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BMAA, a neurotoxin associated with blue-green algae, has been linked with dementia in mammals. How much danger this poses to humans is not yet known, but the evidence is pretty damning. You can read the complete article at the link given below. If you've been exposed to much blue-green algae, you might wish to consider L-serine supplements. If your pond develops BGA, take quick measures and don't eat any of the fish until things get better. No swimming or wading, either. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/soc...a902_story.html
Last edited by anthropic; 01/21/16 08:37 PM.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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Be leery of believing fully everything in a newspaper article. Often the author does not completely understand the topic and will present a more newsworthy slant to the article. I've been interviewed several times and when I read the final article, I'm saying that is not what I said or some qualified comment was reported out of context.
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Be leery of believing fully everything in a newspaper article. Often the author does not completely understand the topic and will present a more newsworthy slant to the article. I've been interviewed several times and when I read the final article, I'm saying that is not what I said or some qualified comment was reported out of context. You're right, Bill, about the media. I've had the same thing done to me or others I know, in some cases completely changing the comment. Still, in this case the evidence seems compelling: BMAA from blue green algae causes brain plaques & other issues even in fairly low doses. There is evidence for this from both animal and human studies. Given that reality, I think Pond Boss has a responsibility to warn pond owners. Don't swim in a BGA pond. Don't eat the fish. Don't allow your dog to drink from it. And if you or someone has been exposed, L-serine is a good idea. Perhaps this is overkill, perhaps not. We already knew BGA was toxic to the fish, so it shouldn't be surprising it's bad for us, too. A few common sense steps won't hurt, and may help.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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A lot is still to be learned about bluegreen algae (Cyanobacteria) especially those considered toxic. Even the species recognized to produce toxins do not always produce toxins and it is not fully known why - yet. Also, there are many more species of bluegreen algae that do not produce toxins than those that are capable of producing toxins. Thus not all bluegreens are toxic to fish and those few that are known to be harmful to fish are not always producing toxins thus they often have little affect on fish. The bluegreen toxin producing species do not produce toxins as reliably as some non-bluegreen algae such as red tide algae or golden algae (Prymnesium parvum). Again, the media has IMO sensationalized this topic.
That author of the Washington post article IMO does a disservice to the public. 1. She does not identify any specie of bluegreen algae (Cyanobacteria) and lumps all bluegreen algae as toxic.
This is basically the same as saying a person was bit by a snake and he died of snake venom. So all snakes are poisonous. Or - a pit bull dog bit and killed a child, so all dogs are dangerous killers.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/22/16 09:42 PM.
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Excellent points, Bill. Given the newspaper article, I'd thought that basically most blue-green algae created the BMAA neurotoxin. Good to know that isn't always true!
But the fact that we do not know if we have the toxic or non-toxic kind would seem to warrant a cautious approach. If I know that some snakes in my area are deadly and some are not, but cannot differentiate between them, it would be wise not to pick one up on the assumption it is harmless.
Perhaps I am sensitive to this issue because my mother in law died of Alzheimer's. Anything that may involve risk of dementia gets my attention, especially at my age.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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Maybe they have another agenda; to scare us into draining and filling in our ponds? Liability issues if someone wades or his dog drinks? I'm scared, mine will be filled asap. oh oh!
If there was significant danger, the EPA would not allow us to have ponds.
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Well, John, BMAA has been suspected of causing brain issues for a long time. One tribe in Guam had very high rates of dementia from eating a particular plant which contained high levels of BMAA. They also ate animals which fed on this plant (cycad, I think), which concentrated the effects. However, up until now the assumption has been that it takes a lot of BMAA to cause significant issues. Now we know that's not so. Also, it appears that chronic exposure, even at low levels, is more dangerous than a one time high level exposure. Bill is rightly skeptical of newspaper articles, so I dug up the original research here: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/283/1823/20152397BMAA can be found in shellfish, bottom dwelling fish, dust, animals that consume plants with BMAA, etc. And blue-green algae. If we are responsible pondmeisters, seems to me we'd want to keep folks from swimming in blue green algae infested waters. Don't let them eat fish from these waters, too. Or maybe we need a way to test algae so we'll know if BMAA is a hazard. Bill said that not all blue-green algae is the same, so perhaps some is harmless. Worth looking in to, I think. And don't forget L-serine as a possible help, whether you own a pond or not.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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I'll keep swimming in my pond and eating the fish. I can find just as much information I'm skeptical of that says I will get cancer if I keep swimming in my chlorine treated pool.
I guess it comes down to what you want to believe.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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I'll keep swimming in my pond and eating the fish. I can find just as much information I'm skeptical of that says I will get cancer if I keep swimming in my chlorine treated pool.
I guess it comes down to what you want to believe. CB, I know where you're coming from. Hopefully we'll find that, upon further investigation, the dangers for pondowners are minimal. Certainly you should enjoy your water as you see fit!
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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Without a microscope, or electron microscope, how can you tell if you have blue-green algae? I think I'll keep swimming in my pond. Im hoping the exercise Is worth the risk.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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Like I said, if it is really that bad, the EPA will have all ponds and small non coe lakes filled in.
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More knowledge about bluegreen algae (Cyanobacteria) and health risks is definitely needed. Good researchers are actively working on this topic. As a pond owner you do have a responsibility to yourself and family to not 'blindly' go around picking up and handling all snakes if you can't recognize poisonous snakes or vicious animals. One should learn the basic features of harmful algae that can grow in ponds so you can use knowledge based caution.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/23/16 10:02 AM.
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Like I said, if it is really that bad, the EPA will have all ponds and small non coe lakes filled in. John, the authorities shut down public waters when significant levels of blue-green algae are detected. This happens fairly often during the summer in the Midwest. They haven't focused on private water, true. But if there is a significant risk and pond owners do nothing, that will change.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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Are these new findings that will lead to regulations requiring draining and filling or expensive fencing to keep people, pets, and wildlife out?
Or, is this a rehash of old news that has been happening for many years?
Is this leading to more regulations? Have any been imposed anywhere? I know of some swimming beach closures a couple of summers ago, but that was e coli bacteria related.
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Sooo your saying my Talapia are going to be senile.......j/k 
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I'll keep swimming in my pond and eating the fish. I can find just as much information I'm skeptical of that says I will get cancer if I keep swimming in my chlorine treated pool.
I guess it comes down to what you want to believe. CB, I know where you're coming from. Hopefully we'll find that, upon further investigation, the dangers for pondowners are minimal. Certainly you should enjoy your water as you see fit! My apologies anthropic if I came off rather terse. It's just that having some journalism experience I can back up what Cody says about journalists sensationalizing something to a make a story. And as you may have noticed, if you are well versed in a subject more often then not the journalists screw up the facts. There are a lot of people out there writing to just be writing (especially Internet blogs) that don't' even have the remotest of qualifications to be writing about their subject matter. They do some digging on the Internet, interview a few people, and then put their slant on the subject. Some are downright dishonest. Many are so ignorant of science they wouldn't know the difference between a periodic table and cook book. Additionally with newspapers going out of business, many of these people aren't even good journalists, as they don't attract the best candidates due to lousy compensation. Right now I could write on any subject matter for the Internet and not have to have a clue to what I'm writing about and get paid for it. I just have to do some cursory research and whip together a short article. The pay is a joke but people do it as they can whip together a dozen articles or more a day on their home computer.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 01/23/16 10:53 AM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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I'll keep swimming in my pond and eating the fish. I can find just as much information I'm skeptical of that says I will get cancer if I keep swimming in my chlorine treated pool.
I guess it comes down to what you want to believe. CB, I know where you're coming from. Hopefully we'll find that, upon further investigation, the dangers for pondowners are minimal. Certainly you should enjoy your water as you see fit! My apologies anthropic if I came off rather terse. It's just that having some journalism experience I can back up what Cody says about journalists sensationalizing something to a make a story. And as you may have noticed, if you are well versed in a subject more often then not the journalists screw up the facts. There are a lot of people out there writing to just be writing (especially Internet blogs) and don't' even have the remotest of qualifications to be writing about their subject matter. They do some digging on the Internet, interview a few people, and then put their slant on the subject. Some are downright dishonest. Many are so ignorant of science they wouldn't know the difference between a periodic table and cook book. Additionally with newspapers going out of business, many of these people aren't even good journalists, as they don't attract the best candidates due to lousy compensation. Right now I could write on any subject matter for the Internet and not have to have a clue to what I'm writing about and get paid for it. I just have to do some cursory research and whip together a short article. The pay is a joke but people do it as they can whip together a dozen articles or more a day on their home computer. You are so right about the modern "press". I retired from an electric utility. When we had a press release, unless our spokesperson went directly on the news, the press invariably got the facts twisted and garbled, because their writer never bothered to educate themselves about the subject. Someone with no knowledge of the subject could write a blog today on the virtues of consuming blue green algae, and someone would believe and repeat it.
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FWIW I usually try to get info off either a government or university site. Not a perfect approach but I figure it improves the odds some of getting correct info. Even then, I've seen where biased "studies" were conducted to prove the researcher's opinion rather than an unbiased attempt to gather info.
![[Linked Image]](http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=11852&filename=I_subscribe_zps2qlyoyn2.gif) Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
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This discussion reminds me of a situation we run into farming sometimes. Afflatoxin in corn and/or vomitoxin in wheat. It is not a regular problem, but under certain environmental conditions the grain can be dangerous to both animals and humans.
Usually some extraordinary conditions bring the problem on. The toxins are there all the time, but only in certain conditions do they become a problem.
We lit a match to a bunch of wheat fields this year because the vomitoxin levels were too high. In drought years we have not harvested some corn fields because of aflatoxin. Either is seldom a problem, but when it is a problem it can be a big problem.
I had what I believe to be bluegreen algae in my pond this last summer. Smelled nasty. Don't know if it was the toxic kind or not. But as soon as we got some rains and flow through, the water appeared to be fine. I avoided getting in the water when it was bad and even tried to stay up wind as the smell was bad and I have heard that even breathing it can be harmful. Better safe than sorry.
John
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Sooo your saying my Talapia are going to be senile.......j/k Problem is, how could we tell? 
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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I'll keep swimming in my pond and eating the fish. I can find just as much information I'm skeptical of that says I will get cancer if I keep swimming in my chlorine treated pool.
I guess it comes down to what you want to believe. CB, I know where you're coming from. Hopefully we'll find that, upon further investigation, the dangers for pondowners are minimal. Certainly you should enjoy your water as you see fit! My apologies anthropic if I came off rather terse. It's just that having some journalism experience I can back up what Cody says about journalists sensationalizing something to a make a story. And as you may have noticed, if you are well versed in a subject more often then not the journalists screw up the facts. There are a lot of people out there writing to just be writing (especially Internet blogs) that don't' even have the remotest of qualifications to be writing about their subject matter. They do some digging on the Internet, interview a few people, and then put their slant on the subject. Some are downright dishonest. Many are so ignorant of science they wouldn't know the difference between a periodic table and cook book. Additionally with newspapers going out of business, many of these people aren't even good journalists, as they don't attract the best candidates due to lousy compensation. Right now I could write on any subject matter for the Internet and not have to have a clue to what I'm writing about and get paid for it. I just have to do some cursory research and whip together a short article. The pay is a joke but people do it as they can whip together a dozen articles or more a day on their home computer. No problem re terseness, CB, though it does you credit to mention it. There's been many a time I wish I'd been as polite as you were! I wholeheartedly agree that the press often muddles science, either due to ignorance, bias, or just a desire to sensationalize. That's why I linked to the original research, though in truth even peer reviewed scientific publications aren't totally trustworthy. Still, they are usually better than the media. My concern is that we don't even know if and how much this is a problem. Maybe it has nothing to do with ponds. Maybe (my bet) it is only an issue under certain unusual conditions. Since it is better to light a candle than curse the darkness, I've contacted a friend who runs a water sensor startup. Maybe their technology will be useful for us, or perhaps they can modify it. Their sensors are much faster, cheaper & more precise than previous tech, so I'm somewhat hopeful. Anyway, I'll get back to PB Forum when I hear from him. If someone else here knows more about the subject, I'd love to hear from them.
Last edited by anthropic; 01/23/16 01:05 PM.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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I wonder how many people will rush to drain or fill in their ponds due to this Washington Post article? I can see the panic and fear of liability in some easily influenced people. Maybe the WaPo is not widely read? I wonder what the liability really is if a stray pet dies after drinking out of a farm pond? Will this lead to strict fencing of ponds like swimming pools are fenced now?
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This discussion reminds me of a situation we run into farming sometimes. Afflatoxin in corn and/or vomitoxin in wheat. It is not a regular problem, but under certain environmental conditions the grain can be dangerous to both animals and humans.
Usually some extraordinary conditions bring the problem on. The toxins are there all the time, but only in certain conditions do they become a problem.
We lit a match to a bunch of wheat fields this year because the vomitoxin levels were too high. In drought years we have not harvested some corn fields because of aflatoxin. Either is seldom a problem, but when it is a problem it can be a big problem.
I had what I believe to be bluegreen algae in my pond this last summer. Smelled nasty. Don't know if it was the toxic kind or not. But as soon as we got some rains and flow through, the water appeared to be fine. I avoided getting in the water when it was bad and even tried to stay up wind as the smell was bad and I have heard that even breathing it can be harmful. Better safe than sorry. Excellent post. Probably every pond has some bluegreen algae, but normally the levels are so low it is not a problem.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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I wonder how many people will rush to drain or fill in their ponds due to this Washington Post article? I can see the panic and fear of liability in some easily influenced people. Maybe the WaPo is not widely read? I wonder what the liability really is if a stray pet dies after drinking out of a farm pond? Will this lead to strict fencing of ponds like swimming pools are fenced now? Good questions. The Washington Post is widely read, especially by the political elite in Washington. This is one of the reasons why I brought up the subject: The EPA is virtually certain to propose some kind of action, justified or not. I'm hoping that we can get out in front of the issue before they do.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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I wonder how many people will rush to drain or fill in their ponds due to this Washington Post article? I can see the panic and fear of liability in some easily influenced people. Maybe the WaPo is not widely read? I wonder what the liability really is if a stray pet dies after drinking out of a farm pond? Will this lead to strict fencing of ponds like swimming pools are fenced now? I'd be surprised if there was one pond. I'm guessing most, if not all, pond owners have a brain.
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I don't see this becoming a big deal at all. Mountains from molehills.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Well, I've mostly got brown algae. So, I'm not going to worry. With a small leak, I've got enough to worry about. My 90 yr old mother has Alzheimer's, it's not something I want.
She's still very happy and pleasant to be around, but does not remember from one moment to the next. My 89 yr old dad is a pretty fair caregiver. Chief cook and bottle washer.
Seriously, would blue green algae show up in a two yr old pond? How can you tell if you have it?
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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My concern is that we don't even know if and how much this is a problem. Maybe it has nothing to do with ponds. Maybe (my bet) it is only an issue under certain unusual conditions.
Since it is better to light a candle than curse the darkness, I've contacted a friend who runs a water sensor startup. Maybe their technology will be useful for us, or perhaps they can modify it. Their sensors are much faster, cheaper & more precise than previous tech, so I'm somewhat hopeful.
Anyway, I'll get back to PB Forum when I hear from him. If someone else here knows more about the subject, I'd love to hear from them. Well, I've heard back from my friend with the sensor startup. Good news! He was definitely interested in the problem and said that, if the hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell) is indicative of BMAA production, this would be in their wheelhouse. Even if not, he intends to talk with some of their researchers about detecting BMAA levels. PS Some people take freeze-dried blue green algae supplements for their health! Wonder what the story is there and how they avoid toxicity issues. Maybe it's not the same stuff we have in ponds and lakes.
Last edited by anthropic; 01/23/16 11:29 PM.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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Very interesting article. My mom passed from ALS just last year, and interesting that there is a high incidence in New England and we lived near Lake Ontario. Also growing up we went to the Thousand Islands on the St. Lawrence River a lot and swam quite a bit in a polluted bay... which likely had BGA more often than not.
Now when it comes to ponds, it may be best that if you swim in them, to not push the biomass too hard at the risk of a BGA bloom due to high nutrients.
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Very interesting article. My mom passed from ALS just last year, and interesting that there is a high incidence in New England and we lived near Lake Ontario. Also growing up we went to the Thousand Islands on the St. Lawrence River a lot and swam quite a bit in a polluted bay... which likely had BGA more often than not.
Now when it comes to ponds, it may be best that if you swim in them, to not push the biomass too hard at the risk of a BGA bloom due to high nutrients.
Interesting post, squid. Lake Ontario and the Thousand Islands are beautiful, but perhaps BMAA was or is a problem sometimes. I spent several happy years in Plattsburg, NY, on the shores of Lake Champlain. Champlain, though, is less fertile and probably less likely to suffer much blue-green algae. If blue-green algae turns out to be more dangerous to humans that we first thought, we'd be smart to track our pond's fertility more carefully. Perhaps put in a bit less fish food or fertilizer. It's tough because most of us want maximum biomass -- I sure do -- and fertilization/feeding is the number one route to that.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
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