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#433446 - 01/03/16 05:08 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Bill D.]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: Fish Food
......


You hit the key words. Its a balance between excellent growth and excess stored fat shortening the life of the fish.

Lets look at this in terms of goals.

Trophy Bluegill Pond
Here you need to limit excess energy (fat an starch) in your feed so they will have the best chance to grow to their maximum size.

Ideal Diet - 40% Protein 6% F 20% Starch

Trophy LMB Pond
In this case there is no need in limiting energy. Its simply more likely the bluegill will burn out faster. Excess fat leads to larger spawns also.

Ideal Diet - 40% Protein 6% F 35% Starch

Feed the Family Pond
The more energy the better!

Ideal Diet - 40% Protein 6% F 35% Starch

Do you like this approach better?




Interesting discussion. The example you provide is for BG in three different scenarios, correct? I find it interesting that your hypothetical diets hold lipids at 6%. I would expect to see maybe twice that.

On a different note, I have always wondered how manufactured food stacks up against natural forage. For example, we know LMB love to eat trout and grow exceptionally well on that diet. Obviously, pellets require less energy to catch. Have you run across any info in your studies that breaks down different natural forages into the categories of protein, fat and starch?


Its all about the energy source. Starch is cheaper than fat. However fat is much more palatable. Fat has roughly 2.25 times as much energy as starch.

The feed the family diet could be for various species.

I have done a little on bluegill and shad. I will see if I can find what little I have.
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#433447 - 01/03/16 05:24 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Bill Cody Offline
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Good discussion. Fish Food has a lot of good ideas to share. Thanks. I like the breakdown of optimum ingredients for the several pond fish categories of Big BG, Mainly LMBass, and Feed the Family/Community. Hybrid striped bass and yellow perch are sometimes thought to require slightly different ingredients for optimum growth AND longevity. I have been told that YP are best suited for a diet similar to salt water fish. Fish Food do you have any literature about this?


Longevity after fast growth to adulthood is a new concern for the sport fish pond enthusiasts. Do you know of any specific literature on this topic??


Edited by Bill Cody (01/03/16 05:28 PM)
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#433448 - 01/03/16 05:26 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
I came up with a feed for the Trophy Bluegill Pond.

Ingredients: Whole Fish Meal, Wheat Flour, Corn Bran and Lysine to complete the wheat's amino acid profile.

Protein 40% Fat 7% Starch 20% Fiber 16% Ash 7% and Moisture 10%

They would take well to this diet.

For fun I will work on a diet similar excluding fish meal.
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#433449 - 01/03/16 05:30 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Bill Cody Offline
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If you exclude fish meal can you substitute other forms of animal protein with supplemental vitamins & minerals rather than plant protein with equal or better results.??

It is good to have participation from one that is well read and experienced with fish nutrition. Your suggestions will help others that are seeking to find the best fish food for their goals or objectives. Again, thanks for the valuable input.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/03/16 07:17 PM)
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#433451 - 01/03/16 05:50 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Bill Cody]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Good discussion. Fish Food has a lot of good ideas to share. Thanks. I like the breakdown of optimum ingredients for the several pond fish categories of Big BG, Mainly LMBass, and Feed the Family/Community. Hybrid striped bass and yellow perch are sometimes thought to require slightly different ingredients for optimum growth AND longevity. I have been told that YP are best suited for a diet similar to salt water fish. Fish Food do you have any literature about this?


Longevity after fast growth to adulthood is a new concern for the sport fish pond enthusiasts. Do you know of any specific literature on this topic??


Thank You for your interest!

Do HSB take pellets well? They are a lot of fun to catch! Again it would depend on the pond owners goals. For good growth and a good life expectancy for these fish the Trophy Bluegill diet would work well. If you want off the chart growth the other diet would work best.

Unfortunately I don't know of any published literature on the subject. That's the main reason I talk about it. As I mentioned earlier life cycle studies would be very costly and time consuming. Many would have to be done due to varying genetics. The cost and scale required to get valid information is simply overwhelming.
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#433454 - 01/03/16 06:47 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5866
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Lot's of the PBF members pellet feed HSB and grow some monsters!
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#433459 - 01/03/16 07:11 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Bill D.]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Lot's of the PBF members pellet feed HSB and grow some monsters!


Thanks for the response. For lb for lb fight they are monsters. I grew up on Lake Martin a 40k acre impoundment in central Alabama. Back in the 80's they stocked HSB. It was a lot of fun catching them around pier lights at night. However after a few years there was a notable drop in the shad population. They were not stocked again.
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#433461 - 01/03/16 07:28 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
I came up with a grain based feed for the Trophy Bluegill Pond.

Ingredients: Soy Meal, Corn Bran and coat with Hydrolyzed Fish

Protein 35% Fat 2% Starch 31% Fiber 18% Ash 4% and Moisture 10%

Grain with a fish candy coating if you will.

Not sure how well they would eat this food. The Hydrolyzed fish should help with that. The cost on this food should be excellent.

Fish are not meant to eat mammal protein. With that said all the other parts meals that I am aware of are off the table.

The protein digestibility is off the charts at 95%. Whole fish meal is only 92-93 percent digestible.

I am ok with the protein at 35% for adults. If you look at the study I linked 35% protein grew juvies at the same rate as 55% protein.
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#433462 - 01/03/16 07:42 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5866
Loc: Boone County Illinois
One problem I see is availability....We have to go with what's available in the market place.....

I have no doubt some of your thoughts are "spot on" but there is no way to validate they are in a pond full of fish.


Edited by Bill D. (01/03/16 07:47 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification
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#433464 - 01/03/16 07:52 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Bill D.]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
One problem I see is availability....We have to go with what's available in the market place.....

I have no doubt some of your thoughts are "spot on" but there is no way to validate they are in a pond full of fish.


What I would suggest is take my thoughts and apply them to what is out there. If you want to post some labels I will be glad to give my opinion on what they would be best suited for.
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#433465 - 01/03/16 07:53 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
I am not reinventing the wheel but simply rounding it a bit.
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#433467 - 01/03/16 08:06 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
The thing that is key for all foods is protein digestibility.

Meeting you pond goals would involve energy (fat and starch) levels.

It ain't rocket surgery.

I am sure there are some good feed the family foods out there now.
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#433468 - 01/03/16 08:08 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5866
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Here's a relatively recent thread you might enjoy.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428745&page=1

When I get a chance I will post a pic of the tag from the chow I am feeding my CC.
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#433497 - 01/03/16 11:18 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Bill D.]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Here's a relatively recent thread you might enjoy.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428745&page=1

When I get a chance I will post a pic of the tag from the chow I am feeding my CC.


Found this study interesting:

http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/lajar/v42n1/art08.pdf
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#433498 - 01/03/16 11:45 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Bill D.]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Here's a relatively recent thread you might enjoy.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428745&page=1

When I get a chance I will post a pic of the tag from the chow I am feeding my CC.


That was interesting and somewhat enlightening. It would appear Mr. West has a good understanding of this topic.
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#433561 - 01/04/16 01:32 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
ewest Offline
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Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19833
Loc: Miss.
Here is some info on nutrition and food value


https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/223/

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post261632

This may help a little - http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post278697



Overall ranges of nutrients for all collections

were as follows: moisture, 69.7-84.9% (N = 52);

ash, 12.0-32.5% (N = 49); protein, 45.4-79.1%

(N = 55); fat, 3.3-31.5% (N = 39); and gross energy,

3.92-6.06 kcal.g (N = 57). Results for ash,

protein, fat, and gross energy are and will be expressed

on a dry-weight basis unless otherwise

specified.



The clupeids examined during the present study

appear to be intermediate in nutritional value in

comparison with other forage fishes. Mean fat percentage

of Dorosoma spp. (24.2%) exceeded that

ofLepomis spp. (15.2%) and fathead minnows Pimephales

promelas (19.1%), but was less than that

of mosquitofish Gambusia affinis (25.8%) and

golden shiners Notemigonus crysoleucas (34.8%)

(Davis and Boyd 1978). Bluegills Lepomis macrochirus

had lower caloric contents (1.06 kcal-g-

on a wet-weight basis) than gizzard and threadfin

shad (1.17 kcal-g on a wet-weight basis) (Minton

and McLean 1982); preliminary data collected

for the present study also showed Lepomis spp. to

he lower in caloric content than the clupeids. The

primary reason for the lower energy content of

Lepomis spp. is probably a higher ash content,

rather than a lower fat content. Mean ash content

of Lepomis spp. was 23.8%; the mean for Dorosoma

spp. was 16.1% (Davis and Boyd 1978).

Scales ofLepomis spp. are larger and thicker than

those of Dorosoma spp., and their skeletal structure

may be more substantial. Scales are about 30-

35% ash on a dry-weight basis (Lagler et al. 1977




Edited by ewest (01/04/16 01:49 PM)
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#433566 - 01/04/16 02:02 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: ewest]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: ewest
Here is some info on nutrition and food value


https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/223/

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post261632

This may help a little - http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post278697



Overall ranges of nutrients for all collections

were as follows: moisture, 69.7-84.9% (N = 52);

ash, 12.0-32.5% (N = 49); protein, 45.4-79.1%

(N = 55); fat, 3.3-31.5% (N = 39); and gross energy,

3.92-6.06 kcal.g (N = 57). Results for ash,

protein, fat, and gross energy are and will be expressed

on a dry-weight basis unless otherwise

specified.



The clupeids examined during the present study

appear to be intermediate in nutritional value in

comparison with other forage fishes. Mean fat percentage

of Dorosoma spp. (24.2%) exceeded that

ofLepomis spp. (15.2%) and fathead minnows Pimephales

promelas (19.1%), but was less than that

of mosquitofish Gambusia affinis (25.8%) and

golden shiners Notemigonus crysoleucas (34.8%)

(Davis and Boyd 1978). Bluegills Lepomis macrochirus

had lower caloric contents (1.06 kcal-g-

on a wet-weight basis) than gizzard and threadfin

shad (1.17 kcal-g on a wet-weight basis) (Minton

and McLean 1982); preliminary data collected

for the present study also showed Lepomis spp. to

he lower in caloric content than the clupeids. The

primary reason for the lower energy content of

Lepomis spp. is probably a higher ash content,

rather than a lower fat content. Mean ash content

of Lepomis spp. was 23.8%; the mean for Dorosoma

spp. was 16.1% (Davis and Boyd 1978).

Scales ofLepomis spp. are larger and thicker than

those of Dorosoma spp., and their skeletal structure

may be more substantial. Scales are about 30-

35% ash on a dry-weight basis (Lagler et al. 1977




Mr. West I want to apologize for my snarky comments earlier. My focus is on the basics of fish nutrition and explaining it in layman's terms so folks not familiar with the subject can understand it.

I think my initial primer was too confusing for most. No offense intended but most published studies and research papers are beyond the understanding of most.

Do you say Go Aggies?

**EDIT** I do have a question that I would like answered. What percentage of starch can be used by a carnivore with its relatively short digestive tract?


Edited by Fish Food (01/04/16 02:12 PM)
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#433578 - 01/04/16 03:34 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
Basic Fish Nutrition Take 2

Let me try to explain the basics of fish nutrition in a way that everyone can understand.

Protein

Proper levels of protein are needed to grow muscle and tissue. Protein will never make your fish fat. Ever.

Protein digestibility is simply the percentage of protein that the fish can actually turn into muscle and tissue. Whole fish meal and soy meal are examples of ingredients with a very good protein digestibility percentage.

Energy

Energy is used to swim, chase prey etc.. Excess energy is stored in the liver and around the fish's internal organs. When fat is stored around the internal organs you would call it a fat fish. Their is nothing wrong with fat fish who will end up on the table or in another fish's gut. One the other hand if your goal is longevity you want a normal amount of fat stored in the fish's liver.

So how do they get fat?

For my purposes here I will treat sugar and starch as one.

The uptake of starch occurs in the fish's digestive tract. Starch is not stored. If the fish's energy requirements (swimming etc ) are not met by its starch intake then fat is used for energy. If the fish's energy requirements (swimming etc ) are met then excess starch is passed. In this case the energy from fat is stored in the fish's liver.

Is that a fair explanation Mr. West?
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#433581 - 01/04/16 04:07 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19833
Loc: Miss.
Fish Food glad you are here. I appreciate the comments and will address them in a new post. I am not a Mr. to anyone but well mannered kids 6 years old and under so no one here uses Mr. with anyone. We are all just PB family.

I usually start at an even more basic approach - food intake (all types) - food used (energy from the sun in one form or fashion) = growth or weight loss.


Edited by ewest (01/04/16 04:13 PM)
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#433600 - 01/04/16 06:03 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: ewest]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: ewest
Fish Food glad you are here. I appreciate the comments and will address them in a new post. I am not a Mr. to anyone but well mannered kids 6 years old and under so no one here uses Mr. with anyone. We are all just PB family.

I usually start at an even more basic approach - food intake (all types) - food used (energy from the sun in one form or fashion) = growth or weight loss.


My name is Clay. What is yours?

by ewest
Eric or ewest will work .


Edited by ewest (01/06/16 11:22 AM)
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#433628 - 01/04/16 08:39 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12804
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This is a great thread that discusses fish food basics, nutrition, and food types.
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#433748 - 01/06/16 03:04 AM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Bill Cody]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
http://prntscr.com/9mo8eo

Aquamax SportFish 500

Protein 41% - The use of chicken by-product meal as the second ingredient and pork blood concerns me as far as protein digestibility goes. I can't find any protein digestibility percentages on chicken by-product meal because it varies from batch to batch.

Fat 12% - Generic animal fat is cause for concern. All fat is not created equal. A whopping 27 points (12 x 2.25 = 27) of energy from fat. Remember my extensive studies show that 30 to 31 points of energy is adequate to maintain healthy fish. In the U of F study after 8 weeks of feeding a diet of 40 points of energy the fish's livers were already 28% covered in fat.

Starch and Sugar - 22% ASSUMED (this is what was left after deducting the others) It takes a minimum of 15% starch to hold the food together.

Fiber - 4%

Ash/Minerals - 11%

Moisture - 10% ASSUMED Much over 10% will lead to the food growing mold.

27 points of energy from fat + 22 points of energy from starch = 49 points of energy. This way too much. I can't see how a fish fed exclusively on this diet can live to its normal life expectancy.

The diet would need to be cut down to around 31 points of energy to insure normal life expectancy. Making these formulas really is a balancing act.
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#433749 - 01/06/16 04:52 AM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
Fish Food Offline


Registered: 10/12/14
Posts: 163
Loc: Alabama
What I would suggest:

Whole Menhaden Meal 38%
Soy Meal 29%
Corn Bran 24%
Wheat Flour 9%
Lysine may be needed to complete the Wheat Flour amino acid profile

Protein Digestibility 88%

30 Points of Energy

Protein 40%
Fat 5%
Starch 19%
Fiber 19%
Ash 7%
Moisture 10%

At 38% whole fish meal they should eat this food really well.

A little fiber passed into your pond won't hurt a thing. If you ask me it beats the hell out of chicken heads and feet and pork blood.

In the aquarium fish food world this is very inexpensive. In the pond fish food world maybe not. However I have learned with higher protein digestibility you can feed less and get equal or more out of it than lower quality feed.
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#433751 - 01/06/16 08:24 AM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2765
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
ewest, Bill Cody, as always I am impressed once again. Clay, from what I have read here, you know your fish food. And good luck with your Tiger bass females and your pond.

Tracy
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#433778 - 01/06/16 01:43 PM Re: Fish Food Primer [Re: Fish Food]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19833
Loc: Miss.
North American Journal of Aquaculture 77: pages 178185, 2015 American Fisheries Society 2015, received July 26, 2014; accepted October 6, 2014.

Performance of Cage-Raised, Overwintered Hybrid Striped Bass Fed Fish Meal- or Soybean-Based Diets by Waldemar Rossi Jr., Joseph R. Tomasso and Delbert M. Gatlin III

Abstract

We conducted a 26-week study to evaluate the performance of cage-raised hybrid Striped Bass (female White Bass Morone chrysops male Striped Bass M. saxatilis) fed fish meal (FM) and soybean (SOY; soybean meal + soy protein concentrate) based diets. A FM reference diet was formulated to contain crude protein (CP) at 450 g/kg, lipid at 120 g/kg, and an estimated digestible energy level of 13 MJ/kg. Two test diets (SOY and SOY+GBA) were formulated to replace 70% of the CP in the reference diet with SBM in the absence or presence of GroBiotic-A (GBA), a yeast-based prebiotic, at 20 g/kg. The other 12% of dietary FM in the reference diet was replaced with SPC in the test diets, further reducing FMinclusion to 70 g/kg. Each diet was fed to quadruplicate groups of 40 advanced juvenile hybrid Striped Bass (initial weight &#8764; 54 g/fish) stocked into each of twelve 1-m3 floating cages, which were equally divided into four 0.05-ha, rubber-lined ponds according to a randomized complete block design. Caged fish in each pond were fed one of the randomly assigned diets to apparent satiation once daily. After 26 weeks of feeding, results showed that (1) the overall growth performance, survival, and feed efficiency of the fish were unaffected by diet; (2) the intraperitoneal fat ratio was significantly lower in fish that received the SOY-based diets; and (3) plasma glucose and lysozyme activity were significantly lower in fish that were fed the SOY-based diets, whereas plasma osmolality, hematocrit, neutrophil oxidative radical production (nitroblue tetrazolium test), and extracellular superoxide anion production of head-kidney macrophages were unaffected by diet. We conclude that low-FM, SOY-based diets can support adequate performance and normal physiological responses of hybrid Striped Bass during overwintering.


Keep in mind that HSB are able to use carbs while most predator fish can not do so. Further they are able to use plant based protein better than other predator fish.


Edited by ewest (01/06/16 01:47 PM)
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