Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Spotfin Shiners - Habitat, Cover and Structure

Guys,

I've found a source for Spotfin Shiners (SFS) but they are not cheap so I want to maximize my chance of success. The plan would be to try stocking some early spring in line with the plan to improve the forage base in my pond. Does anybody have any experience they can share? Specifically, spawning habitat, preferred cover and pond bottom structure were my first thoughts but all inputs are appreciated..

Thanks!

Bill D.

Believe it or not this a subject that I can semi-intelligently comment on. Problem is I can't post pics here. Pm on the way later today.

Thanks Bob. Looking forward to the PM.

I found this in an old thread that others may be interested in....

Here are a few pics of Bob O's FHM and SFS spawning habitat. I will leave it to him to explain construction, placement, etc.

The first pic is a two story, more spawning compartments.

The second is an average pallet that is divided into 56 compartments that had been it the water for one yr. I did this after reading about Lusk finding an old fashioned wood pop case floating in a lake. He said he found FHM eggs in each compartment. I also read that the FHM will defend the spawning area for about 18"s in each direction if they SEE a potential intruder. Evidently in the pop case they couldn't see each other thus no confrontation. This type of spawning area is used by both FHM and BNM. I tied a x-mass tree under some for a hiding area for the new hatchlings.

The third pic is of SFS spawning structure. The material used is the same as the dividers in the pallets. It's that plastic that looks like cardboard. It is used to make signs for elections and to mark what type of seed was used in corn fields. I went to a grain elevator and asked for outdated signs. Also went around the day after voting ended. The spacing between layers ranges from 1/8" to 1/4". I hang these off my pier ranging in depth from 6"s down to 24"s. The closer to the surface get eggs sooner cause the water warms up quicker but all will have eggs eventually.

I swish these up and down about every other day cause my pond has lots of suspended clay and lots of dust from the Co Rd just to the west of my pond. The eggs need water flow to develop correctly.

Great info Bob-O. Thanks!!

I picked up some of that corrugated plastic from Home Depot. It was pretty cheap.

Pretty neat Bob. I had missed that one.

Bob,

Sounds like you've succeeded in establishing sustaining populations of both SFS and BNM. A couple of things I've picked up from you so far is the SFS are crevice spawners and the BNM spawn like FHM. What kind of vegetation do you have and any other cover? What are the other fish in the pond? Any other advice?

Bill, I do have a very good forage population. I still go get some fresh SPS and BNM every other yr. Don't think it's necessary but it's always a good time.

The first yr I planted little clumps of Eel grass about 4' apart only along one shore. It doesn't spread real fast and took about 4-5 summers to fill that whole shore(100') to about 8' out. Did'nt want it but have Curly leaf pond weed and Chara but keep it pretty well in check. I have several X-mass trees sunk and marked. One is directly under my pier for the sake of newly hatched SFS. That ended up being a good surprise, because the larger predators started hanging around it and makes good fishin for the kids. I also planted about 6 hybrid Lily plants but they're mostly for looks. Also have a reef made of tires that is about 7' long and 5' tall in 10' of water.

My pond is only 1/4 acre so my predators are limited in #s. I have WE, YP, SMB, HSB, 3 RE, unwelcome hitchhiked in CC and put in some Tilapia each June.

"Any other advice"? OMG when I read that I had ta LOL. Of course I have tons of other advice but I'll be nice and limit it.
1 DON'T ASK ME FOR ADVICE!! If it weren't for this site and especially Cody and Cecil I'd have a hole full of water with many stunted unwanted fish and weeds. Yes, even the weeds would probably be stunted.
2 For all newbies and folks planning a pond these are some of the things I wish I had done.
A I should have had a written contract specifying exactly what I wanted. One of those things would have been a guarantee against leaks.
B Should have hand sorted every fish and plant that went in, no unwanted CC.
C Check in here and ask about anything you're planning to do. I put in 6 Koi without checkin and took 5 yrs ta get rid of.
3 Be patient, good things take time to develop. Besides the days, months and yrs slide by pretty darned fast. Tomorrow will be the tenth anniversary of my first post here. Probably should apologize to all who have had to withstand that but won't.
4 No matter what your goals and dreams are going in, don't lose any sleep over set backs and mistakes. One day I was watchin the grandkids playin along shore(of course not on the beach) and it dawned on me that they wouldn't care if the pond was only three ft deep and only housed turtles, snakes, tadpoles and crawdads. Make it FUN!!
5 Three 1/3 acre ponds are way better than a 1 acre pond.
6 Aerate

Ta quote Forrest, "And that's all I have ta say about that"

I think I hear a good story coming...

Bob-O, can you provide a link to your saga with getting the KOI out if you wrote it up in a past post?

Or is short, why did it take 5 years, and how did you eventually succeed in the end?

Double C, I did not document all the frustration my own ignorance caused. It took sooo long cause I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer. I shot one with a rifle, one with a shotgun, a friend caught one on pellets, speared one and can't remember one of em. The occasional GBH speared a 16" SMB but do ya think it would kill a lowly carp?

Thanks for the info Bob!

Someone is a good shot who got it with a rifle

Thanks!

I have a 3x9 scope that I can count squirrel whiskers with. Shot it in the mouth while it was suckin pellets.

This may be a stupid question...is there a benefit to spotfin shiners vs golden shiners?

As usual, I'm sure the answer is "It Depends." I am not a pro but for my pond, IMO, SFS and BNM are better suited to my predator base than GSH. SFS and BNM both stay smaller and should remain within the mouthgap of my primary predators, SMB, YP and WE.

GSH can get 10 inches or bigger which would make them just extra biomass for me when they reach that size. My thought is, once GSH out grow my predator's mouthgap, they will just reduce the carrying capacity and available small forage of my pond for my preferred species. As more GSH recruits make it to larger sizes each year, they could end up being a real problem.

If I was going to have a LMB pond, I would stock the GSH.

Again, I'm not a pro...Just my 1 cent

I see. I tried looking them up but didn't get to much information. Also I'm at work so my ability to search things is limited ha!

Thanks Bill, that is what I was thinking but wasn't sure. I agree that if it can't be eatin it will probably be doin too much eatin.

Good info. above on habitat Bob. Thanks for sharing! I chose to stock the GSH because they do get the larger size... To me its an advantage over the other shiners as they'll have a better chance of long term survival and will continue to reproduce and feed the predators in the pond. I think as the SMB get to the larger size that they should be able to handle some of the larger sized GSH. Any one have a definite answer on that? Can a 3-4 pound SMB eat a 10" GSH? Im guess they could without a problem...

I use 6-8" nose hooked GSH livelining for HSB and SMB with success - they find them hard to resist struggling on the surface. I haven't tried GSH up to 10", but the 6-8" they have no problems with. HSB up to 28" and SMB up to 18" so far.

Good info TJ, thanks.

Good info! I'm glad to hear my SMB can handle GSH. I found 3 GSH hitchhiking in some FHM in the fall of 2014 and went ahead and stocked them. Fall 2015 I had a small school of 100 or so GSH cruising around. What are the odds? No way that would have happened if I tried to get a population going with only stocking 3 fish!

I just read in another current thread that a BOW needs a minimum percentage of minimum size LMB to control Gizzard Shad (GSD) as they can reach lengths of 12 inches+ and take over a BOW without sufficient predation. Anybody know if there is a similar rule of thumb for GSH?

I really couldn't find much either when I searched. Lots of posts with folks recommending them but not really much info beyond that. I think that may be because there hard to come by in stocking quantities at a reasonable price unless you have a place you can catch your own. That's one of the reasons why I started this thread. Maybe somebody can learn from my mistakes!

Bill, I think you are correct about not being able to buy in any quantity. I had some good dumb luck last summer raising some in a rain barrel. I think this yr I will transform my live well cage into a SFS nursery and hope for the best. Maybe try ta swap them to other pondmiesters for something. You know, maybe squatting in their lawns(no BIG campfires) and fishin their ponds. Maybe if I'm real lucky havin their wives cook up some of the catch. Hint, hint.

Works for me but I may just join ya by the campfire! Great way to spend a nice summer evening.

Get a couple of those E Texas boys up here and I'll drag Cecil along. That is if he don't get us lost.

Update...I stocked 100 SFS last week when the shoreline was full of other small fish to distract the predators. I'm thinking the pond's rip rap and broken concrete will provide the habitat these crevice spawners like and maybe they will thrive. Also stocked 100 BNM with the hope the concrete will be to their liking. Odds are against me with such a small number of stockers but, I guess, time will tell....

Bill,
Any success with your SFS surviving? Did you make artificial spawning structure? I'm planning a small stocking myself and wonder your success.

I saw many last fall swimming in a school with GSH. The SFS I stocked have a "tan" colored back so easy to spot them in a group of "gray" colored backed GSH. I've seen a few this year but they are hard to spot with so much slender pond weed this year. My pond has lots of rip rap so there was no need to add artificial spawn structure. I figure there are millions of suitable crevices in the rip rap.

My recommendation is, if you have predators in the pond already, stock them with a bunch of FHM. The slow moving FHM are a nice distraction and will improve the chances of your SFS surviving long enough to become acclimated to their new home.

Good Luck!

Bill D.

Thanks for the good advice. I might need to source some rip rap too now! I have no predators, except for a dozen or so of my largest jumbo perch pushing 11-12". Depending on how big my stockers are I'm hoping the big perch won't eat them.

I'll be hoping I see some tan schools of SFS later this year!

I have introduced large numbers of spotfins to a pond with a heavy smallmouth population; they seem to be doing great and are clearly recruiting. I wouldn't worry about the perch being able to put a dent in their population--they are extremely quick and active, and only when they are first placed in the pond do they seem to be especially vulnerable to predators.

I have found that putting them in the pond right at dark, and stocking from a black bucket, can really reduce losses. If you keep them in a white bucket, they are quite light colored when they go in the pond, and really stand out. Coming out of a black bucket, they're very dark and blend in immediately.

This is great direction!

Did you create specific spawning structure for your SFS? I want to start them in a forage pond recently constructed but need to understand if the dowel/cd structures ala Cody are necessary to ensure reproduction/recruitment. Let me know when time allows, thanks to you guys for the important science on SFS!! Huge benefit to our community.

TJ-Nothing special, just some rock riprap along one side of the pond. They seem to orient to logs, too....great structure for them is several small logs [I use willow trunks, 3-6" diameter] wired or chained together in a bundle, then sunk in 2-3 feet of water parallel to the shore. [ I think any wood would work, I just have a surplus of willow to work with.]
I have them in with blunt nose minnows and PK shrimp. They seem to get along pretty well, there are millions of the minnows, but still plenty of shrimp. I wondered if the minnows would eradicate the shrimp, but they haven't yet.

Spotfins hang around the woody branches/logs looking for crevices of the bark that is peeling away from the trunk. Instinct behavior.

OK thanks guys, this is good information for me as I'll be hopefully raising SFS, BNM and shrimp in one cell like Dave and still unsure on what species I'll dedicate the other cell towards....might feed train and select promising female YP, might grow out and select the best male BG, or maybe mix them together.

Now I need to find a source for BNM and SFS and, believe it or not, my once flourishing shrimp population has literally disappeared. Been trying to collect shrimp for the last 3 months and nothing. I can't imagine what would have impacted the population, but I am seeing major vegetation disruption due to either grass carp and/or crayfish....one working theory is they are targeting shrimp and ripping up/clipping vegetation in the process. I have vegetation floating all over my pond surface, it's an entirely new development after 9 years of management. I'm stumped, but the resulting turbidity and detritus has impacted my clarity in a major way.

TJ, bad news about your pond! I was hoping you and others could keep a good population of grass shrimp going.

I know mine are gone as well and I just blame the lack of any vegetation. I know I can blame crayfish but I can't catch any in traps so I doubt I have very many crayfish. My gold fish took the blame but I have reduced numbers from 500+ to about 50 or less and still no vegetation.

I think my soilfloc applications play a role now as the bottom is like concrete and I don't know how easily plants and seeds can establish.

I'm sure a bare bones bottom to the pond gives no hiding places for the shrimp. I'm trying to keep some FA in the shallows for them to have a place to hide.

I'm starting the SFS journey too and will be putting some artificial structure in (I made 4 structures, 2 with stacks of CDs and 2 with stacks of plastic cardboard) I'm going to try to add some logs and maybe some riprap as well.

I wonder if I drilled some depressions (on an angle and straight in the pipe without going all the way through, even some longer slots in the plastic?) the side wall of a plastic PVC pipe if the SFS would use them.

keep us posted if you find the reason for the floating vegetation.

When one sees lots of pieces of floating vegetation it is usually a sign of the efforts of grass carp or muskrats.

I found a great article about the best cover, the best crevice size, the best color, the best temperature and other interesting findings:

==================================================

Selection of Artificial Spawning Sites by the Spotfin Shiner (Notropis spilopterus)

William F. Gale and , Cynthia A. Gale

Published on the web 14 April 2011.

Journal of the Fisheries Research Board of Canada, 1976, 33(9): 1906-1913, https://doi.org/10.1139/f76-243
Abstract

In 1975 experiments were conducted in the Susquehanna River, near Berwick, Pennsylvania, to investigate spawning-site selection of the spotfin shiner (Notropis spilopterus), a crevice spawner. Results of experiment A revealed that visual cues and water currents were important in spawning-site selection. Spotfins deposited 43.638 eggs on black discs and only 2 eggs on clear discs; 87% of the eggs were in horizontal crevices and the remainder in vertical crevices paralleling (7%) and perpendicular (6%) to the current. Fish spawned over the entire disc in slow currents but avoided strong currents (0.57m/s) by spawning on the downstream side of the discs. Nearly 90% of the eggs were deposited in crevices 1.5 and 3.0mm wide, the two smallest sizes. In angular crevices 15–90° from horizontal, fish deposited 74% of 8,358 eggs in the 15° crevice and 24% in the 30° crevice.

In experiment B, a stack of black acrylic plates was placed near the river surface, at midwater, and near the bottom; in July fish deposited 91% of 13,088 eggs in the bottom stack. By mid-August stack usage had changed and 80% of 11,456 eggs were in the surface stack; the others were in the midwater stack. Rate of egg deposition on acrylic plates between July 10 and August 20 peaked in early August.

In experiment C, 95% of 46,328 eggs were placed in crevices between blue (55%) and black (40%) plates; other colors were green (4%), red (1%), and white, yellow, and orange (<1%). Fish usually spawned on the plates between 0600 and 1000; spawning did not occur at night. The spotfin has potential as a bioassay organism because of its wide distribution, the ease with which large numbers of its eggs can be collected, its extended breeding season, and the simplicity of rearing the young.

Good stuff Jeff, thank you. I can't imagine my shrimp population is entirely decimated, but I simply cannot find them, which is very troubling as I've never had issues before over 7 seasons...