Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,902
Posts557,120
Members18,452
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,420
ewest 21,475
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,112
Who's Online Now
10 members (Justin W, Bing, Boondoggle, bstone261, DenaTroyer, Theo Gallus, Shorthose, Freg, Fishingadventure, RogersTailgate), 894 guests, and 191 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
T
TDUBYA Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
For anyone who has not seen my other post under site selection, Long story short, some helpful members here have told me it may be viable for me to try to renovate and enlarge a very small pond that is in a naturally low lying area with a small stream flowing thru it. I had to remove 4 hollow barrels that were laid end to end thru the dam that were acting as a culvert pipe for crossing the stream.

I've read the other posts on here about plugging a breached dam, but I'd be gracious for any advice or suggestions here. Especially how to knit the new and old soils together with equipment...pounding/pressing with bucket on backhoe? Or does someone have a totally different solution to plug it? Since it's so small, dig it all out and start over?...concrete?

In the end, I will be impounding (I'm totally guessing here) somewhere around 1/8 of an acre of water. I do not plan to put a drain pipe of any kind thru this particular area. It already has an emergency spillway. I guess the good news is to both the left and especially the right of the hole in the dam it is all naturally flowing land. I plan to use the siphon bottom drain system...once I'm able to fully wrap my mind around the concept of that.

Things to note...The rocks and cement board you may see in the hole don't really serve any purpose, I was just messing around. I know the small trees have to go regardless.

I'd greatly appreciate any input and advice.

Here's some pics

Attached Images
IMG_2040.JPG IMG_2049.JPG
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 977
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 977
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: TDUBYA
For anyone who has not seen my other post under site selection, Long story short, some helpful members here have told me it may be viable for me to try to renovate and enlarge a very small pond that is in a naturally low lying area with a small stream flowing thru it. I had to remove 4 hollow barrels that were laid end to end thru the dam that were acting as a culvert pipe for crossing the stream.

I've read the other posts on here about plugging a breached dam, but I'd be gracious for any advice or suggestions here. Especially how to knit the new and old soils together with equipment...pounding/pressing with bucket on backhoe? Or does someone have a totally different solution to plug it? Since it's so small, dig it all out and start over?...concrete?

In the end, I will be impounding (I'm totally guessing here) somewhere around 1/8 of an acre of water. I do not plan to put a drain pipe of any kind thru this particular area. It already has an emergency spillway. I guess the good news is to both the left and especially the right of the hole in the dam it is all naturally flowing land. I plan to use the siphon bottom drain system...once I'm able to fully wrap my mind around the concept of that.

Things to note...The rocks and cement board you may see in the hole don't really serve any purpose, I was just messing around. I know the small trees have to go regardless.

I'd greatly appreciate any input and advice.

Here's some pics



TDUBYA,
I'm no dirt pro, but I've learned a couple of things owning a pond and learning from this forum. I just enlarged a small livestock watering hole into a little over a 1/2 surface acre pond the summer of 2014. Your soil around your pond seems to be topsoil. When enlarging your pond, you better have access to some clay formation to form your barrier seal. I've read so many horror stories about leaking ponds...I was fortunate enough, out at my place that below 1' of topsoil the water well drilling records indicate that we had 90' of clay. We used clay from the expansion dig to line the pond and build up the levee's and dam area. It was brought to my attention that a "sheep's foot roller" is the correct implement to pack down clay. If you don't know what it is, look it up online. In my case, because it was an expansion and we had an over abundance of clay in the formation, we compacted with the D4 Cat dozer that was used to expand the pond. Good luck with your project. Keep posting photo's and asking a lot of questions.
Charlie


...when in doubt...set the hook...
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
T
TDUBYA Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
Thanks Charlie. I won't bore you with all the details, you can check my post in the site selection forum if interested about what all is going on. Short version: ive been digging by shovel and threw some of the muck on the top of the dam that is in good shape so I can get a good start of grass soon. The other I've just piled up and will remove with heavier equipment than my back and a shovel when I start the deepening/widening phase. Yes thanks to info here I've come to appreciate the need for compaction by sheepsfoot. The dam does have a good amount of clay in it as well as some other areas in and around this area. I'm hoping somewhere I can find enough to plug the dam. I'm just curious as to how to get things plugged correctly. I don't think I'll be able to get any equipment across the dam. I'm open to all ideas though...

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
First I will give a disclaimer. If you have high flow through amounts of water, that in my opinion is going to be a lot harder repair than if you only had occasional low amounts of overflow. Having gotten that out of the way, will give you some general tips I have picked over the years. They will not answer your specific questions, but might be helpful in formulating your own solutions.

There are several tricks you can do with equipment to get it to give you more compaction than would normally be associated with that piece of equipment.

A regular tractor or TLB can give you a lot of compaction by using the front tires to compact with the front end loader bucket full of dirt. The small tire with a heavy load on it will exert a lot of pressure on the ground and the lugged portion even more. I have used this to advantage packing in clay around pipes by running the tire width repeatedly along the side of the pipe, moving over the width of the tire, and repeating. Then split the middle on the next compaction pass. This is slow. You would not want to do a whole pond bottom this way. But it is an effective way to compact a small area fairly well. Ag tread tires works better than industrial tread in this application because the lugs are narrower and deeper and tend to knead the soil better, but either will work. Make sure soil moisture levels are conducive to good compaction. Add water if needed or let things dry some between packings if it is too wet.

A dozer can be operated in such a manner to compact better than the advertised PSI per square inch loading would indicate. Again, this is good only for specific small areas and not suitable for compacting large areas. First of all, the grouser bars exert a lot more pressure than the overall track. So repeated passes. Many, many passes allow the grouser bars to compact more than what would happen in only a single pass. Multiple angles also help. Another trick on something like a pond dam is to compact cross wise to the dam direction. By climbing over the top of the dam if the front and rear idlers are off the ground you can up to double the pressure on the grouser portion that is touching in the middle. Small dam doable, huge dam get the proper equipment. It is a work around, not the general correct way to do something.

As far as patching a hole in a dam, this is the way I would approach it. It may or may not be the correct way. Water is going to try and follow the path left where the old part of the dam follows the new dirt. So try to make that transition as long as possible. One way would be to use a back hoe and trench lengthwise the dam on both sides of the break. This lets your dam repair take on a "Tee" formation instead of just plugging the original break. Also take this "tee" down below the grade of the original break. Make that water have to follow a longer path to get through to the other side, instead of just the distance of the width of the dam. Here is a good place where the front end tire of a tractor with a load of dirt in the loader bucked for weight can be used to compact this "Teed" portion of the dam repair. It goes without saying have the proper material to repair area. Clay is good but actually a mix of clay and topsoil, completely mixed, is better. Straight clay can crack with wetting and drying. Having a certain mix of topsoil helps out with this. According to our local NRCS guy most of our topsoils alone will seal adequately for a pond dam because our clay content is high enough to do so. But he also said to put the best clay material in the center portion of the dam and not rely on the lower content topsoil. Always put your best sealing material in the middle of the dam.

That is what little I think I know. Use it at your own risk. I'm not a contractor. I'm not a professional. I'm a flunky farmer with some construction equipment, but I have been running equipment for well over 40 years so I do have at least some practical experience.


John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
T
TDUBYA Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
Thanks Snrub. I appreciate the tips. I will definitely take those ideas into consideration when I get going on this thing. Luckily I think there's a decent topsoil and clay mixture in that area.

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
T
TDUBYA Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
Some more pics from a different view and I've got a question...

Snrub gave me some tips on how to compact the dam once plugged using a small TBFEL(thanks again Snrub.) Obviously to do that I'll have to widen the dam significantly to get it across.

In addition to widening I'd like to try to add about a foot of height, doing my best to blend or knit the top layers...good idea? or bad Idea?

Attached Images
IMG_2073.JPG IMG_2077.JPG
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
L
Offline
L
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
Based on what I see, would there be any objection to a concrete dam with a slot so you can put in lumber to raise and lower the level? Sort of like a sluice? You let the water run over the lumber, and for the most part you will never need worry about it washing out if built right.

As far as building it right, I am not your guy. Just a thought based on the larger water flow and small dam situation.

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
T
TDUBYA Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
No objections here. Thanks Liquidsquid. I like that idea as well. I'd like the idea to control the water depth. I had thought about a concrete spillway but hadn't thought about your suggestion, I'll have to look into that. I'm entertaining all ideas here...

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
T
TDUBYA Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
We had a pretty good downpour last night in about a 8 hour period. I'm not sure of amount, but I do know we had some significant flooding in our area. I had some pretty large/heavy rocks that got pushed up to 20-30ft down the stream bed to give an idea of the force this stream is capable of. Anybody got any ideas or guidance to offer on how to create a dam scenario that can handle these types of heavy rain events? I've researched ways to disperse some of the force of the water before it enters the area I'm attempting to turn into a pond and will incorporate anything I can to do so, but I'm curious as to how to let water out fast enough, before I dam it up. I'll try to post some pics tomorrow if it'll help.

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
How about something simple like 10"-12" tree trunks pressed deeply, side by side into the creek bottom channel? Rock and clay packed in on the front side to seal it.



Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
One way would be to install a large culvert for the water to flow through. Have a thick steel cap ready made so when construction is done just place the cap over the inlet end.

Could do the same thing with a pipe and valve, but large valves could be cost prohibitive and overkill for what you need to do.

You could even have a welder weld a nipple in place and a smaller valve so if you want to drain the pond some day. But valves tend to quit working after a few years, especially if not used. One reason I personally do not like valves in the bottom of a dam unless a person has a specific use for them and uses them somewhat regularly. Otherwise they are likely not going to work when you need them anyway.


John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
T
TDUBYA Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
Rainman: Thanks for the reply...that might be doable, and I may even have some logs soon. I had some ideas about using lumber in some way, but not tree trunks...I like it.

Snrub: Thanks for replying again. I had been trying to think of some way of incorporating a large culvert pipe, but had not thought about the welding cap/nipple/valve part...good idea. I agree with you on the drawback of the valves. If you were going to do something like that would you encapsulate it in concrete to secure it for post-construction from a blowout given its such a relatively small area?

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
T
TDUBYA Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
A before/after comparison.

Attached Images
IMG_2081.JPG IMG_2145.JPG
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
That stream looks large enough to support a 50 acre lake. You need some sort of flow through or flow-over arrangement. Large tree trunks keyed and embedded in the sides and packed with clay would work well. I think you could use 15 to 18 inch logs if someone can get them into place.

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
I was thinking the same thing. That looks like with the terrain there is going to be a LOT of flow through. In our area, if it drains over a certain size watershed, we need Corps of Engineer approval before damming up such a stream.

That is going to take a significant structure to stand up to a heavy rain event. Concrete overflow area so it will not erode of adequate size to handle any rain event and surrounding higher dam high enough so it is never breached and all the water is forced to flow over the concrete. That is the way I would approach it. Otherwise it takes a lot of freeboard on the dam to temporarily hold the water till it has time to meter out the overflow pipe (like a watershed containment structure). That takes a significant dam to withstand the temporary pressure during high water events.

No expert here. Just the way I see it.

Last edited by snrub; 02/05/16 07:39 AM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
TDUBYA, after thinking about it, the situation in your pictures does not look that different than the small seasonal stream running through our pasture. My wife wanted to dam that up till I explained to her that the cost of the overflow structure alone would likely exceed our net worth and that the cost to permit after consulting the Corps of Engineers and getting EPA approval (so they don't come back later and say we destroyed something important to them) was much more than I wanted to tackle.

What we did instead is a made a nice watershed pond with the back of the dam following the creek. It looks like you have plenty of options other than that creek to make a nice pond adjacent to it rather than trying to dam it up. You would get away from all the problems of trash fish entering via the stream and by limiting the watershed not have near the engineering challenges with so much water flow.

But it is your project. That is just the way I would look at it if it were my property.


John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
One other possible option. Does the stream run all year?

If it does, this might be an option. Simply dump a number of loads of large rip-rap ahead of the existing dam to back up a pool behind it.

When I was a kid, a bunch of us did this in Cow Creek (much larger than the stream you have). Below this overflow county bridge the water did not get deep enough to maintain fishing. There were lots of rocks in the creek. So by hand my brothers and a bunch of neighbor kids picked up and dug rocks from the bottom of the creek and surrounding area and created a "dam" a ways below this overflow type concrete bridge. We were able to back up enough water to pool below the bridge that it could be fished. We never tried to dam up all the water, just to back the flow up enough to create a deeper pool.

If your water flows year round, you could possible just pile lots of rip-rap, letting the natural process of clogging up, and let the water flow through the "dam" but in the process backing water up several feed deep. If this is done, you need big enough rocks so the water can't move them downstream. We are talking minimum foot in diameter and 18' better. Make sure water runs over the rocks and not around, or you just create a new creek channel to one side.

I don't expect you to adopt this method. Just giving you some ideas for your thought process.


John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
T
TDUBYA Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
John F: Thanks for replying. I would love to have an accurate idea of the volume of water that flows thru my little ravine here. It's like a miniature Colorado River when we get a heavy or consistent downpour. I agree, a typical approach is not going to work here. I like your idea as well.

Snrub: Thanks to you also. Not that it would stand up in court but, if I were unfortunate enough to be tangled up with some agencies, I would claim that I'm renovating an old man-made farm pond that is less than an acre (I've been told no permit needed if less than 1 acre) and it is not a blue line stream, nor is the larger portion on past me. All true but may not matter. I hope I don't find out. You hit on what was going to be one of my next questions about the backside of the dam/spillway. I had done what you mentioned on a smaller scale with the rock flow thru dam earlier after I took out the barrels. And as you mentioned the flow eventually cut a new path around the rock pile so I moved them to try to prevent more erosion of the sides until I sort this all out.

Here's a question for y'all and anyone else who would like to chime in...
What kind of effects would widening and deepening the area have? My infantile understanding of hydrology envisions toilet bowl action...LOL

Last edited by TDUBYA; 02/05/16 09:59 PM.
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
If it's like the dotted blue line (intermittent) stream that runs through my place, you would need a concrete spillway probably 80 feet wide with a four foot deep slot just to handle the probable 5 to 10 year floods.

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
Unless trying to back up a LOT of water, I see no reason here for any concrete. Essentially, what has been described as being wanted, is a Weir Pond, which is just a small dam in flowing stream bed that water constantly flows through, over and around.

The stream does not look to be down to bedrock, so driving 6-10" logs, side by side about 6-7 feet deep, and adding some rock in front to build a "ramp" for water to flow over will last through about any flow that wouldn't change the natural drainage course of the stream bed. If there is bedrock, some concrete/mortar using natural stone to build a 3-6 foot wide bridge/wall will be plenty also.

Bob did an article on Weir ponds...I'm not sure what issue, but here is a link to some of it. I had the pleasure of visiting this amazing place with Bob a couple years ago...

http://www.bobluskoutdoors.com/news-updates/building-a-pond-ron-morgans-system-2016-01-2490

Last edited by Rainman; 02/06/16 07:23 PM.


Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
I was thinking hire a few beavers. They build flow thru dams and make repairs for free! smile

Joking about the beavers but I like Rainman's idea best so far and it is kind of how beavers build dams.

Last edited by Bill D.; 02/06/16 07:10 PM.

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
Originally Posted By: TDUBYA
John F: Thanks for replying. I would love to have an accurate idea of the volume of water that flows thru my little ravine here. It's like a miniature Colorado River when we get a heavy or consistent downpour. I agree, a typical approach is not going to work here. I like your idea as well.

Snrub: Thanks to you also. Not that it would stand up in court but, if I were unfortunate enough to be tangled up with some agencies, I would claim that I'm renovating an old man-made farm pond that is less than an acre (I've been told no permit needed if less than 1 acre) and it is not a blue line stream, nor is the larger portion on past me. All true but may not matter. I hope I don't find out. You hit on what was going to be one of my next questions about the backside of the dam/spillway. I had done what you mentioned on a smaller scale with the rock flow thru dam earlier after I took out the barrels. And as you mentioned the flow eventually cut a new path around the rock pile so I moved them to try to prevent more erosion of the sides until I sort this all out.

Here's a question for y'all and anyone else who would like to chime in...
What kind of effects would widening and deepening the area have? My infantile understanding of hydrology envisions toilet bowl action...LOL


Widening and deepening would last till the first heavy flow refills everything you'd removed. I used to have to scoop out gravel after every heavier rain to reopen our "swimming hole"..



Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
T
TDUBYA Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 31
Thanks guys, wow that is a beautiful property in the link. Yes I'm going to try to back up or at least slow down between an eighth to a sixth of an acre and have a few Panfish. Yes I've noticed the last 2 big rains washed in tons(literally) of gravel into the area I had dug out by shovel. Any advice on how to combat that upstream? A weir pond may be the way to go after all. I appreciate the ideas and feel free to keep them coming.

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
L
Offline
L
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
The gravel wash-in will likely be the biggest problem for you. I live near Ithaca, NY which has a lot of parks with dammed creeks for swimming holes. Beautiful places! Each spring they have to re-excavate out the holes for swimming, removing a LOT of material. Some years the parks remain closed as the swim holes will be overflowing with gravel and completely plugged.

Two of the better-known parks there:
http://parks.ny.gov/parks/151/details.aspx
http://parks.ny.gov/parks/135/details.aspx

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 97
Likes: 1
D
Offline
D
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 97
Likes: 1
TDUBYA,
I have been following your thread with interest. I have a similar creek on my Texas property. Mine has a bedrock base with sand and gravel continually washing down with each heavy rain/flood event. I have considered building a temporary weir of sand bags across a narrow section to create a small pond and see if it's really what I want and to better understand the issues of silt/gravel buildup before investing in a more permanent effort. I figure if sand bags can hold back the Mississippi river they ought to work in my project. Your thoughts?

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
cro, HC1968
Recent Posts
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by Boondoggle - 03/29/24 07:18 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by RogersTailgate - 03/29/24 05:45 AM
pond experience needed
by esshup - 03/29/24 12:45 AM
New pond middle TN: establishing food chain?
by Bill Cody - 03/28/24 07:57 PM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by FireIsHot - 03/28/24 07:33 PM
Working on a .5acre disaster, I mean pond.
by PRCS - 03/28/24 06:39 PM
Fungus infection on fish
by nvcdl - 03/28/24 06:07 PM
Can anyone ID these minnows?
by Dylanfrely - 03/28/24 05:43 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/28/24 04:48 PM
Yellow Perch Spawn 2024
by H20fwler - 03/28/24 04:29 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by LANGSTER - 03/28/24 03:49 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5