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This 3.5 acre E. Texas pond was started fourteen months ago with its first stocking of FHM's, CNBG and RES. Supplemental stocking 11 months ago with additional RES and FHM's, along with a first stocking of Red Swamp crawfish and Tilapia. Seven months ago pond was stocked with TFS and 300 Overtons CBLMB (Texas legacy LMB fingerlings). Pond has 3 Texas Hunter feeders (used for feeding the CNBG, FHM's and Tp). Our lmb forage plans have been steered towards Gregg Grimes writings here on this forum, and from the information that was provided @ this past PB conference and with recommendations from Todd Overton. The ponds forage was stocked, with the plans of having a couple of spawns prior to introducing the lmb. Water has been fertilized and maintained its Sochi dish reading @ 18"+-. And the pH has been maintained at or around 8.4. Surface water temp has been running most recently @ 52 degrees.
Overtons Fisheries has been requested to do an Electroshock survey and we are waiting on the water temps to rise before we start our survey. So here is where I would ask for your comments and or recommendations. Our goal, as many of you know, is to grow some large LMB. And to have as many as possible in this 3.5 acre pond. So, what would you look for in this E shock survey? What surface water temp would you look for to start your survey? E shock before the spawn or after the lmb spawn? Would the survey effect the spawning of the lmb, if performed prior to the spawn? And how many large lmb would you expect a pond like this to support? Our weather had a warmer fall and winter this past year and we are hoping for an additional spawn in the CNBG. One more thing, 50 7" HSB were added to the pond this past fall. I hoped this might take some of the future fishing pressure off the lmb. These can be reduced or removed through fishing if we decide to at a later date.
Thanks for thoughts smile

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 02/13/16 10:14 AM. Reason: add on

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I would hold off the survey until fall. Would do a seine survey in June and gather data. In the fall look at population analysis and RW.
















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Tracy,

I'm surprised you are doing a survey so soon after stocking. Is that a common practice?


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A little early IMO but it will provide some good early data and could ID any problems.

Spring is to early but fall would,work if you have info and questions ready.
















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ewest, Thanks for your recommendation. And Bill this might explain why. With deeper water depths of 7 to 9 ' just off the shoreline, along with submerged cover, seining would not be an easy or successful task. In the one area where seining might be possible, I think the area would be to small to evaluate the ponds fish. In my attempt to manage a lmb fishery, I feel like it will be necessary to electroshock asap. Holding off on the survey might set my plans back longer than planned. If I wait till fall 2016 to do so, and I need to make adjustments as to numbers, sex and size(keeping the best females and eliminating any high numbers of males) of the lmb. Adjusting lmb fingerlings in the spring of 2017 will not work, so I would have to growout them till at least the fall of 2017 or longer into the 2017 year.
#1 - where should water temps be to get the best possible survey?
#2 - Will a pre spawn shock harm the spawning fish?
#3 - will this survey give a realistic ratio of lmb to forage?
Any thoughts?

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 02/14/16 06:37 PM. Reason: correction

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How big we're the LMB at stocking ? Did the talipia overwinter or die off ?
Did the TFS spawn ?

IMO surveying 10 mth old LMB during the spawn or just after is not going to tell you much. A seine survey only requires a couple of runs 40 feet long.

Best temps are around 70 F when O 2 is high at all/most depths. An ESS is only a small sample. ESS over the LMB spawn can be used to reduce yoy LMB survival. I would only ESS over BG when bedding if I wanted to reduce the BG spawn survival .

In answer to your # 3 I would say not much that you can't tell otherwise. -- to early in the population cycle . As a general matter you do not need to manage the original LMB stockers but instead it's their offspring that must be managed.

Last edited by ewest; 02/14/16 07:30 PM.















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Tracy, talk to Al (FIH) about his thoughts on timing. He did it last year and only one large bass had moved in shallow.


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Ok Guys, ewest and Dave, you two guys have way more experience than I do about our ponds. And your comments are not what I wanted to hear. smile I understand wildlife and fish management takes time. I just thought starting the management survey early would help me get to where I wanted to be in a more reasonable amount of time. Looks like 2 or 3 generations before I might see the results. And I was thinking I would be able to adjust direction at this early stage.
Ewest, 300 LMB 2" fingerlings added first week of last June. My one sample of lmb in Nov. produced a 13.5" lmb. I would expect a 15" lmb this March or April. And the Tp look to have died off @ the end of January. I saw few in the 2 to 3" size, most floaters were larger.
TFS, I have no idea if they spawned, I have tried using a casting net for surveys, but my casting produces few large circles when thrown. frown. Maybe Al(FIH) will join in to tell of his spring e shock survey. I hope he will see this. He has always been helpful here. I saw a picture he posted one time and there as a good looking net on a spool. I wonder if I could talk him into doing a net survey while I watched? Hehe smile He might not be interested or have the time. And like ewest, he wants me to get wet up to my head and pull a heavy net through the water, I think he might be laughing to himself, thinking "watch this" lol
Any more thoughts? How long does it take, before a person gets a real look into his water? In a LMB pond, Is an educated guess the norm?

Tracy


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You can gather valuable info now through a variety of methods and you should do so and write down the info so Todd can look at it with you and answer the questions. Keep catch records with RW date and a pic of some BG and LMB and HSB. Seine survey can be done by one person with a 40 ft X 4 ft net from Walmart. There is a thread here on it but I will include a link below. Watch your water temps and note when the LMB and BG spawn. Look for water dimpling early in am and late in afternoon in areas of open water after plankton bloom in spring and early summer. That will be TFS eating . If you see that then they survived and probably spawned. Your LMB should be able to spawn this spring if 12 in +-.

See this pg 16 - 17

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1428.pdf

Last edited by ewest; 02/16/16 10:21 AM.















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ewest thanks for the information. I have read this Miss. booklet before and I should read it every so often as a refresher. I am thinking, I just need more time and let the pond tell me what it needs.

Tracy


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Yes I agree and stress for all here the importance of gathering data before you have a pro out to ESS. Also write down your questions well in advance.
















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Here is a pic of my Overton's Camelot Bell Bass at 17mo from 2" fingerlings. Stocked 12ac pond with FHM and CNBG for forage, also had some Green sunfish that got in there before I could get it stocked. Pretty excited about what the next year has in store.

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Nice fish - be sure to manage the offspring.
















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Originally Posted By: kklegend
Here is a pic of my Overton's Camelot Bell Bass at 17mo from 2" fingerlings. Stocked 12ac pond with FHM and CNBG for forage, also had some Green sunfish that got in there before I could get it stocked. Pretty excited about what the next year has in store.


kkl,
Nice looking CB LMB. I love the color and mottling on these fish. I stocked some of the same on May 30th last spring at 2 1/4". By September 26th I caught one ~11". I haven't been able to hook up on another one since. I have a ton of forage fish stocked from a year earlier. I managed to have some GSF as well as Dollar Sunfish that showed up with the water too. I guess there is too much live bait in the water for the LMB to fool with anything artificial. Yes, it should be an exciting year.


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Come on give us a break. Maybe we don't all see the need for en electrofishing survey right now. But I can clearly see the need for a current snapshot. Here is why..

There was (maybe still is) some concern that LMB fingerling survival rates were low. The fingerlings were in great shape and went into the pond smoothly, but we had been getting reports that very few LMB have been seen or caught since stocking. Also from my last chat with TGW1, the thread-fin shad had not been seen since stocking. We are ahead of the thread fin shad spawn, with time to make adjustments. Who cares if we disturb a spawning bass? Call it management of bass offspring, for what it is worth. This lake has been on a fertilization program and text-book stocking program. The plankton bloom made it difficult to see the fish, but I have high hopes and fingers crossed. Performing a survey now seems quite legitimate to me, with the following goals in mind (add to them if you wish, TGW1):

1. Assess the overall lake health and status
2. Assess Legacy largemouth bass population status and growth rates since stocking
3. Harvest any Legacy males or slow growers as needed (more important down the road)
4. Assess thread fin shad population status (leaving us time to restock before the April spawn)
5. Assess OTS bluegill and redear sunfish population status
5. Formulate a 2016 management plan based on the current status, and keep moving forward.


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Thanks for posting the report KKLegend!! Thanks to the creative energy of the pond boss forum, we are now calling those genetics Lone Star Legacy Bass. I will post pics of this year's set of Legacy Bass breeding stock as soon as we pick out breeders.


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Todd, I'm with you and agree about the e-shock. What about adding crappie to the pond as forage for the largemouth bass? That's what he wanted to do about a month ago. What are your thoughts about that?


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This is a great forum, gives many of us a way to bounce things off of some very talented and experienced people here. I thank everyone who has ever taken the time to discuss such things as crappie for lmb forage. And Thank you KKL for showing your Lone Starr Legacy photo. I would be proud to have that 17 mo. old in my pond smile And to share my thoughts on surveying early in this ponds life, I would say many things swing me toward wanting a survey at this time. Pond management for one. I also live with chronic pain and seining would make my day a little tougher. So shocking would help me over seining.
#1, Like Stickem, only one LMB has been caught since stocking and that was in Nov. I consider myself to be a good fisherman, I have won several lmb tournaments and I know how to fish, and like Stickem, I think lack of catching may be due to high forage stocking rates of FHM's,CNBG,RES,TFS and TP. Others here might learn that heavy stocking of forage may slow the lmb bite, if that is the situation here.
#2, No lmb has been seen in the shallows after stocked, may be due to fertilization. Reduced visibility into the water when keep at or near 18" LMB survivability questioned?
#3, LMB numbers for pond management. Many posts here on this forum has recommended stocking 50 lmb per acre. I went with 85, I would like to see when and where I am at, giving me a better game plan.
#4, I saw this past 11 months, when stocking Tp with no predators, they reproduce like crazy and this yr they may have lived through our winter here. We had a big die off of Tp in January. This brought in Commorants, and on two occasions I had 50 + on the pond an will see one or two daily during and after Tp winter die off. We checked the pond everyday for these birds. I turned a feeder on 4 days ago and yesterday I know I saw maybe a few Tp at the feeder along with CNBG. This might change my future Tp stocking.
#5, Tp became feeder hogs to the point I saw fewer CNBG at the feeders as we entered this past fall. What are the CNBG doing as far as numbers, size etc. And have seen only two Res since stocked.
#6, Commorants, after one of the big groups of birds I found 2 HBS yoy dead and floating, 100 floating 3 to 4"TFS and 2 - 7" CNBG dead and floating and 2 RES floating. How much damage did they do to the pond?

I have a goal with this pond and I hope ESS will help me make adjustments as needed, even if it might not answer all the questions I have.
Looking back on this post, maybe I should have told all this before I asked opinions, I just did not want it to be a long post, I am long winded as it is. smile And as several have suggested in this past year, I listen to Todd when he makes recommendations. Thank again Todd and Walt has also helped when asked.


PS, adding a scarecrow at the pond seamed to have helped in reducing the visits from those dam birds

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 02/17/16 08:13 PM. Reason: sp

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Wow Trace
That's alot of cormorants to have all at once. I only have seen one dying tilapia so far so maybe a few survived. I would try a shotgun to deter them a little..... I'm with you on working with Todd to see what you got in your puddle. I would think your LEGS are doing fine..... My bass seem to like white crappie curly tail jig 1/16 oz or 1/32. I have caught them more on small baits than large baits.

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Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Wow Trace
That's alot of cormorants to have all at once. .....


+1000! That alone would be a reason for me to want to get a survey done. That many WTs can do an incredible amount of damage to a fish population in a very short amount of time.


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We haven't discussed crappie that I can remember. I cringe a little bit subconsciously every time somebody asks about crappie, but have learned to deal with it professionally LOL. It's up to TGW1 and we would be there holding his hand if he decides to stock em. I have seen crappie work well (also hybrid crappie) in small productive ponds that are forage rich (thread fin shad) and predator heavy (LMB/HSB). As for the feasibility of crappie as forage fish? As a predator themselves, crappie seem to be an inefficient and subversive link in the food chain for Legacy bass and Glazener HSB as top-end predators.


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Re: Crappie.

Todd, thank you for the reply. This is why I asked: Growing extra large LMB with crappie as forage


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esshup, I met up a person who regularly post here, I will not say who, but a pond owner. And he said to me "Are you serious about the crappie, don't do it". I told him I was interested in what people had to say about it. This forum is a good place to listen to others opinions on such things as Crappie being forage for lmb.

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 02/18/16 08:17 AM. Reason: sp

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Tracy, that person also has bullheads and channel catfish in his pond, along with crappie. I agree with him. His goals are also different than yours for your respective ponds.


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Why would you risk putting crappie into a pond smaller than 40 or more acres? I have not read material/studies from any state conservation department that would make that recommendation. In fact, I think the Illinois DNR would tell you don't put any crappie in a body of water less than 60 acres.
Our 6.5 acre pond had a bad crappie problem about 15 years ago that took several years to solve. Keep every crappie you catch in a smaller pond or lake. Call your friends in the spring and recruit them to catch crappie. Do whatever you have to do to get rid of them. They compete for the same food as smaller to intermediate sized LMB. Use bluegill for the forage base and you will be much happier in the long run....at least based on my (albeit somewhat limited) experience.
Best of luck and have fun whatever you choose.


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