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just trying to keep things as simple as possible. It ain't easy in today's world!

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Bobby,

Grass pickerel cross with NP, and that cross might be more tolerant of warmer water. Also, the artesian flow in FL is probably on the cool side, so a pond fed by that water might handle the cross well.

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Turtle,

I have a couple of smaller lakes I fish that have them in it I guess from the Game and Fish. I would like to talk with one of them and ask them what / why did they put them in there for what reason?? What are they trying to accomplish. I would like to know what they think there best use is for them.... We have caught most of ours on zoom super flukes and top water frogs.

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Originally Posted By: Turtlemtn
Bobby,

Grass pickerel cross with NP, and that cross might be more tolerant of warmer water. Also, the artesian flow in FL is probably on the cool side, so a pond fed by that water might handle the cross well.


you think the NP are more warm tolerant than Musky? It seems the musky range is a bit more southerly than NP. (TN and KY)
I have no Idea really how warm tolerant they are. I wonder if they might be more like SMB and can handle the temps but just need O2. I know of a lake in Lexington KY that is stocked with WE. It has aeration and they do pretty darn good.


Last edited by BobbyRice; 02/11/16 02:57 PM.

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I don't know if there's much difference in the tollerance of NP and muskies for warm water, but the red fin and grass pickerel are found farther south than CP, and NP and grass/red fin cross naturally in NE. Also, I haven't heard of a muskie/pickerel cross. Maybe a pickerel could cross with a female tiger. I wonder if anyone's tried that?

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I see chain pickerels around local ponds a lot around me. Big ones too.
If I hade the room etc, I would try a cross for sure.

Last edited by BobbyRice; 02/11/16 06:27 PM.

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CP cross naturally with NP in the northeastern part of the country, so maybe the cross would produce good fishing farther south.

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I looked online a little at them those CPxNP hybrids look really cool. Some seemed to get pretty good size. I wonder how they would do down here with a longer growing season. you know if they are sterile? Seems like a lot of them in that lake system. They might be good for Midwestern at least if not southern pond that musky x NP hybrids might not do well. The chain pickerel genes could offer more heat tolerance.

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I just got an answer to a question I posed to a MO Fisheries Programs Specialist some time back. A MO website said: "Missouri's numberless farm ponds are bulging with fish. You can...throw out a worm for almost any species." I asked, why not pickerel? And his reply is:

"Pickerels prefer rivers and streams and will not thrive for long in ponds. The habitat and food sources in ponds are not what pickerels need, and they are outcompeted (and preyed upon) by largemouth bass."

I guess he was telling me why they don't survive in ponds rather than why MO won't allow them to be stocked, but I think there's ample evidence that they do survive in ponds.

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Turtlemtn,
I would try to engage in friendly dialogue, always giving him plenty of respect for his position and expertise. I would explore more your options. You can agree with his position that perhaps it won't be so advisable for everyone but you would like to test it out in your own private pond and are willing to take the losses on your own account if it doesn't work out. Try to explore if it is not advised or illegal. It sounds like they are purposing straying away from giving you a yes/no on the legal issue by scaring you off based on practicality reasonings.

I have the same situation with HSB in Michigan. It is a grey area. I was first told it can't be done because they won't do well, or they aren't suited for small ponds, or they won't reproduce so they aren't a good idea. Obviously folks here on the PB forums think otherwise, and in Michigan not reproducing is fine with me as that is one of my goals, control predator numbers. The HSB are not on the excluded "invasive species" list and thus I started some dialogue with the DNR.

We had several very civil email exchanges. I then gently tested the situation to determine if this was a legal issue or just an advisory against it. When I tested where the boundaries were, the DNR officer brought my case up the chain to his superiors. They decided that since my pond has no inflow or outflow and no access to other water that they really had no jurisdiction over my pond. It was like fingernails on the chalkboard for them to admit that, but that was the verdict. They still strongly suggested against it. They really wanted me to use flathead catfish or channel cats and bluegill instead but admitted that they could not prevent me from putting them in my pond.

They still felt I was crazy to do so, but I was hopeful that I could get a listening ear by explaining how HSB would serve my goals very uniquely and how I'm hoping to stay well within the reach of what is legal. I gently asked if it could be allowable to do something a bit out of the norm for them and it was clear that this makes them uncomfortable. In fact the knowledge and experience they brought to bear on this is about a whole generation behind what is being actively done/discussed here on this forum.

After the Flint, MI water crisis some shaking up might take place in the Michigan DEQ/DNR, local EPA office etc.

So, see if you can be a test case (providing your pond doesn't have a situation where overflow could directly put them in a river or nearby lake where it would be a potential problem) Offer to have them come and check up on your progress from time to time? Tell him to take his fishing rod.


Last edited by canyoncreek; 03/01/16 03:16 PM.
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Canyoncreek - Good comment and approach for Turtlemtn - If you decide to add some HSB to your pond take pictures of them as they progress to show DNR how well HSB will perform in your area. DNR can always learn new management concepts. State agencies are extremely slow to change philosophy.

Chain pickerel will survive fine in ponds. In fact without adequate LMB predation and the right habitat (spawning structure) the CP could become overpopulated. Even in marginal pond conditions CP will likely recruit a few fish either periodically or annually.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
DNR can always learn new management concepts.


yep , kinda like when they told me there is no law stopping me from putting a flounder in a freshwater pond, but if I did it would die because it was a saltwater fish.


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I've talked to this fisheries specialist before, by phone and by email, and we've discussed pickerel, among other things. He's been very pleasant and helpful. It's just that when I saw this statement on their website extolling the great variety of fish, “almost any species,” that can be caught in MO ponds, it got my goat a bit. He answered as if we were discussing natural conditions, but the website referred to farm ponds, i.e., stocked ponds.

I've already learned that pickerel are not on MO's list of approved species. The list was prepared in the '50s, and it's a waste of time trying to get anything added to it, or so I've been told. But I thought I might send him some “testimonials” by people who have or have had pickerel in their ponds and are pleased with the fish. I would show that under the right conditions they do thrive in ponds and explain that it's in the context of private stocking that I contacted him. The problem would be, as canyoncreek said, to appear congenial and not argumentative.

Maybe if pickerel become more popular in parts of the county where they are legal, pressure will be put on MO to add them to their list and they will find a way to do that.

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Sounds like you have a good dialogue going with the guy. Have you just come out and told him you want to try stocking them and asked what you need to do to apply for a permit?


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If your pond is isolated with no streams entering nor exiting ask if it is possible to get a special stocking permit as a test pond so the benefit can be documented for MO information.

Hear this! After doing a little homework on the fishes that occur I neighboring states of MO, I found that CP occur in OK, MS, AK, and extreme western KY. An even more very interesting find is that according to Wm Pflieger (Fishes of Missouri) Chain pickerel do definitely occur in Missouri in the "south east region of the Ozarks from Eleven Point River east to the St Francis. In the Current Rv it occurs to the exclusion of grass pickerel". Even the MO Dept of Conservation list the chain pickerel as present in MO. Armed with this information, I do not understand how the MO Fisheries Program specialist can tell you that you cannot bring in CP to your pond. You could even go to areas of MO and catch your own stockers! Or a bird could even be said to transport them as eggs into your pond.
See the 2nd fish from the bottom of this link.
http://mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/field-guide/types/fishes?page=1
http://mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/field-guide/chain-pickerel

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Two problems: First, they're not legal in MO, and second, the only place I've found that sells them is an aquarium supply in FL that wants about $20 each. The first is the more serious problem. My initial question was about whether I could stock them. They can't be raised, sold, or stocked in this State. But they are native in southern MO.

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How do "they" prevent birds from stocking them into your pond??? How will they be able to prove that you stocked them or that you even have them I your pond?
If I really wanted them in my pond I would go fishing in my state's waters. The fish could follow me home as does a stray dog or cat. What about your neighbor putting them into your pond when you even told everyone to not trespass.

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I'm with Bill. That way if they even went so far as to do a genetic test, they would be found to match fish that are native to Mo.


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I lived between the Current and 11 Pt Rivers before moving here last year, but I didn't know either river had CP. For various reason, I never fished either of them. For the past 9 yr, I've only fished my own ponds.

The issue for me is as much about bureaucracies that don't serve the public as it is about the fish. I'd like to see pickerel readily available for anyone who wants to stock them. The reason I've been given isn't a biological one, it's a bureaucratic one. The list was made over half a century ago and it can't be changed. That's not the way things ought to work.

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Turtlemtn...Call MDC and get "permission" for Chain Pickerel if you want some. If you look at the "approved species list" for Missouri, neither Hybrid Striped bass or Hybrid Bluegill are on it, but are legal to stock. Being Native, the fish will be allowed, since also not "endangered".



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Does anyone in the whole US raise chain pickerel? Zetts in Drifting PA used to sell CP but they are not a current species. Evidently Zetts was able to spawn them in ponds and sell fingerlings. Reproducing chain pickerel in a pond could be a problem to too many predators that are not growing and not easy to remove.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Does anyone in the whole US raise chain pickerel? Zetts in Drifting PA used to sell CP but they are not a current species. Evidently Zetts was able to spawn them in ponds and sell fingerlings.


I don't know of any commercial growers but there is still Redneckfly if he can be persuaded to part with some. Would there be an issue transporting them across state lines?

Originally Posted By: redneckfly
As a follow-up to this, the chain pickerel experiment was a success. Put about 7 adult size CP in the pond...now it seems there are about 17,000 in there. We are having to remove them now to keep their numbers in check. Apparently they reproduce well in shallow, weedy small ponds. I think the bass are having a hard time controlling their numbers due to the vegetation in the pond. They are fun to catch though and add some nice diversity when the bass are not cooperative.


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Thanks for the encouragement. I plan to pursue this further.

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I talked to NE about raising CP. It's not impossible, but it would be quite a hassle. More hassle than I would want to get into. The source to the fish would have to be certified, 60 fish would be killed for examination and the rest of the lot would have to be kept in isolation (for a month, I think, but he might have said longer) . I think it would be possible to catch them in the wild in NE (but not in any other State) and build up you stock until you had enough to part with 60 for testing, but I didn't pursue that. I guess it would be the same procedure for any fish you're bringing in from out of State. He said he had gone through a lot of red tape with people trying to raise sauger and saugeye, and they failed.

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I've found that talking to one person in the department might not give you the correct answer. Ask to be sent copies of the regulations regarding that.

I've been told incorrect things about fish and permits by more than one person in more than one state........

And these people are in the fish and game or DNR office and supposedly in the department that handles fish.......


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