking flmb, or other types, I hope you won't mind if I add another question here.

ewest thank you for your input. smile
After building the pond and then researching I was leaning toward the F-1 lmb but as I continued my researching, here in the Texas area, I found out that many hatcheries here eliminated the F-1's as stocking fish due to the possibility of their breeding inferior (smaller lmb) over time and generations. I also noticed that over time the lmb stocking by the TP&W has produced smaller lmb recently. The Texas history will support no other lmb of 18+ lbs have been caught since Ethel was caught in Lake Fork back in the 90's. Or at least, I have not seen any other results from the TP&W stocking recently. I had a few conversations with different fish suppliers and I learned of the Camalot Bell lmb and of Overton's Fishery in Buffalo Texas. And I met Todd Overton @ the last PBF held in Texas. I decided to go with Todds Camalots, now know as the Texas Legacy LMB (I think).
I understood introduction of new lmb introduced into a pond would improve the fishing because the new would stimulate the bite of the original fish. And when I read your earlier post, I was hoping to see how that worked out. I will continue with my plans of keeping the genetics I have now and will try not to introduce other genes types to the pond. Just thinking out loud here about what if and when I might run into smart fish over stupid fish in my pond. And would introduction of new fish same genetics stimulate a bite.

Thanks

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 05/05/16 08:48 AM. Reason: add in

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That is a lot to digest. Here are some thoughts

Fla LMB have lower catchability than N LMB - proven in many studies.

Both Fla and Northern LMB have different catacability rates within the species. Chart above was just northern LMB - you can see the differences. Same for Fla's some bite better than others.

Studies prove and data confirmes that all the monster LMB in the TX program were/are not pure Fla - a substantial % had some northern genetics.

Having a small amount of northern genetics substantially helps catchability.

No data that I have seen indicates that the catachability genetics have been isolated in a sub set of Fla fish. I am not aware of anyone (they may exist though) that has selected (genetically) Fla strain LMB based on catachability. It is done based on growth/size instead.

















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