Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations 2nd winter kill in 5 yrs

Hellow everyone, I'm am also new here but in 45 min I've learned more than I new in 39 yrs,this is the site I was dreaming of last weekend while going through the depression of loosing my first stocking of fish since owning our pond and the second since my first visit to it 5 yrs ago.
Pond description; Built 1958, 2.55 ac. max depth now 16'aprox., (1958 22') designed by IADNR. tile fed from aprox 160 acres of crop fields + runoff 30 acres. Pond is surrounded by Elm, Locust, and oak. Recently cut off all of nearly 100 various sized trees off Dam and had overflow cleaned.
When I first saw the pond it had an abundance of Green Sunfish and LMB in 1999 we had a winter with continous snow cover for 4 mo. the next spring I saw no fish and could not catch any. In 2001 I stocked aprox 2500 Bluegill, and 250 Channel Cat and in June of 2002 I stocked 175 LMB all from the IADNR stocking program. Also 6 grass carp. I saw the bluegill spawn and could see the small ones before I put in the bass. My kids caught several 7" bass in Sept. I had a large plant cover of a submerged variety I can not name right now. Also a large crop of watermeal and duckweed. Since we had a semi drought year I was about 1-1/2' low and very little new water came in through out the year. I had open water on the north shore in late Dec early Jan but then it got cold and froze it tight until March. During the open water times I coulf see many Bullfrog tadpoles gulping for air which I thought nothing of since they always do that. I also could see no fish gulping for air. After april thaw I found thousands of the tadpoles and maybe 100 bluegill a doz bass and three or four catfish, in addition to one bass aprox 2lbs which probably survived the 1999 kill. I am sure it was a result od DO.

I am looking for suggestion on maniging my pond as well as the buffer around it, I don't mind the trees and the wood ducks love them but the leaves I realize create a problem and they are not that nice of trees. Also will concider draining and cleaning if costs are not to high and benifits are worth the costs. I want to stock again as soon as possible If I still can apply in IA for the DNR program. I am also looking towards areation since we build our house with in 75 feet of the pond. Wind is probably not an option since I have all the trees around it. I thought about using chemicals on the surface and submerged weeds but was worried about a fish kill from that. I was told that I could use a roundup solution to kill plants on the surface is this a good idea? and Is coppersulfate a way to get rid of submersed plants perminatly of seasonaly?

Thanks for any suggestion and help seems like a great place for information

FH

You need Dave Willis, he knows his stuff about northern ponds. I'm sure he will chime in or you can find one of his posts and send him a personal email.

sounds to me like you are having dissolved oxygen problems due to rotting vegetation. I remember Dave and I had this discussion on the board, with some research you can find it. Based on what I have learned from Dave you probably dont want to eradicate all the weeds from your pond. But with watermeal and duckweed you may have no choice. It will be difficult to control these weeds and not kill all the other plants in the pond. There are two products called Sonar and Avast that can eradicate water meal and duckweed, but they take a long time to work (90 days) and if the pond has flowing water all the time the herbicide will be washed out it has a chance to work. you may consider this option if your pond does not flow much water, then consider introducing native plants for fish habitat. It will take between 12-18 months depending on the flow rate of your pond to wash all the floridone out so your introduced plants wont be killed by the treatment. The idea here is to eradicate the watermeal and duckweed then introduce a more desirable plant for fish habitat.

another option = There is a product called Reward, we have discussed this herbicide here as well. it will kill duckweed very well and some species of water meal. it also works very well on submersed vegetation. Its a contact herbicide so you may be able to treat certain areas of the pond and leave some weeds in other areas for fish habitat. think of treating the pond like mowing the grass. Start early in the spring and try and maintain about 20 % weed coverage all summer. You will probably not be able to eradicate water meal with Reward, I have eradicated duckweed with Reward but it takes some very consistant treatments. I think as long as you stay on top of things during the warm part of the year you can avoid oxygen depletion during the cold months. A good aerator will help the cause.keeping the snow off the ice will help too. The plankton can still produce oxygen under the ice as long as the snow does not pile up.

I hope this makes some sense, you have a complex problem and I'm just a dumb redneck from Georgia.

Fishhead,

Glad to hear you took my advice and came on to this board. It sure beats the one you originally posted on, and the people are more likely to respond on here.

Shan, Can't Fishhead eradicate his weeds several months before winter sets in especially as he does not have any fish to speak of now? I would think if he did it soon enough they should be decomposed before winter sets in.

I'm no expert on herbicides though, and lets hope someone chimes in on this one.

Sure, the weeds can be taken out but based on what I have learned from David it will reduce productivity dramaticly. If his pond was here in the south I would wipe out the weeds without a second thought.

by treating early and consistantly the weeds will be gone and rotted away before the ice over and that should help with DO under the ice dramaticly. With the weeds he has described consistancy will be key to keeping a healthy pond. duckweed and grow faster than kudzoo under the right conditions and can cause BOD problems during the summer. It may be necessary (and much easier) to kill all the weeds in an attempt to eradicate the water meal and duckweed. then he can let other more desirable weeds/habitat grow back and keep it under control with Reward.

If the pond were here and the outflow was minimal i would treat with floridone get rid of all the weeds and put in 15 grass carp per acre. If water is flowing, floridone is not an option. there is no legal choice but to treat with Reward.

Do I need to have an applicators license to purchace or apply this Reward?

FH

Good morning, Fishhead.

First of all, let me express my sympathy! I would have thought that 16 feet of water in central Iowa would have been sufficient to avoid winterkill. Unfortunately, you seem to be caught in my part of the world.

The winter of 2000-2001 was REALLY tough (long, with much snow cover) up here in east-central South Dakota, and you obviously caught the same weather. If it's any consolation, we lost two ponds that we manage for a truly interested landowner. One pond is 7 acres and has a max depth of 27 ft, while the other is 3 acres with a max depth of 19 ft. The 7-acre pond was managed for smallmouth bass only, and it was sure sad to see 3-4 lb smallies dead along the shore. The 3-acre pond was managed under a largemouth bass/black crappie option, and those 12-inch black crappies dead along the dam were also a sad site. A 20-acre pond below the two smaller ones had no dissolved oxygen problem, and did make it through the winter OK.

Now, the worst part of my story is that we have Koender's windmill aerations systems [http://www.koenderswindmills.ca/] on both of the ponds that winterkilled. During cold, calm weather, the ice does freeze over the pond, but then the hole re-opens when the wind starts again. That spring was one of the low points of my pond management "career." Here was an interested landowner, with well-managed ponds, good treatment of runoff into the ponds through extensive grass filters, and aerators in place, and we still lost the two ponds. I guess we just live in a harsh environment. I will say that we immediately restocked both ponds, and they are doing well. We had no problems at all this past winter.

One of my primary questions about your pond involves the extent of vegetation coverage. I'm most interested in the rooted, submergent plants, if you know what I mean (not cattails or other similar emergent vegetation). As Shan already indicated, a 20% coverage of these plants is ideal for a bass-bluegill pond in the Midwest. Do you have more vegetation than this? If so, perhaps something should be done. If not, perhaps we could find a way to live with it.

Do you have any other big source of organic material that flows into the pond? You mentioned tree leaves. How much?? Should we build a small “check” dam to catch that organic load before it reaches your pond? Is there direct runoff from cropfields? Any source of additional organic material allows more decay under the ice, and the bacteria that break down the plant matter will use your dissolved oxygen.

As you already indicated, I'd guess that an aeration system is probably the best bet for your pond. You excluded wind-driven systems in your original post, although the Koender's windmills are actually up on a hill, and then an airline runs down to the pond. If you are only 75 feet from your new house, then electricity should not be a problem, and you certainly could run an electric compressor. From my time on this website, I've learned that I am FAR from an expert on aeration systems. Too big a compressor can cause problems, as can too small a compressor. Also, we always used to put the air release in the deepest part of the pond, but it seems that a moderate-depth shelf might be a better location. Let's see if one of the gurus will help out on this thread. If not, we can search some of the past posts, and “find” the experts. 

My best guess is that the Iowa DNR would restock your pond, as long as no fish are present. That may require a complete renovation (draining or chemical poison for the fish). Do you have a contact within the DNR? If not, I know quite a few of the fisheries biologists over there, and could find a contact for you. I’d probably need to know a specific town, rather than just central Iowa.

Well, those are my initial thoughts. Give this some thought, and get back in touch. My e-mail address is listed here. I sure hope this works out for you. As I said, I would have thought that you wouldn’t have such problems with a central Iowa location.

Dave

I forgot to throw in one thing that might be happening. I found out from my neighbor that there use to be a cattle lot real close to the pond, although the cattle were not in the pond there was the bi-product run off. This could be the reason the Duckweed, and Watermeal are so aggressive. I have been on the phone with a Sod farm, a lanscaping company and a trucking company trying to find someone that may be interested in cleaning it out for the dirt. I think I would like to start there and drain it down. This would allow me to build structure to my liking and start with a fresh bottom and sides. I think this might be my best plan to battle the floaters. What do you all think?

FH

Fishhead- It sounds like you are discribing my pond. I live in central IA.( just south of Des Moines ) I have a 2.75 ac pond 15ft at the deep end built in the late 50's with about the same amount of field run off, a very bad weed problem..But NO FISH KILL.You probaly have more trees than i do. Iowa has had one of the worst dry spells last year and this past winter I have ever seen, almost no rain, and only a few quick snow storms in the area. recently we have seen a complete 180 with more rain than we can stand within a very short period. ( mid april- most of may)My question to the pros is.. Could Fish head and myself be seeing a lot more weed seeds being washed into the ponds from the fields than normal? I can hardly cast a lure into the pond without snaging some type of pond rooted vegetation. I will be adding grass carp and weed killer to help tame the beast.We also have a large tick problem this spring ( just ask my dog!)

Mr. Willy,

In case I misunderstood your statement regarding "Weed Seeds" I wouldn't think aquatic weeds seeds would wash in from a terrestrial field.

I believe your lower water levels last year allowed weed growth to take off due to a higher concentration of fertility due to less water, and sunlight reaching farther down due to less water depth. You may also be getting more nutrients this spring from all the wash in, but not "weed seeds."

I believe most aquatic weeds make their way in via birds and adding water with fish that has aquatic "seeds" or fragments from other ponds. However algae is everywhere.

I took several canoe trips around the pond this past weekend and have not measured it but would bet with perfect conditions I can see with out polorized glasses down at least 8 ft. I also can see that the vegitation is emerging from as far down as I can see. I have been reading some on the lime and fertilizer to grow algea. Would any one suggest doing this or will that happen naturally? I have also read suggestions of 20% of pond should be weeds. Is this surface area, or a total body of water figure?

Last question, Is Roundup a product that can be used to spray on emergent vegitation, if it is mixed with a can of Coke to stick it to the plant leaves?

Thanks again for your responces!
FH