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#445448 - 04/26/16 10:41 PM Rock bass
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
How would rock bass work out in a pond that is primarily a BG pond? Would they serve as a top predator if there were nothing bigger, or would they just compete with the BG? How well do they do with bass or crappie? Are they easily caught on artificials?

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#445450 - 04/26/16 10:51 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5299
Loc: Boone County Illinois
FWIW Lake Geneva (Wisconsin) near me has a very healthy Rock Bass population and is also a great place to catch some nice LMB. It's not unusual to catch 8 to 10 inch Rock Bass. I'm sure there are larger ones. I suspect the Rock Bass primarily compete with the LMB of similar size, along the same line as how SMB compete with LMB. I doubt they could control a BG population.

We accidentally catch them when trolling for LMB so artificial LMB baits work for Rock Bass I would say.


Edited by Bill D. (04/27/16 08:02 AM)
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#445788 - 04/29/16 09:02 AM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
RER Offline


Registered: 01/23/12
Posts: 1869
Loc: N FL
My lake in Northern WI has lots of them. You can catch them if you fish brush piles or deep structure during the day. At night they are out actively hunting the sand bars etc. Catch them on crank baits at this time.
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#445793 - 04/29/16 09:12 AM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Posts: 10457
Loc: northern VA
They would not be able to properly control BG numbers. If given the proper spawning conditions, similar to SMB, they can spawn in ponds. They prefer cooler waters that are silt free. If able to spawn, they'd be likely to over populate and stunt with a bigger predator controlling them.
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#445804 - 04/29/16 09:57 AM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 18946
Loc: Miss.
Thanks CJ !

Guys be sure we are all on the same page. Rock Bass are very often confused with other similar species by many.

From efish

Rock Bass, Ambloplites rupestris


Physical Description:
· Compressed, stocky body
· Large, terminal mouth
· Dark-edged anal fin
· Large cheek scales
· Rounded pectoral fin
· Almost straight-edged tail fin
· Red eye
· Olive-brown peppering on body
· 5 anal fins

Similar species:
· Roanoke bass (Ambloplites cavifrons)
· Ozark bass (Ambloplites constellatus)

Mean body size:
· Adults are 110-200 mm standard length

Habitat:
· Clear, moderate-gradient, cool to warm streams and rivers, usually around cover
· Avoid areas of heavy to moderate siltation and turbidity

Distribution in VA:
· Big Sandy and Tennessee drainages
· Introduced to the New and Atlantic slope drainages

Food Habits:
· Young eat microcrustaceans, insects, and other invertebrates
· Juveniles and adults eat crayfish, fish, insects, and other invertebrates

Reproductive Habits:
· Mature in 3 years
· Spawning occurs April to early June in water that is 15.6-26°C
· Males fan out circular nests in shallows on coarse sand to gravel and defend the nest
· Fecundity is 2,000-11,000 eggs per female

Population Status, Economic, or Ecological Importance:
· Popular game fish
· Stocked in many of Virginia's drainages
· Competes with Roanoke bass and brook trout
· Referred to as “redeye”




Edited by ewest (04/29/16 09:59 AM)
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#445878 - 04/29/16 05:19 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
ewewt,

That's the fish I asked about, but there are two closely related species in MO, and also the warmouth that are of equal interest. I'm wondering if any of these would be a positive contribution to my, primarily BG, pond, or to panfish ponds in general. It seems like, if they are compatible and will hit on flies or light spinning tackle, they would be fun to catch, and probably good eating. I know people in southern MO speak highly of goggle eye.

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#445879 - 04/29/16 05:52 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5299
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Anybody know if Rock bass cross with any other SF species in the wild?
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#445914 - 04/30/16 12:20 AM Re: Rock bass [Re: Bill D.]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24001
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
You talking about this?



Caught in Lake Minocqua, Wi.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#445917 - 04/30/16 12:27 AM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
Probably not exactly what I started out talking about. I'd guess that's a warmouth, but it will do just fine as a variety of sunfish (or member of the sunfish family) to consider.

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#445919 - 04/30/16 12:36 AM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24001
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Warmouth

Rock Bass

What does the picture look like after looking at the images on both of the pages? wink

edit:

I was able to get both of the links fixed.


Edited by esshup (04/30/16 08:22 PM)
Edit Reason: fixed links
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#445922 - 04/30/16 01:09 AM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
The links did't work for me, but looking at images I did find on the Net, I'd change my guess to rock bass. Each is of equal interest to me at this point.

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#445962 - 04/30/16 02:02 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
I found a 2010 PBF thread on rock bass and GSF. Interesting stuff, especially about the GSF. I had never read anything good about GSF before. It seems that some people really like them - more than any other fish. Between rock bass and warmouth, it looks to me like warmoth are a little better choice for a farm pond. They get bigger, aren't as demanding or water quality, and will hit flies. Some people have reported that they are hard fighters, and others said they hardly fight at all. So...?

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#445965 - 04/30/16 03:23 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13088
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
The GSF doesn't get as large as the others. However, I believe it could live in a cup of coffee and out fight any of the other Lepomis.
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#446045 - 05/01/16 02:25 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
ewest Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 18946
Loc: Miss.

TEMPO OF HYBRID INVIABILITY IN CENTRARCHID FISHES
(TELEOSTEI: CENTRARCHIDAE)
DANIEL I. BOLNICK1, AND THOMAS J. NEAR

The only crosses with total inviability in
both directions are M. salmoides X (Ambloplites rupestrus,
Pomoxis annularis, or Pomoxis nigromaculatus) at 28.94 million
years, while 10 other crosses of that age have some
viability in one or both reciprocal directions (see online Appendix).
Centrarchids also retain nonzero viability and heterosis
for much longer than most other taxa.

That is why I ask about the confusion. Warmouth is a lepomis while Rockbass is Ambloplites rupestrus ( see above) . All Lepomis can cross while AR can't cross with LMB or Crappie.
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#446048 - 05/01/16 04:09 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
So rock bass and warmouth are both in the sunfish family, but they are in different genuses. So they can't interbreed or hybridize. But I think the main reason people may confuse one for the other is their superficial similarity in appearance.

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#446050 - 05/01/16 04:50 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 18946
Loc: Miss.
Yes and no .

RB and WM can cross. Relatives LMB can not cross with RB or crappie.


That includes all the lepomis and most of the Centrarchidae. That does not mean the crosses are common or viable to adulthood.

Centrarchidae (44 species: 33 extant, 11 extinct)

Centrarchinae

Acantharchus pomotis (Baird 1855) Mud sunfish
Ambloplites ariommus (Viosca 1936) Shadow bass
Ambloplites cavifrons (Cope 1868) Roanoke bass
Ambloplites constellatus (Cashner and Suttkus 1977) Ozark bass
Ambloplites ruprestris (Rafinesque 1817) Rockbass
Archoplites †clarki (Smith and Miller 1985) Clarkia perch
Archoplites interruptus (Girard 1854) Sacramento perch
Archoplites †molarus (Smith et al. 2000) Ringold sunfish
Archoplites †taylori (Miller and Smith 1967) Lake Idaho sunfish
†Boreocentrarchus smithi (Schlaikjer 1937) Healy Creek sunfish
Centrarchus macropterus (Lacep`ede 1801) Flier
Enneacanthus chaetodon (Baird 1855) Blackbanded sunfish
Enneacanthus gloriosus (Holbrook 1855) Bluespotted sunfish
Enneacanthus obesus (Girard 1854) Banded sunfish
†Plioplarchus septemspinosus (Cope 1889) John Day sunfish
†Plioplarchus sexspinosus (Cope 1883) Sentinel Butte sunfish
†Plioplarchus whitei (Cope 1883) Laramie sunfish
Pomoxis annularis (Rafinesque 1818) White crappie
Pomoxis †lanei (Hibbard 1936) Ogallala crappie
Pomoxis nigromaculatus (Lesueur 1829) Black crappie

Lepominae

Lepomis auritus (L 1758) Redbreast sunfish
Lepomis cyanellus (Rafinesque 1819) Green sunfish
Lepomis gibbosus (L 1758) Pumpkinseed
Lepomis gulosus (Cuvier 1829) Warmouth
Lepomis humilis (Girard 1858) Orangespotted sunfish
Lepomis †kansasensis (Hibbard 1936) Rhino Hill sunfish
Lepomis macrochirus (Rafinesque 1819) Bluegill
Lepomis marginatus (Holbrook 1855) Dollar sunfish
Lepomis megalotis (Rafinesque 1820) Longear sunfish
Lepomis microlophus (G¨unther 1859) Redear sunfish
Lepomis miniatus (Jordan 1877) Redspotted sunfish
Lepomis peltastes (Cope 1870) Northern longear sunfish
Lepomis punctatus (Valenciennes 1831) Spotted sunfish
Lepomis †serratus (Smith and Lundberg 1972) Keigh sunfish
Lepomis symmetricus (Forbes 1883) Bantam sunfish

Micropterinae

Micropterus cataractae (Williams and Burgess 1999) shoal bass
Micropterus coosae (Hubbs and Bailey 1940) Redeye bass
Micropterus dolomieu (Lacep`ede 1802) smallmouth bass
Micropterus floridanus (LeSueur 1822) Florida bass
Micropterus henshalli (Hubbs and Bailey 1940)
Micropterus notius (Bailey and Hubbs 1949), Suwannee bass
Micropterus punctulatus (Rafinesque 1819) spotted bass
Micropterus †relictus (Cavender and Smith 1975) Chapala bass
Micropterus salmoides (Lacep`ede 1802) largemouth bass
Micropterus treculi (Vaillant and Bocourt 1874) Guadalupe bass


TEMPO OF HYBRID INVIABILITY IN CENTRARCHID FISHES
(TELEOSTEI: CENTRARCHIDAE)
DANIEL I. BOLNICK1, AND THOMAS J. NEAR

The only crosses with total inviability in
both directions are M. salmoides X (Ambloplites rupestrus,
Pomoxis annularis, or Pomoxis nigromaculatus) at 28.94 million
years, while 10 other crosses of that age have some
viability in one or both reciprocal directions (see online Appendix).
Centrarchids also retain nonzero viability and heterosis
for much longer than most other taxa.


Edited by ewest (05/01/16 04:55 PM)
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#446052 - 05/01/16 05:03 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
sprkplug Online   content
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Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6893
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
Originally Posted By: Turtlemtn
So rock bass and warmouth are both in the sunfish family, but they are in different genuses. So they can't interbreed or hybridize. But I think the main reason people may confuse one for the other is their superficial similarity in appearance.


Count the rigid spines on the anal fin. RB will have 5-6, while WM will usually have 3.
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"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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#446054 - 05/01/16 05:18 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
Where is this leading? What confusion are you attempting to resolve? "Additional data are required to unambiguously
resolve relationships among centrarchid genera." Phylogenetic Relationships of the Genera of North American Sunfishes
and Basses (Percoidei: Centrarchidae) as Evidenced by the
Mitochondrial Cytochrome b Gene, by KEVIN J. ROE, PHILLIP M. HARRIS, AND RICHARD L. MAYDEN

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#446174 - 05/02/16 07:20 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
What's the point of genuses (genera) if they can cross? It's bad enough that species cross. One of the 2010 posts asked why not stock both rock bass and wormouth if both are available? That seems like a good question. It doesn't appear that either is likely to mess up a BG - LMB pond. It sounds more likely that the bass will wipe them out, or the BG will out compete them. But I haven't found that either RB or wormouth is available.

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#446199 - 05/02/16 11:00 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Dave Davidson1]
4CornersPuddle Offline


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 181
Loc: southwest Colorado
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
The GSF doesn't get as large as the others. However, I believe it could live in a cup of coffee and out fight any of the other Lepomis.


You got it, my friend!

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#446200 - 05/02/16 11:58 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
I can't find anyone selling any of those 3. I've heard that over time, if you start with HBG, you'll end up with GSF. At the time, I thought that that would be a bad thing, if it were true, but now I'm thinking maybe it would be okay. What kind of SF would be bad in a pond that starts out as primarily a BG - LMB pond? Are there any?

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#446204 - 05/03/16 01:11 AM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 892
Loc: Louisiana, USA
I remember catching rock bass in upstate New York. They were very aggressive fish, though didn't fight quite as hard as BG. And yes, they did seem to prefer rocky terrain.
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#446787 - 05/09/16 01:28 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
Turtlemtn Offline


Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Missouri
BG fight hard alright. I caught one yesterday on a fly rod that I was sure was a bass until I got it in. It fought as hard as any fish I've caught in my pond so far. The bass that broke my line fought harder, and I saw enough of it to know it was a much larger fish. BGs are amazingly feisty little critters. I played this one carefully because I was afraid it was going to break my line.

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#446798 - 05/09/16 03:31 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4200
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: Turtlemtn
What's the point of genuses (genera) if they can cross? It's bad enough that species cross. One of the 2010 posts asked why not stock both rock bass and wormouth if both are available? That seems like a good question. It doesn't appear that either is likely to mess up a BG - LMB pond. It sounds more likely that the bass will wipe them out, or the BG will out compete them. But I haven't found that either RB or wormouth is available.


I've been actively managing a pond for only three years. So what I am about to say is not from very much experience but from what I have gleaned from my reading and here on PBF. I have been managing GSF in one old pond though. But these are my observations.

It seems to me northern PBF owners seem to have more of a hate/fear of the feisty GSF than southern pond owners. Maybe because of the length of spawning season for BG in the north vs south??? Don't know.

There are several threads that deal with ponds where GSF have established early and ruined a stocking plan. Including my old refurbished pond ( 100% GSF ). Somehow the GSF get a head start on the forage fish to be stocked. Then with the bass like GSF big mouth and voracious aggressive appetite they keep ahead of the stocked forage and never let it get established. This seems to be where the GSF really can devastate a pond. In the early stocking stage of a new pond.

Dave Davidson, the bad influence he is, has been the voice in my head that has caused me to be putting a dozen or so GSF in my large pond. I have caught/trapped a few GSF out of my sediment pond (which were likely hitch hikers in my stocking of RES and CNBG when I stocked this pond) and rather than destroying them putting them in my main pond. I've also grown at least tolerant (if not fond like Dave) of my GSF and I definitely like the hybrids they produce. But this is a three year old pond that has probably tens of thousands of BG (from 8+" down to new fry) so the addition of a dozen or two GSF is unlikely (in my opinion) to upset the BG apple cart.

In my old refurbished pond, it was another story. The GSF started out from a puddle and got the jump on my stocking plans, so the aggressive GSF got control of the pond. I had to trap and fish out lots of them while adding 5-6" BG to finally get ahead of the GSF so something else could get established.

So in my un-expert opinion, some of the other than BG lepomis are likely to be a problem only if they get established to early in the game where they get control of the pond and keep desired species from gaining a foothold. In a pond with a well established foundation of BG for forage, I don't see a small population of GSF causing me a problem. But an early established population of GSF did cause me a problem in my old pond. The addition of adult BG in significant numbers (several hundred large enough the GSF could not eat) finally tilted the balance against the GSF and now I have both GSF and BG recruitment in that old pond. Will be interesting to see what happens to that population mix over the next few years.

I could be making a mistake putting a few GSF and hybrid BG in my established BG/LMB/CC pond, but I don't think so. Panfish and a little fun with easily caught fish are my goals (I get bored quickly fishing if nothing is biting). Nothing trophy (well maybe a trophy GSF out of my old pond would be ok). Others with other goals probably never want to see a GSF in their pond.


Edited by snrub (05/09/16 03:50 PM)
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#446804 - 05/09/16 05:04 PM Re: Rock bass [Re: Turtlemtn]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1552
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
The GSF are more easily consumed by LMB and larger CC due to the more slender shape of the GSF body compared to BG. Due to your populations of LMB and larger CC, you very likely will not have a problem with GSF in your big pond.
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