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#433336 01/02/16 01:02 PM
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I see you guys are discussing various fish foods and thought that I would try to help out.

Protein is used to replenish and build muscle and tissue. Protein in excess of 40% is passed by the fish. I can dig up a study if you don't believe me.

Protein digestibility is the percentage of the protein that your fish can use. Most of the protein in your fish food should come from whole fish meal (around 92% digestible protein). Fish parts meals like salmon or catfish should not be used. Fish carcasses don't have much highly digestible protein.

Fat is the form of energy that can be stored. Excessive fat or in better terms excessive energy in the fish's diet is stored in the liver. Females need fat stored in the liver to produce eggs.

Starch is a carbohydrate form of energy that cannot be stored. Starch that is not used as energy is harmlessly passed.

Sugar is a carbohydrate form of energy that cannot be stored.

The order that energy is used first to last: 1. Sugar 2. Starch 3. Fat

Fiber is also a carbohydrate. Fiber aids in digestion. Excess fiber is passed harmless into your pond.

Minerals need to be replenished as they are used. Excess minerals are passed harmlessly into your pond.

Moisture is water content.

Example:

XYZ GameFish Food Honestly this will work for any carnivore

Protein - 39%
Fat - 11%
Starch and Sugar - 27%
Fiber - 3%
Minerals - 10%
Moisture - 10%

Total Energy(fat, starch and sugar) 52
11% Fat x 2.25 = 24.75 + 27% Starch and Sugar = 51.75

In the worst case your fish might pass some starch and store all of the fat. The big advantage in my mind anyway is plenty of stored fat for females to produce a bumper crop of healthy eggs.

I hope this helps.


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Good discussion topic. ""Protein in excess of 40% is passed by the fish."" Why is this true and is it always true for every protein type and fish species? Different fish species have proven to have significantly different nutrition requirements. It is true for all fish or certain species or types of fish?

Not all proteins (amino acid composition) are the same and probably some proteins have better digestibility - depending. Some proteins are highly indigestible. I think some of your comments above are schooled generalizations and are not complete truisms. A lot of them are probably "it all depends". Depends on the fish species, type or quality of food compound. and the way the food is processed which can affect the digestibility, usefulness as a nutrient and probably several other factors.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/02/16 01:28 PM.

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Optima fish feed has no fish meal. Right Bill?

It seems to do great for bluegills.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 01/02/16 01:56 PM.

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Hi Bill,

The test results that I mentioned was on growing out juvenile carnivores. There wasn't substantial growth difference between a 35% protein food and a 55% protein food. Note these were growing fish which are using as much protein as they ever will to build muscle and tissue. The growth difference occurred in varying levels of starch and fat. Marine fat like crude menhaden oil works best in my opinion. This was the case for a carnivore and omnivore used in testing. Honestly there is no difference in digestion between a LMB, Bluegill or carnivorous catfish.

I can post a link if you would like. I will warn you that its quite lengthy.

Whole Menhaden, Herring or Anchovy meal are great (92% - 93% digestibility). I have found that Menhaden is very highly palatable for carnivores. Parts meals even of marine sources are generally very poor quality. Fish really aren't designed to eat warm blooded protein. Extruding the food at high temperatures effects the protein very little. However it does cook away some fat and destroys naturally occurring vitamins.

I have studied fish nutrition going on seven years now on my own. Read boring studies, done my own testing and messed around with different formulas just to see how it worked out.


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If above 40 percent protein is passed why do feed manufacturers continue to produce feed that is up to 50 percent protein? Was always told the higher protein levels are imperative for younger smaller fish i.e. fry and fingerlings.


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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Optima fish feed as no fish meal. Right Bill?

It seems to do great for bluegills.


Soy meal maybe?

I would like to see the ingredient list and protein etc. numbers if possible.

You guys are the pond experts. I am just trying to help out in an area that some consider me an expert. However I do not consider myself an expert as I try to learn something new every day.


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Would you like me to post a link or growth numbers on the different diets?

If the protein digestibility was poor enough 50 might really be 35.


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Cecil,

Protein Fat Starch
#1 55 19.4 18.8
#2 56 13.0 19.7
#3 56 8.3 21.3
#4 36 20.0 34.5
#5 35 11.0 54.0
#6 36 9.5 42.2

#1 118% increase in total length, 364% increase in weight
#2 123% increase in total length, 367% increase in weight
#3 111% increase in total length, 353% increase in weight
#4 116% increase in total length, 364% increase in weight
#5 121% increase in total length, 297% increase in weight
#6 114% increase in total length, 356% increase in weight

Diet #5 was like rubber and the fish didn't eat it well

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00003586/00001/1j

#1 Total Energy Gain 62.4
#2 Total Energy Gain 49
#3 Total Energy Gain 40
#4 Total Energy Gain 79.5
#5 Total Energy Gain 78.8
#6 Total Energy Gain 63.6

**EDIT** Changed Numbers because I mistakenly used the wrong Table

Last edited by Fish Food; 01/02/16 04:32 PM.

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Glad you edited the numbers. You had me really scratching my head on trying to correlate the conclusions you stated with the numbers posted! smile

The link you posted is interesting but I'm not sure whether it is applicable to say a BG or LMB. There has been a lot of data posted in PBF threads regarding different nutrition requirements vs species. For example, CC do very well on 30% protein grain based pellets with little to no benefit shown by going with a higher protein fish meal based pellet.

You mentioned that you are considered an expert on fish nutrition by some folks. Can you fill us in on that a little. We can always use more pros here at PBF!


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Do amino acids and trace minerals have much to do with fish food or does it not matter?

What about palatability? What is used to help minimize "pick and spit"?

You said that there is no difference in digestion between LMB, BG and carnivorous catfish. Are there differences in nutritional requirements for each of those 3 species?


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I know several professional fish nutritionists and fish physiologists who will disagree with several of your generalizations depending on which fish specie you are referring to and the nutritional needs of that specie. No doubt some of what you are saying is true but IMO it does not apply to all species and sizes of fish. I think nutrition requirements especially protein changes as the fish ages. A lot is yet to be learned about fish nutrition and the long term needs for each species for good health of each specie of fish.

I also will ask the same question as posed by Cecil: why do they make noticeably higher protein foods for fish fry and fingerlings? Is it just to make more money from uneducated fish growers?

I'm not trying to be contradictory, just asking questions and expressing some of what I've learned so far about fish nutrition.

One has to be careful to not wholeheartedly believe everything that is in print. Go to some professional meetings where research is presented and listen to the critical comments about the scientific methods used by some researchers. Faulty scientific method can lead to faulty biased conclusions that are put into print.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/02/16 09:18 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Glad you edited the numbers. You had me really scratching my head on trying to correlate the conclusions you stated with the numbers posted! smile

The link you posted is interesting but I'm not sure whether it is applicable to say a BG or LMB. There has been a lot of data posted in PBF threads regarding different nutrition requirements vs species. For example, CC do very well on 30% protein grain based pellets with little to no benefit shown by going with a higher protein fish meal based pellet.

You mentioned that you are considered an expert on fish nutrition by some folks. Can you fill us in on that a little. We can always use more pros here at PBF!


My apology for the error.

What happens differently once that pellet goes down the fish's gullet than any other species like it? If you have a different food for every fish in the pond you can sell a lots more food.

The trick with pond fish seems to be getting them to eat the pellet. You can train a fish in an aquarium to eat a wheat pellet if thats all you give them for a period of time. Bluegill are easy subjects as the naturally feed on top. How does anyone know shellcrackers wouldn't eat the same if sinking?

I do the formulas for Paradigm Fish Food. Paradigm is a fish food for aquarium hobbyist's. Our goal was to make fish food without excessive fat being stored in the fish's liver. We decided to gradually lower the energy in our test diets for carnivore, omnivore and herbivore. After a period of lowering the energy it worked as the fish which had been breeding very well stopped. That was at 28 to 29 points of energy. We raised the energy back up to 30 to 31 points of energy and all the fish started breeding again.

What I offer this board is an unbiased opinion as I have nothing to sell. This board was very kind to me a year or so back when I was trying to help a friend with his predator stunted pond.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Do amino acids and trace minerals have much to do with fish food or does it not matter?

What about palatability? What is used to help minimize "pick and spit"?

You said that there is no difference in digestion between LMB, BG and carnivorous catfish. Are there differences in nutritional requirements for each of those 3 species?


Amino acids determine protein digestibility so yes they are crucial. Minerals may not be needed because of what they eat naturally but is a nice hedge to insure they are getting all they need.

Fish meal, Fish Oil and I have heard Hydrolyzed Fish along with salt are all good. Shrimp meal is better than all listed above but the protein digestibility is so poor I wouldn't recommend it.

Once the pellet goes down the gullet a carnivore is a carnivore is a carnivore.


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I know several professional fish nutritionists and fish physiologists who will disagree with several of your generalizations depending on which fish specie you are referring to and the nutritional needs of that specie. No doubt some of what you are saying is true but IMO it does not apply to all species and sizes of fish. I think nutrition requirements especially protein changes as the fish ages. A lot is yet to be learned about fish nutrition and the long term needs for each species for good health of each specie of fish.

I also will ask the same question as posed by Cecil: why do they make noticeably higher protein foods for fish fry and fingerlings? Is it just to make more money from uneducated fish growers?

I'm not trying to be contradictory, just asking questions and expressing some of what I've learned so far about fish nutrition.

One has to be careful to not wholeheartedly believe everything that is in print. Go to some professional meetings where research is presented and listen to the critical comments about the scientific methods used by some researchers. Faulty scientific method can lead to faulty biased conclusions that are put into print.


If your friends want to come on and discuss fish nutrition I welcome them. I would love for someone to tell me why a LMB and SMB need different foods. Oh but LMB eat bluegill and SMB eat crayfish. Its true they have adopted different hunting styles because of the habitat in which they are comfortable. Once the food goes down the gullet its all the same. At the end of the day it all comes down to biology. A food containing 40% P 11% F AND 20% Starch will grow them so close to the same rate that you won't notice the difference.

I don't object to raising protein to 50% for fry and juvies. The length of time that they are fed this food is so short that no harm is done. A diet high in protein and marine fat will produce fantastic growth rates. However the study that I posted and several others have shown very little difference in growth between 35% P and 55% P. My guess is the optimal protein percentage for growth is 40 - 45 percent.

If it were one study showing 35% protein worked as well as 55% protein food that might have a leg to stand on.

They are arguing because the studies in question are not in their best financial interest. Industry studies tend to favor the result of the client paying for the study. That's why studies done at universities hold more credibility. The study I linked was done for fish farmers in South Florida. They were losing abnormal percentages of their stock and didn't know why. They provided the fish and U of F did the study. They got the result they wanted on the 35% protein food but still had no idea why their fish were dying.

Can you imagine me going too one of these seminars and saying what I am saying here? What can I possibly gain from coming on here and telling you lies or half truths? Who benefits from a different fish food for every fish under the sun? It for sure ain't me.

You seem to think that I have read a few studies and formed some half-baked opinions. I can assure you that I have spent countless hours studying fish nutrition, fish studies and done testing on my own. All I can do is tell you what I have learned.


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To clarify on a different food for every fish. Its an easy sell. I bought it for many years. If it were true wouldn't LMB food be made from bluegill and HSB food be made from shad. In reality it is providing enough protein to maintain and grow tissue and muscle mass and enough energy (fat and starch) to make them plump.

Ideally a food for carnivores should look like this: 40% P 7% F and 20% Starch. Unfortunately this causes problems. Moisture content over 10% has a good chance of growing mold. Getting over 5% fiber without using exotic ingredients is impossible. Minerals seem to max out at around 10%. So where is the remaining 8%? As you can see its not easy limiting protein, starch and fat and make a formula work.

Typically this would be remedied like this: 40% P 7% F 28% Starch 5% Fiber 10% Minerals or Ash and 10% moisture. The problem with this solution is excess energy.

I will try to come up with a formula that limits starch and raises either minerals or fiber.

**EDIT** Fish with short digestive tracts like carnivores can only extract so much starch before it is passed.

Last edited by Fish Food; 01/03/16 03:46 AM.

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I have found PB to be very accommodating to a great many viewpoints and ideas. But there are a great many professionals here, who do this stuff for a living. And while home grown results are welcome, verification via education and documentation might be required in order to effect productive dialogue and discussion.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
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TGW1 #433415 01/03/16 12:07 PM
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I believe there is a optimum fish food for each fish species "group" for us pond owners, not necessarily each individual fish species. i.e. one food is best for BG, another food is best for Pumpkinseeds, etc. While there might be food available for each species in a monoculture, that is not what we have in our ponds.

Is a bass different than a BG in it's nutritional needs for optimal growth and longevity? I believe so. I don't believe that there is enough of a difference between LMB and SMB to warrant a different food in a pond setting. Even if there was, how does a pond owner get the correct food into the correct species of fish if both species of fish are in the pond, and they are approximately the same size?

In a pond setting, where there isn't a monoculture of fish, getting the correct fish food formula into the stomachs of the correct fish is the quandary.

I could see fish food for pond owners broken down into a couple of "groups".

Fry/fingerling food. BUT how to get it to them in a pond setting; in a place where they won't be hammered by the predators in the pond? Will enough of the pond owners buy the food to make it commercially viable to produce? Since fry/fingerling fish need a different formula, i.e. a "hotter" food, it requires different ingredients, and that makes the food more expensive to produce. Will pond owners be willing to dig deeper into their pockets to buy the food?

Sunfish food. For the "sunfish" in the pond, that are used either as primary goal of the pond owner "I want to grow a 3 pound Bluegill" or as forage fish for the LMB in the pond where the pond owners goals is to grow trophy LMB.

Bass food For the largemouth bass in the pond, a food to give them more food without having to expend a lot of energy chasing down live fish in the pond. Would it work as a food for other species of bass in the pond? I think so. Especially for SMB or spotted bass. Would it work for HSB? I think so, but I am not sure because I don't know what the physiological differences are (nutrition wise) between LMB/SMB and HSB.

Then you have the quandary of just supplementally feeding the fish in the pond, or making the decision to feed enough food to make it the primary food source of the fish in the pond. If that route is taken, then I believe the pond owner has to either have fish species that have minimal or no recruitment, or make a concerted effort to remove the majority of YOY in the pond to keep the biomass in check.

I think the food for fish in ponds is more representative of food formulated for aquarium fish vs. aquaculture fish. In aquariums you want fish to be in that tank for more than 9-18 months, where in an aquaculture setting the fish get to meet Mr. Fillet Knife in a relatively short amount of time.


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What about my YP?!? ;-)
Just kidding. With all the different types of fish I have in there, and really not being interested in growing trophy, but tasty fish.. And only having one feeder, which I visit weekly at best, I think I'll look for a good all around feed, and be content with the results.


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RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
What about my YP?!? ;-)
Just kidding. With all the different types of fish I have in there, and really not being interested in growing trophy, but tasty fish.. And only having one feeder, which I visit weekly at best, I think I'll look for a good all around feed, and be content with the results.


Patience grasshopper! laugh

We're working on a line of fish food for the pondmeister that will allow you to mix different sized food for the different species in your pond, and at the same time making it of the correct size that a standard Texas Hunter fish feeder can throw it. The pond owner might have to adjust their spin plate to throw the largest pelleted food, but they wouldn't have to buy a special feeder. wink


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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I have found PB to be very accommodating to a great many viewpoints and ideas. But there are a great many professionals here, who do this stuff for a living. And while home grown results are welcome, verification via education and documentation might be required in order to effect productive dialogue and discussion.


Hey PondBoss

I genuinely appreciate what you and the other pond management professionals do here.

I am sure that you realize the cost and effort that goes into the life cycle study for one fish.

I have no grand delusions that my findings will turn the pond fish food world on its ear. The studies that I have done were for my benefit. However my findings are not limited to aquarium fish.


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Originally Posted By: esshup

Is a bass different than a BG in it's nutritional needs for optimal growth and longevity?



You hit the key words. Its a balance between excellent growth and excess stored fat shortening the life of the fish.

Lets look at this in terms of goals.

Trophy Bluegill Pond
Here you need to limit excess energy (fat an starch) in your feed so they will have the best chance to grow to their maximum size.

Ideal Diet - 40% Protein 6% F 20% Starch

Trophy LMB Pond
In this case there is no need in limiting energy. Its simply more likely the bluegill will burn out faster. Excess fat leads to larger spawns also.

Ideal Diet - 40% Protein 6% F 35% Starch

Feed the Family Pond
The more energy the better!

Ideal Diet - 40% Protein 6% F 35% Starch

Do you like this approach better?


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There is a lot to fish nutrition and much to be learned. There are hundreds of studies on various species. There is a huge difference between what a herbivore an omnivore and a carnivore need in nutrition. That is why we did the presentation on fish nutrition at the PB conv.
















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Originally Posted By: Fish Food
......


You hit the key words. Its a balance between excellent growth and excess stored fat shortening the life of the fish.

Lets look at this in terms of goals.

Trophy Bluegill Pond
Here you need to limit excess energy (fat an starch) in your feed so they will have the best chance to grow to their maximum size.

Ideal Diet - 40% Protein 6% F 20% Starch

Trophy LMB Pond
In this case there is no need in limiting energy. Its simply more likely the bluegill will burn out faster. Excess fat leads to larger spawns also.

Ideal Diet - 40% Protein 6% F 35% Starch

Feed the Family Pond
The more energy the better!

Ideal Diet - 40% Protein 6% F 35% Starch

Do you like this approach better?




Interesting discussion. The example you provide is for BG in three different scenarios, correct? I find it interesting that your hypothetical diets hold lipids at 6%. I would expect to see maybe twice that.

On a different note, I have always wondered how manufactured food stacks up against natural forage. For example, we know LMB love to eat trout and grow exceptionally well on that diet. Obviously, pellets require less energy to catch. Have you run across any info in your studies that breaks down different natural forages into the categories of protein, fat and starch?

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/03/16 04:52 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Originally Posted By: ewest
There is a lot to fish nutrition and much to be learned. There are hundreds of studies on various species. There is a huge difference between what a herbivore an omnivore and a carnivore need in nutrition. That is why we did the presentation on fish nutrition at the PB conv.



Fish haven't changed. Mans opinion has. Please give me an example of what you consider unknown in fish nutrition.

I have not said there isn't a difference between carnivores, omnivores and herbivores.

Do you have something in print from the convention?


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1 year after stocking question
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Yellow Perch Spawn 2024
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New 2 acre pond stocking plan
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Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
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Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
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Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
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Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

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