Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Building a dam Building a 10 - 12 acre lake

In theory if you can get a siphon going you are going to pull a lot of water through that pipe. As long as the output end of the pipe is below the input by even a small elevation (remember water seeks its own level) it will keep siphoning. I'd also be curious to know if any one as had success with such a large siphon line as my pond is almost completely a dug out. I get very good flow due to very large water shed but if it ever requires draw down of any significance it will require either pump or siphon.

We put together a syphon device using 6 inch PVC pipe and it worked very very well. It took us a while to get it going (its very hard to get the air out of the line since gravity will push the water back down into the lake on the lake side of the syphon). Our lake is about 8 acres and we pulled the lake down about 8 feet in less than one week. If you have a way to use a pump to charge the syphon, I suppose it would be easier to start. We filled the line using 5 gallon buckets thru a t-joint at the top on the syphon. We capped both ends of the syphon and unscrewed the caps at the same time to start the syphon. It took us about 4 tries to start the syphon. Once it started, it shot a solid 6 inch stream of water about 6 feet. It was coming out with such force that it would knock you down if you got in front of it. One thing for sure, it will pull alot of water out and quickly.
Bill

Jeff, A 6" pump can only withstand about 40' of head pressure. You can rent those at any rental center. Depending on the slope you are pumping over, you may get it to go a bit more or less than 40'.

Rangersedge,
I used a 4" temp. siphon on my small pond & it worked well the first time I drained it. However the pond filled back up before I could clear the original drain so I tried it again. Everything went well for 3 days then it just stopped. I had seen a 6" turtle in the pond & suspect it got stuck on the inlet stopping the siphon which allowed air to gurgle up the outlet. It is much more difficult to start the siphon when the water level is 20' down the dam face.
Recommend: 1)Use a basket or some device on the inlet. 2)If you float the inlet be sure it's suspended well below the surface to prevent sucking air when it creates a whirlpool. 3)6" gate valves are expensive (I found one at a salvage co. for $125.00) & I think unnessesary. PVC ball valves will work fine.
I like your idea for starting the syphon ie: combo. of valves ect.

Thanks for the information regarding siphoning. It was reassuring to hear how quickly a 6” line will siphon out a pond. If it will do 8 acres 8 feet in less than a week, it will hopefully do about 12 acres 15 feet in three weeks or less (some of that 12 acres will be much shallower than 15 average). I’ll also check into getting the PVC ball valve vs. gate valve if the ball valve is cheaper. That could save me some money and work just as well. I’m now feeling pretty confident regarding the siphon system.

A couple other questions…

We dug the spillway down 5 feet from the top of the dam. After reading and talking with others more, I'm really tempted to try filling back in about three feet of that (we stacked the removed dirt nearby). If I do that, the lake will be slightly larger and obviously three feet deeper. My island will be smaller unless I use dug out topsoil to build it up - which I probably would. Would I really gain anything appreciable by the extra lake depth / size or is that something that could always be done later? Lake is about 650 yards long, probably about 650 feet wide at widest, somewhat curving, no trees from west for about a mile. Somewhat protected from other directions. What are your thoughts as to leaving only two feet of freeboard?

Eight months ago, I couldn't have dreamed it, but now I'm seriously considering not stocking largemouth bass. I'm really considering stocking smallmouth bass, hybrid stripers, and walleyes as the predator fishes. I realize that reproduction of any of those species may not occur and that I would run the risk of bluegill stunting at 4" or so. We have some other ponds with largemouth bass up to 7 pounds that I could transfer from if needed. Some have told me that this arrangement could work, others have said stock largemouth, bluegill, redear, and forget it. What are your thoughts about not initially stocking largemouth? Should I stock some of the smallmouth bass, hybrid stripers, and walleyes just to satisfy my desire for variety; but stock largemouth to make sure it works with as little management as possible?

Thanks!

Rangersedge-for your trespasser worries get a bunch of "traps" or "warning- beaver traps" "hidden animal traps" type of signs. trespassers know how to ignore "no trespassing" signs but they wont walk around a lake where they think there are large bear traps hidden on the ground.

Small Mouths spawn in lakes, and as far as I know don't need current to spawn. I read a paper done by the wisconsin DNR on spawning success of SMB in a seepage lake, no inlet, no outlet, no current. Not surprising thier bass spawned every year.
SMB do produce fewer eggs than LMB, a SMB female lays about 8,000 eggs per pound of body wieght. LMB lay about 13,000 per pound.
I hope to put SMB in my 10 acre pond (currently under construction) in the next couple years.
Your walleyes won't spawn with out a miricale, a river, or a lot of rock on a ton of shoreline.

Mixing up the predators on a lake like this might require you to mix up the prey too. None of the fish you mentioned do very well on BG. Have you considered yellow perch? Golden shiners? Muddminnows? I don't have all the answers on those fish but it seems like they might have a place in your pond.

Mark: I’ve thought about getting some signs made. I’ve actually considered having a sign made that says to the effect “the local health authority has determined eating fish from this water may be hazardous to your health”. I’m the local health authority (seriously) and I’d be mad enough to endanger their health if I caught them so it would technically be accurate… Doubt if I actually do that though…

TyW33: I’ve never even seen a yellow perch and don’t know if they could live around here. Although I would prefer a variety and the more exotic fish like smallmouth, walleye, and hybrid striped bass; I may wind up going ahead with stocking some largemouth in it to help control the bluegill. I may stock the LMB later and at a lower than normally recommended rate to give the smallmouth and others a bit of a competitive advantage for however long that would last. I don’t know. I guess it is good that I still have about a year to think about it.

A friend of mine (who has his masters in biology) called me today to retract his previous advice of just stocking bluegill, redear, and bass then managing just for the bluegill. He had talked with a fisheries consultant about my pond. That person told him that crappie would probably be fine in my sized pond as long as I gave the other fish (bass, bluegill, etc.) a couple years’ head start.

I’m beginning to think this lake construction / fish management stuff is 2/3rd science, 1/3rd art, and 3/5 magic or something. I’ve learned that I still have a lot to learn! ;-)

Just a quick update to say that my lake is almost full. Just a matter of inches to go before she is full. :-)

And then I'll mark off all the areas where the water level came and drain the rascal... ;-(

down to a depth of about 10 feet so I can do some more work this summer.

We stocked 40 pounds of fathead minnows (10 - 16,000?) in it last August so I figure the extra time without any other fish will probably help boost their numbers.

Thinking would possibly stock bluegill & redear either this fall or next spring with other fish next fall or following spring. Still reading and getting advice in what time I have.

Rangersedge,
It's gota be a drag to drain it after finally getting it full but I'm sure with all thought & foresight you've given this lake it's gonna be the envy of pond owners
I have a sneaky feeling you won't be through working on it even when you think you're finished. If you're like me there'll always be something else you'll want to do.
Did you ever get an answer on raising the spillway? I would think it would have alot to do with the amount of watershed you have. I don't know the numbers but if lake size matches watershed + stream input then I would think 2ft of freeboard would be fine.

Ric:

Yes. A lot of people think I'm crazy and it would be financially better to postpone the work, but I know it will be much better long term once get all of the sediment basins in with forage stocked in them and etc. so forging ahead.

Watershed is about a 10 to 1 ratio. It has filled up in about 8-9 months?

You're right that I will probably never "finish" it.

I've resigned myself to not raise the spillway height for some time. Maybe 10 or 15 or 20 years down the road when want to drain it again for whatever reason... I can always do that fairly easily...

Jeff

We've received a lot of rain over the past few days and my lake is now overflowing. About a four inch deep stream going over the spillway. Doesn't seem to be cutting in so looks good.

Keep a close eye on it .. once it starts if it starts ...

We've received around 7" of rain the last few days. At one point, an eight foot wide one foot deep stream was running over my spillway. So far, so good though. I haven't noticed any sloughing on the dam or much cutting on the spillway. I did notice LOTS of inch long minnows and several crawfish in the grass near the bottom of the spillway. Hoping that means the fatheads have spawned and they are thick as can be as haven't put any other fish in there.

Here is a link to a few recent pictures that my nephew is hosting for me on his website.

http://www.fryesonline.com/gallery/pages/showgallery.php?sgid=JeffLake&gid=

As an understatement, you can be justifiably proud of your lake, Rangersedge.

I needed to relax some yesterday so I went up to my lake. I rode my ATV near the shore and was pleased to see fathead minnows about every place I stopped. As I made my way around it, I was starting to feel pretty good.

When I was almost done, I noticed a black cloud of tiny fish about a foot in diameter... Ding! I've read too much on here to ignore that. I jumped off and managed to catch one. It was a stupid yellow belly catfish about an inch long!

Like many of the other posters with this problem, I have no idea how that could have happened except that someone "helped" me out. No pond anywhere up drainage that they could have came from. Not really any way they could have came up over the dam from downstream. All the books say forget our feathered fiends as the source...

I guess I no longer have to worry that someone will "help" me out. I'd sure like to "help" out whoever "helped" me out, but I'll probably never find out who that was.

I'll try to get rid of those. They were close to the bank last night. Tonight, I thought I'd try a net of some type to catch them and even thought about shooting into the water (I would take safety precautions) near them hoping that the shock wave would bring them up or kill them.

I had planned to delay stocking fish other than fatheads until next year. Should I go ahead and stock this year in light of this development or will the predator fish catch up to eliminate them even if they have a big headstart?

...I'll post / review again info also over in the other more appropriate threads. This has become like a one thread journal of its progress.

Ranger, that's enough to make a person sick, you've done a ton of work trying to do things the "right" way, and now this. Hopefully it's not that bad, and it's something the predators will eventually control. I would become a "little" more agressive on the stocking program, you now have an undesireable addition to the forage base. Get the bass going strong, it's a lot of fun when you're "forced" to cull the bass ! Good eating too

Rangersedge, could you comment on how isolated your lake is? Do other people live near by? Do you see signs of other people having been around like footprints? etc.

As you've mentioned about other threads on this topic of bullheads, it seems so many pond owners have this scenario of a new pond (isolated from other fish water habitats), but still finding bullheads.

Then it makes you wonder why someone would catch or get some bullheads and then transport them to some other lake. Certainly, this may happen at some ponds, but to think that this happens all around the nation; that trespassers are coming in and "spiking" our ponds with bullheads.

The water was a bit choppy, but I found them (I've only seen one bunch) again last night. I had stopped at wally world and bought the best net type thing I could find. That was a swimming pool leaf skimmer and it didn't work well. I'm guessing I got maybe a fourth to a third of them. The net's rim was plastic and it just bent back way too far when I drew it quickly through the water. I'll try to find them again tonight.

To have spawned, I'm guessing a couple adult fish were put in there last fall. The dam is 30-40 feet tall from the backside and it never overflowed until recently (posted here).

I can't understand why anyone would have put them in there intentionally. I'm well liked. Maybe someone didn't know that bullheads are bad? Still, I would have thought that anyone who knew about the lake would have known my stance on stocking it, trespassing, etc. though...

The lake is about a quarter mile from two roads and about a half mile from two others. You can't see it from any of them though and a person would have to trespass on my ground on foot for quite a ways from any direction to reach it (unless they drove through a field).

I can't figure out how the catfish got in it. I wouldn't think they would have been in with the fatheads by mistake. They look different and I wouldn't think that hatcheries would even raise bullheads.

They're in though so now I've got to figure out what to do. I've gotten a lot of cinder blocks and concrete slabs. I had planned to put those in there for structure and to keep sand / gravel in spawning areas from washing into main lake body. Those cinder blocks would give minnows a good place to hide. I wanted that, but I don't want those bullheads to have a place to hide... Emotionally, I want every single one of them gone now. Logically, after reading other posts about how vulnerable they are to predation at this age, I'm thinking that I'll remove all I can, proceed with previous plans, and hope the other fish can eliminate them in the future.

Still planning to partially drain the pond very soon (as soon as get more time), make sure the minimum depth will be three feet, build sediment basins, create more contours on the bottom and sides, place the blocks and concrete, haul in sand/gravel, and etc.

I hadn't posted an update for a long time. Here's a real quick one.

I never got the lake drained down like planned. Mainly due to time constraints.

I talked with a fisheries biologist for quite a while earlier this week when requesting an application for fish stocking*. I need to get that sent back before August 31st so need to decide soon on some things.

* $25 application + $1 per acre - price will increase significantly next year.

We had a good conversation. He suggested the bluegill, redear combination at 1000 total per acre stocked this fall with 100 channel cats per acre, then stocking largemouth bass at 100 per acre next year. Said for a lake this size, they might even bring them out to the site.

I asked about walleye, smallmouth, and hybrid striped bass. He said I'd need to be aware that walleye would almost certainly just be a put and take situation. Like most here, he said don't mix largemouth and smallmouth as the largemouth will take over. Seems like said about largemouth could be more dependable at controlling bluegill populations. Seems like he said he wasn't aware of anyone around this area utilizing hybrid striped bass as sportfish in ponds - mainly just commercially.

I need to decide real soon exactly how to stock it... Any last minute reassurances or suggestions?

We also talked about pipes through the dam vs. spillways. He is apparently an advocate of pipes drain pipes with anti-seep collars through the dams. I think the main reason was to remove the bad water from the lake bottom, but also ease in controlling water levels. Too late now, but made me wonder again if I shouldn’t have gone with a drain pipe in the bottom.

Seemed like a real nice guy and was an interesting conversation.

Nephew who works for a construction company brought home a fancy laser level so we shot the elevations and such. Decided we can raise the spillway about two feet without messing things up too much. It is currently about five feet below top of dam so that would leave plenty of safety margin.

We also measured my island. It is 311 feet tip to tip and shaped more like a banjo than I realized. The big part where I'd like to put a gazebo is 105 feet wide. The remainder is about 65 feet wide on average. In other words, about half an acre. The island is lower than the dam and is somewhat sloped towards the dam. I realized it during construction and would have preferred it the same height and level, but decided against insisting. I now regret that I didn't insist and offer to pay extra to ensure it was the same height and level. Now, I have a great stand of nice green grass which I hate to tear up and have to reseed if I redo... ...

Someday... I'll build that gazebo, deepen the levels and raise / level the island.

First priority is getting those sediment ponds finished - especially after reading Otto's article. I'll probably also have done or do a bit of work to make sure an alternate spillway is lower than the dam just in case we get a huge flood.

The application for fish stocking was sent in on August 30th so should be getting some real fish in it before too long.

Mowed around the lake and the island. Made it look nice; but now have goose explosion. Mother and sister counted over 130 on my island before they stopped counting. They estimated over 200. My island is now covered with goose droppings. I'm getting a goose stamp and some friends and I are going hunting!

Also, had a revelation today. I'd been noticing funny looking ugly "ducks" that dove down and stayed underwater a long time. This afternoon, a brother, his wife and I watched some of them and the thought hit me... Could those be cormorants? Surely not! Those are a southern problem... Well tonight, I pulled up pictures and range data. I think those weird ducks are cormorants!

Someone should have warned me that this lake stuff isn't like instant pudding! You can't just pick out some land, pay some money, and have a great lake with lots of great fish / wildlife, admiring women, and envious friends.

It is still worth it, but it sure isn't simple!

Hey Ranger!
Even if you don't shoot them, harrassing the geese will help keep them away. We don't hunt ponds more than once every week for fear of the geese not comming back.
How far away from your house are the geese? When out of season you can use some of those "pop boom" shotgun shells that will fire a small explosive like an m80 firecracker over to where the geese are.
We don't pluck the geese. Just expose the breast & remove two very nice filets! Great bbq'd!

Just a quick update to say that 900 largemouth bass about 1.5" - 2" long were released into the pond today.