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#434204 - 01/11/16 02:57 PM Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs?
RUMBLON Offline


Registered: 11/24/13
Posts: 85
Loc: IDAHO
I am trying to figure out how many discs to buy from these guys.

http://www.aerationstore.com/category/DD.html

I am going to match it either a GAST or THOMAS pump.

The website for the discs says check technical data page but there is none. So I called them and they emailed me a PDF file which I am going to attempt to post in this thread. I really dont understand the numbers or how they transition to the PUMP CFM?

Here are the numbers for the 9" and 12 " discs.
1


9" DISC
DESIGN FLOW
1.5-3.0 SCFM
2.5-5.0 SM(3)/hr

-------------------------

FLOW RANGE
0-7 SCFM
0-12 SM3/hr


-----------------



12" DISC
DESIGN FLOW
1.5-3.0 SCFM
4.2-8.3 SM(3)/hr

FLOW RANGE
0-7 SCFM
0-20 SM3/hr


---------------------------------------------------












Edited by RUMBLON (01/11/16 03:07 PM)

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#434205 - 01/11/16 03:02 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: RUMBLON]
RUMBLON Offline


Registered: 11/24/13
Posts: 85
Loc: IDAHO
DID A SCREEN SHOT ON EACH


Attachments
9 INCH.png (204 downloads)
12 INCH.png (121 downloads)


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#434206 - 01/11/16 03:25 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: RUMBLON]
RUMBLON Offline


Registered: 11/24/13
Posts: 85
Loc: IDAHO
Im looking at a couple of kits/ pumps on ebay.

says 4CFM.

one states this

This auction INCLUDES:

*115 Volt AC, "Continuous Duty Rated Rebuilt Thomas Industries Pump: 400 Watt, 1/3hp with approx. 4cfm output. Draws just 3.5 - 4 amps (depending on exact depth of your pond). Rebuilt Thomas pumps do vary slightly in style, condition, appearance, etc. Output Specs will all be the same & They are all backed by a FULL 1 YEAR Warranty directly from us! We also service units we sell after the warranty period too, we can keep you up and running for many years at low cost!

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#434210 - 01/11/16 04:20 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: RUMBLON]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5261
Loc: SE Kansas
Too hard for me to read the small chart, but it looks like the 9" is designed to properly operate at anything between 1.5 and 3 cfm air flow. So all you have to do is match your pump output to your air flow.

Your pump is rated at 4 cfm but it does not say at what pressure. Lets say, just for example purposes, if the pump is 4cfm at 0 psi but at a 10' depth (5 psi back pressure) it is 3 cfm. Then at a ten ft depth you could use a single 9". Or if it is say 3.5 cfm for the pump output at the depth you want to run it, you could either use 2 - 9" diffusers or a single 12".

You just have to know what your pump output is at the depth it will be running (roughly .5 psi for every foot of water depth) and match the diffuser(s) to what air you have available. Another way if you have too much air would be to have a bleed off valve and waste some of the air but that is not preferred because you are just burning electricity to waste pumped air. I would rather run it through another or a bigger diffuser.

If your pond is circular and a single diffuser would work well, a single 12" might be fine. But if it is kidney shape or some other irregular shape with deep points at different places, the two 9" diffusers in separate places might give better water turn over.

Remember, the purpose of the air is not to aerate the water with the bubbles, although it will do a little of that. The purpose of the air is to create a water flow from the bottom up to bring bottom water to the top where the air-water interface is what is causing the water to take on more air. You are actually pumping water with the air and it is the water movement that you want.

If those charts that I can't read say it is alright for a certain air flow through the membrane at a certain depth, then go by what is on the chart. You need to know the depth you will be placing the diffuser, and how much cfm your pump puts out at that depth. Then match the diffuser sizing according to what cfm they require/handle at that depth.

If you put too much air (more than it is designed for) through a diffuser it likely will shorten its life by ballooning it up and stretching the membrane more than it is designed to be stretched.


Edited by snrub (01/11/16 04:29 PM)
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#434222 - 01/11/16 06:55 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: snrub]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24029
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Pretty much what snrub said. It looks like it takes 1.5 cfm to get the disc to start producing bubbles. So, if the pump produces 4.0 cfm, that would barely get you enough to run two diffusers. Like all things mechanical, pumps will wear over time and be less efficient, so I would feel better starting out with a pump that produces close to the maximum cfm of air that I will need at the psi where the diffusers will be placed.
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#434236 - 01/11/16 09:27 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: esshup]
JKB Offline
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Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 6692
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: esshup
Pretty much what snrub said. It looks like it takes 1.5 cfm to get the disc to start producing bubbles. So, if the pump produces 4.0 cfm, that would barely get you enough to run two diffusers. Like all things mechanical, pumps will wear over time and be less efficient, so I would feel better starting out with a pump that produces close to the maximum cfm of air that I will need at the psi where the diffusers will be placed.


May need to consider that these are waste water style diffusers designed for a much different purpose than what one might run in a pond rig.

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#434237 - 01/11/16 09:37 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: RUMBLON]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
I'm using a 1/3 hp rotary vane compressor that runs to two airlines and two membrane diffusers, which I'm pretty sure are 9 inch. (1/2 inch air line) Water depth of each diffuser is in 8 to 9 feet of water. Pond is .62 acres.

There seems to be pleny of air for each diffuser and i haven't changed the vanes for three years!
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#434238 - 01/11/16 09:38 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: JKB]
RUMBLON Offline


Registered: 11/24/13
Posts: 85
Loc: IDAHO
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: esshup
Pretty much what snrub said. It looks like it takes 1.5 cfm to get the disc to start producing bubbles. So, if the pump produces 4.0 cfm, that would barely get you enough to run two diffusers. Like all things mechanical, pumps will wear over time and be less efficient, so I would feel better starting out with a pump that produces close to the maximum cfm of air that I will need at the psi where the diffusers will be placed.


May need to consider that these are waste water style diffusers designed for a much different purpose than what one might run in a pond rig.


tHANKS, SO whats my option, Vertex difussers? they seem very
expensive.


Dave

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#434241 - 01/11/16 09:43 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: RUMBLON]
RUMBLON Offline


Registered: 11/24/13
Posts: 85
Loc: IDAHO
so if im correct, then this style starts producing at 0.5? Its a 9 inch!

Dave

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATLANTIC-DIFFUSERS-AB-70005-Diffuser-Fine-Bubble-Disc-9-In-Dia-/331348075502?hash=item4d25e263ee:g:GGcAAOSwK7FWhxTx

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#434244 - 01/11/16 10:09 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: RUMBLON]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5654
Loc: Boone County Illinois
FWIW in my newbie opinion, the one thing that is missing in this discussion is efficiency of the diffuser to convert air CFM to water flow. There are lots of diffusers out there and all convert air flow to water flow a little differently. I would remember what Snrub said, it's all about moving the water from the bottom to the top, not just compressor air flow and the capacity of the diffuser to take it.


Edited by Bill D. (01/11/16 10:11 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification
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#434246 - 01/11/16 10:45 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: Bill D.]
RUMBLON Offline


Registered: 11/24/13
Posts: 85
Loc: IDAHO
http://www.stillpondfarm.com/vertex-diffuser-disc

are these the best price on these?

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#434281 - 01/12/16 02:55 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: RUMBLON]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
You knows what's interesting? I purchased several 9 inch diffusers from Ebay, Amazon, and Vertex. Except for the color they are all identical including pore size. My guess is they are made by the same manufacturer.
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#434301 - 01/12/16 05:25 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
JKB Offline
Hall of Fame 2015
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Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 6692
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
You knows what's interesting? I purchased several 9 inch diffusers from Ebay, Amazon, and Vertex. Except for the color they are all identical including pore size. My guess is they are made by the same manufacturer.


Did you ever measure the pore sizes and count numbers?

I think that would be kinda tough on the fine bubble rigs, but you can measure them on the medium and coarse diffusers, at least the ones I have.

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#434302 - 01/12/16 05:47 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: JKB]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
You knows what's interesting? I purchased several 9 inch diffusers from Ebay, Amazon, and Vertex. Except for the color they are all identical including pore size. My guess is they are made by the same manufacturer.


Did you ever measure the pore sizes and count numbers?

I think that would be kinda tough on the fine bubble rigs, but you can measure them on the medium and coarse diffusers, at least the ones I have.


No. blush

But in the water the diiffuser boils looked very comparable. crazy
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If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#434303 - 01/12/16 05:50 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: RUMBLON]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: RUMBLON
http://www.stillpondfarm.com/vertex-diffuser-disc

are these the best price on these?


Better price here:

http://shop.hoosierpondpros.com/Vertex-9-Single-Air-Diffuser-VertexDiff9.htm


Pond Boss sponser too! grin
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If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#434304 - 01/12/16 06:10 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
JKB Offline
Hall of Fame 2015
Lunker

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 6692
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
You knows what's interesting? I purchased several 9 inch diffusers from Ebay, Amazon, and Vertex. Except for the color they are all identical including pore size. My guess is they are made by the same manufacturer.


Did you ever measure the pore sizes and count numbers?

I think that would be kinda tough on the fine bubble rigs, but you can measure them on the medium and coarse diffusers, at least the ones I have.


No. blush

But in the water the diiffuser boils looked very comparable. crazy



Lot's of tiny bubbles seem to look the same.

You know, if you stare at them long enough, it's kinda hypnotic laugh

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#434319 - 01/12/16 07:30 PM Re: Figuring flow rate between pump & diffuser discs? [Re: RUMBLON]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Love the sound of my swim spa!
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