Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,080
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,414
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
14 members (jludwig, Donatello, catscratch, DrLuke, esshup, Requa, Shorthose, Blestfarmpond, JasonInOhio, H20fwler, Theo Gallus, Justin W, LeighAnn, Bob Lusk), 844 guests, and 210 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Lets talk crappie as a forage fish for lmb. There is a lot of information here about not having crappie in a pond that is smaller than 20 acres. So, I have not stocked any crappie (crappy) in my 3.5 acre pond. But my goal is to grow extra large lmb. In my reading here, along with many discussions I have enjoyed here and with others, I still look for answers on how to get there. In what I have learned, the crappie will compete for the minnows that will feed my lmb and that results in slower growth rates of the lmb. But, when growing extra large lmb(if possible to do so), the lmb with the proper genetics will grow pretty fast to 10 lbs, feeding on FHM's amd 3 to 8" BG along with TFS, Tilapia and crawfish. But what about 15lb lmb or 18lb lmb or larger lmb? I would think most of this forage would be to small for the xl lmb and would not put weight on the lmb. So would crappie fill this nitch? What about HYB Crappie? What about male or female crappie only, added to the pond ? A 12" crappie would feed a 30" or larger lmb. I also think the crappie is less likely to choke or hang up in the throat of these larger lmb. I have seen a 4 lb lmb die with a BG hung up in their throat. As many of you know, I have stocked the CBLMB purchased from Overtons Fishery, I think these fish have the ability to grow to XL LMB. So what say you? One more thing I have seen is when using Tilapia for forage, they are introduced in April or May here and are gone in late Nov., leaving 4 to 5 months of reduced forage in the pond. The crappie would be there 12 months out of the year. Am I just hard headed here ? smile
Thanks

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Tracy, I'm no help with crappie as LMB forage stocking info, but I did see this post just now on TFF and thought back to your post. I wish this guy would have gotten some measurements.
LMB death by crappie

This is my past experience with death by dinner.
LMB FLoater


AL

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
Tracy, the ONLY upside to having Crappie in a trophy LMB pond would be the Crappie spawning before the LMB, and hammering the LMB fry so you don't need to remove as many by angling. Far too many downsides for that one upside, imo. Crappie will take out the forage before the forage fish grow large enough to feed the bigger bass. Adding Crappie would most likely REDUCE LMB growth potential.

LMB don't grow on FHM after reaching 6-8". FHM are for young LMB only. Your TFS and BG are the real forage producers, and Tilapia are a huge forage maker



Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Rainman
..... Crappie will take out the forage before the forage fish grow large enough to feed the bigger bass. Adding Crappie would most likely REDUCE LMB growth potential.

LMB don't grow on FHM after reaching 6-8". FHM are for young LMB only. ....


This is where I think Tracy and I share confusion. Tracy, correct me if I'm wrong.

Why not let the Crappie eat the FHM (or other minnow maybe GSH would be better), since the larger LMB won't, let the crappie control the LMB recruitment and then let the larger LMB (and people smile ) eat crappie? Leads to a LMB, Big crappie and minnow pond, assuming the crappie limit BG recruitment as well, maybe big BG? I think Pat W has a pond accidentally stocked this way right now.

Just a thought...I wonder if one reason LMB and crappie ponds fail is that the ratio of crappies to LMB initially stocked is off. Are crappies stocked at the same rate as if they are BG? Do you need to stock way less crappie to get balance?

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/02/16 07:25 PM. Reason: Clarification

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Since crappie spawn once per year in a pond, what happens to your forage base for that year if the weather is such that they don't pull off a successful spawn? BG spawn multiple times per year, so having a failed spawn for one month isn't that big of a deal.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
I was thinking stock BG as well. The crappie also need the multiple BG spawn as the LMB spawn will quickly out grow the mouth gap of the crappie.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/02/16 08:26 PM. Reason: Clarification

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Tracy, I'm no help with crappie as LMB forage stocking info, but I did see this post just now on TFF and thought back to your post. I wish this guy would have gotten some measurements.
LMB death by crappie

This is my past experience with death by dinner.
LMB FLoater


I saw death by crappie at one of our local lakes 3 or 4 years years ago, a 19"+ LMB tried to eat an 8 to 9" crappie and got the crappie stuck in its gills. Surprisingly the crappie was still alive when I pulled them apart.



Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Bill D. is making some thoughtful comments for this topic. Having crappie could likely consume some to maybe significant numbers of the LMB fry (3/4"-1.5") reducing chances of too many LMB. Larger LMB fingerlings would most likely escape crappie predation fro various reasons. Using only crappie as the panfish is as esshup says "what happens when crappie have a poor spawn" which can commonly occur? What feeds the bass intended for trophy status?. Crappie are known for boom and bust spawning recruitment. For this reason, I would not use poorly spawning hybrid crappie nor only male-female crappie as a goal for producing trophy bass. For this to succeed, I think you will need as suggested, one to three additional forage species for when crappie numbers are low density. Even then, chancers of producing several 8 LB+ bass/acre is unlikely using this crappie stocking plan.

If you only want a few crappie as bonus fish the hybrid crappie or only male/female individuals are the best choice.

Crappie and bass may thrive with threadfins and or golden shiners. Large bass would eat significant numbers or sub-harvest size crappies 5"-7" whenever they are common. Problem is we don't have lots of test ponds with crappie to provide reliable information. If you are willing to risk your fishery and then be willing and able to renovate the unbalanced fishery then try your crappie idea. If it were my pond I would first allow the bass to get to the 16"-17" sizes before stocking crappie so ample numbers of bass can consume 5"-6" recruitment crappie.

This thread will be placed into the Archives in the crappie topic.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/03/16 04:09 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 996
Likes: 57
T
Offline
T
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 996
Likes: 57
FWIW......I have healthy populations of both BCP and LMB and still have an over population of small bass.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=429404#Post429404

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,861
Likes: 298
A
Offline
A
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,861
Likes: 298
Tracy, I'm sure no expert, but given your determination to grow REALLY BIG LMB, you might consider the following forage fish:

Gizzard Shad. Only when your bass are big enough to keep them in check, but could be worth the risk.

Golden Shiners. Less risky, and they help keep bass numbers down by eating their eggs.

Rainbow Trout. Much easier for a bass to eat than a BG or a Crappie due to their slender shape. Note that those California 18 plus pound bass got that way primarily in lakes with stocked trout.

If I were in your boots (not shoes), I'd look hard at the trout first. Lowest risk, and you would stock them right about the time the TLP play out. The trout would get sluggish when it warms in spring and either die naturally or get eaten. Size of the trout could be optimized to be ideal for the size of your bass, too.

The downside to trout is that you must keep buying them every year, like Tilapia.

Just my thoughts. Once your CMBLMB hit 10 lbs, your gonna need some pretty darn big forage! Come to think of it, there's a yappy little dog my neighbor owns that could use some swimming lessons...

Last edited by anthropic; 01/03/16 02:54 AM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Fireishot,Al I feel your pain frown losing any lmb over 10 lbs out of your pond would Suck. And Bill D. we see some of the same ideas. One of the biggest problems in LMB ponds (if I understand it) is to many lmb in a pond reduces forage fish and cause stunting of lmb. Crappie spawn before lmb (in a normal yr) then feeding on lmb fry, and that may reduce the number of lmb fry, which may reduce overcrowding of lmb. But in a good crappie spawning yr, it may improve the number of 6 to 10" crappie forage for feeding XL CBlmb. This would also reduce the pressure off of the OTS CNBG which may increase size and numbers of cnbg for feeding the XL CBlmb. You would have to continue feeding the CNBG or cnbg might stunt. And Mr. Cody, and esshup, I was not thinking of having just crappie for forage, but for additional forage in the 8 to 10" size to feed XL lmb. I am also thinking of the shape of the crappie verses the shape of a 10" BG. I think of a recent picture from Flame of his dinner plate CNBG and I think of Al(fireishot). The shape of a 10" crappie looks like it might slide down the lmb easier than swallowing a dinner plate shaped bg. I also think Shorty is correct in his findings. But the crappie still looks easier to swallow over a Flame or Condello sized BG. And Rainman, I agree about the Tilapia for lmb forage, they are great, but again to my original statement, the Tp are not in the pond five months of the yr. The crappie might survive providing a larger forage all year. And Frank, I agree with you, but like Tp, trout are in our ponds for a short time, and I may add GSD as my Legacy CBLMB grow to the 6 lb range(predicted in just another yr or so) but I can't eat gizzards but I can eat crappie smile
So, as Bill Cody has said, little information on such things here, And so keeping this in mind, how would one might approach this? Would hyb crappie be a way to approach this or will they revert back to just crappie? Is it possible to select sex of a crappie, like Shorty does with RES? Any idea's here? I am thinking out loud here guys

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: TGW1
......So, as Bill Cody has said, little information on such things here, And so keeping this in mind, how would one might approach this? Would hyb crappie be a way to approach this or will they revert back to just crappie? Is it possible to select sex of a crappie, like Shorty does with RES? Any idea's here? I am thinking out loud here guys

Tracy


Also thinking out loud here....I would consider stocking a limited number of BCP (both sexes). Their spawn and successive size classes will provide additional forage for every size class of LMB. By limiting stocking to a small number, you might avoid the crappie over population issue. I would think stocking single sex or limited reproductive crappie would be kind of like stocking trout or Tilapia in that they will require supplemental stocking.

I hope Pat W. sees this thread. If I'm not mistaken, his pond is stocked with LMB, BCP, CNBG and GSH? I would like to hear if he has seen any signs of BCP over population in his 5 acre.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/03/16 09:14 AM. Reason: Clarification

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
The formula for growing big LMB is pretty simple, low densities of LMB along with high densities of appropriate sized forage.

If it were me with a small pond I would stick to LMB/BG and skew the initial stocking numbers so that I ended up with a lot of stunted 3" to 5" BG and low numbers of LMB. Your initial LMB stockers will have the best potential for growing to trophy size. In addition you would want to limit structure/cover so that YOY LMB fry were easily taken care of by the stunted BG and initial LMB stockers. You could add BCP to mix after a few years once the unbalanced fishery dynamics are in place.

Keep in mind that and unbalanced fishery approach will grow big LMB, but they will not be easy to catch.



Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Thanks Shorty, I am thinking I may wait a few more seasons before or if I stock some crappie. But to achieve my goal of growing XL lmb, I think it may be necessary to think outside the Box, so to speak. By stocking the Overtons Fishery CBLMB, I am sure the genetics are there to grow lmb that exceed the 12 lb mark and maybe reach those 15 and 17lb range in a relatively short period of time. But in order to do so, high forage rates are necessary, and that may reduce catch rates on artificial baits. But what if a pond is full of heavier XL lmb, would that not improve the catch rates? Assuming they are not hook shy. A 3,5 acre pond might be easier to manage over a 5 acre pond. One might be able to increase the carrying capability of the pond for XL lmb? A pond that has aeration, and good water quality can carry more total weight, if I understand it. I am not trying to build an ego here, I just want a pond full of XL LMB, with some large sized forage to keep them growing. Anthropic mentioned Rainbows along with GSD. And I think GSD are in most trophy lmb ponds. But GSD make a terrible meal for the pond owner, and so I was thinking crappie might fill that nitch. They are great eating for pond owners and I was thinking the shape and size might make great eating for XL CBLMB. Bill D. invited Pat to come in, his pond is fairly new (I think) but the last report I saw, he was having trouble catching crappie and had lmb most everywhere. Maybe he will post up his experience. His pond is slightly larger than mine by 1+ acre or so.
Question here, why does there have to be fewer XL lmb in a pond? If pond is full of forage, why are there reduced numbers of XL LMB?

Tracy

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 01/03/16 10:25 AM. Reason: question added

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
B
Offline
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
Tracy -

You can have a lot of large LMB in a body of water. I fished a pond regularly for 3 months and almost every LMB landed was at least 5 lbs, and in any given week many 10+ LMBs were landed.

A couple of variables for this pond:
- Catch and release for all LMB
- Loads of forage fish in the pond, and on average 3 meals pumped in 5 days each week form a 6" diameter pipe (baitshop pumped out their dead and dying and weak baitfish into the pond)


This pond has turned over twice that I know of in the past 8 years. This Summer it turned over and it was amazing to see the entire pond surface covered in fish, many dead but many standing upright gasping for oxygen. The number of dead LMB in the 5-8 lb range was in more than 3 dozen. There were over 20 LMB larger than 10 lbs.

This pond has a surface area of approximately 1 acre, average depth of 6.5 feet.

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,358
Likes: 4
Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,358
Likes: 4
Tracy,

What do you think of the trout idea? They would seem to fill that good for LMB and for people to eat niche you describe without the overpopulation problem.

I've seen what happens when you feed LMB trout at Castaic Lake in California. That's where the -teen pounders are coming from.

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Tracy, IMHO, you've built a very strong foundation for your LMB growth. I would personally let that foundation cure a smidge before I amended my plans. You can always add fish, but it can be tough to get rid of the one's you don't want after the fact.


AL

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
I would go the Trout route before going the Crappie route. For growing large LMB, all you have to do is look at the historical data from the California Reservoirs. Castiac, Dixon, Casitas, Miramar Reservoir, etc. All of them get winter stockings of Rainbow Trout on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. RBT have a lot of calories per mouthful, more so than Crappie.

Here's a link to the Ca DF&W stocking dates for RBT. Look at the frequency that they plant them, and then bounce around the different lakes to see what fish species are in them, and the stocking rates.

For instance, look at the frequency and rate of RBT stocking in Castiac:
http://www.castaiclake.com/fishing.html

Keep in mind that the lake is 2,400 acres. BUT, you can see that they stocked 8,000 pounds of RBT in November alone one year..... shocked


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Originally Posted By: esshup
Keep in mind that the lake is 2,400 acres. BUT, you can see that they stocked 8,000 pounds of RBT in November alone one year..... shocked



Yep, trout are certainly one of the best LMB options, and I really, really wish they'd live here for 5-6 months. That would sure make the tilapia/trout forage combo a game changer. In our area, retail on those 8,000 pounds of RBT would be $80,000.


AL

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Yep, trout are certainly one of the best LMB options, and I really, really wish they'd live here for 5-6 months. That would sure make the tilapia/trout forage combo a game changer. In our area, retail on those 8,000 pounds of RBT would be $80,000.


Crowley Lake near Mammoth is 5,280 acres and "is stocked with hundreds of thousands of small and medium sized trout" per year and they expect a typical catch rate of 50,000 RBT just on the trout opening day weekend alone.

There's 23 hatcheries in California, and I have no idea how many trout they raise for stocking annually. They typically would stock streams and reservoirs every week or at a minimum, every two weeks. When you consider how big the state is, and all the waters that they stock, that's a heck of a lot of fish!! They won't survive the warm weather in the streams further South in the state, but some would live all year long in the reservoirs due to their water clarity and depth. BUT, a lot were eaten by LMB in the reservoirs too!! It's not usual to have a catfish and trout fishery in the same BOW, but out there it was common.

How 'bout a 113 pound Blue Cat? https://www.wonews.com/t-SCFreshReport-BRADLEYSchweit-091808.aspx

When I lived there, every year they would stock some of the brooder trout in some of the streams. Those fish are 10-20 pounds each.

Trout fishing in Ca. is a big thing, and lots of people make the pilgrimage every year to the mountain streams for the opener of trout season. A friend had a timeshare there, and we would make the 6+ hr drive (370 miles) every year for the opener and fish the whole weekend.

I remember one day just walking a few streams with his son, who was around 12-13. We flat wore out a few rooster tail spinners that day, I remember catching slightly over 100 trout one day; all the hair was worn off of the spinner before the end of that day. The hold over fish in Crowley Lake from the previous year all had red flesh, that's how you could tell them from the stockers.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Scott, I was at a seminar one time, and Byron Velvick was hanging around and talked about his high school years fishing the trout stockings in CA. He said the LMB learned that fish hauling trucks meant an easy meal, and they would literally follow the hatchery trucks as they drove across the dam to the ramp the RBT were dumped at. He was still smiling as he related the story.

Isn't CA where the super big swimbaits originated?

Last edited by FireIsHot; 01/03/16 01:44 PM.

AL

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
That's them. I actually have a 7" wooden articulated BG swimbait that's pretty cool. Only problem is I don't have any rods that'll throw a 3oz bait.


AL

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
I think to grow the higher numbers of large bass in a relative small pond as in TGW1's plan, he needs to be prepared to periodically supplementally stock forage similar to that described by basslover(stressed bait)and esshup(trout). Excess, easy catch forage is key especially for higher numbers of bass pushing carrying capacity in the smaller pond. Adding diversity of forage is also important to provide easy meals for big bass in all seasons. Dying tilapia in fall, haul stress trout in winter and then dying in late spring(TX), and other 'regular' mid-sized fish in the warm season. Big bass thrive on easy meals (following the trout stock trucks example). IMO big predators rely heavily on weak, stressed fish who many of them are likely senescent injured fish and no one else is big enough to eat them. This is where threadfins can be important since they are low temperature sensitive.

Since BG are not known to live long in the south and they as dying maybe stunted fish at 6"-8" long, are good meals for the largest bass. IMO ideally to grow higher numbers of trophy class bass in a smaller pond (>10Ac) one should have a forage pond devoted to growing optimum, frequent, add-stock forage for big bass. Be the equivalent of your own state trout stocking operation.

Get your biggest bass accustomed to your adding easy catch meals. Bruce Condello does a version of this to grow this large prize catch bass. Even if one has to catch the forage from their own pond, stress it, and add it as easy catch bass food. It's not easy nor quick,,,, but it reliably produces excellent results. My dad and I were doing this to grow big bass back in the late 1960's using fish collected weekly from the creek stressing the fish and hand feeding a frenzy of big pond bass.

Another example: This summer in May I had a left over 8.0" SMB in a cage. Three to four times weekly, I added to the cage 6-12 tail clipped GSF(2"-3") from my pond. In mid summer when water was 78F-83F the bass would eat 4-5 GSF per day. By end of October the Smallie was 12.5" long.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/03/16 04:55 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
Tracy
I do have crappie and the bass that were bucket stocked have pretty much taken over eating the forage. Was reeling in a 7 " crappie and a 4+ lb bass sucked it down, I foufht it for a while till it gave up and spit out the crappie sans scales, so I do know that they will eat crappie 7" and up fairly easily. Had this happen on several occasions. For a while I was catching lots of crappie up to 12" but now only catch 7-8" ones . Since the rain have not caught any crappie at all......since my pond is new I wasn't ready for bass untill the crappie got off their first spawn- which is what I'm now catching as 7". Not really sure what happened to the 10-14" stockers that were put in originally. There is no YOY cnbg that I can see just 8" YOY bass . They got ahead of BG and have cleaned them out. I am culling all bass till I start to see YOY CNBG again. Never saw the first baby tilapia and still haven't seen any dead tilapias from the cold. It is a hit or miss thing going on.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Another important item to consider for this topic is to strongly suppress recruitment of small bass. LMbass are notorious for overpopulating ponds. One topic that has not been heavily explored and researched is what are the best predators of small bass to keep their numbers and density low? Are pike, chain pickerel, hybrid musky or another predator the answer?


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Bill, depending on the amount of cover in a pond, I think a pond owner can put a significant dent in the recruitment population of YOY LMB if the visibility is 24"-36" and they fish the shallow water in their pond with 2"-3" imitation minnows (crank baits), paddle tails or jerk baits.

Sight fish for small LMB and have no mercy tossing them on the bank. Light line, keep a low profile on the shore and spend 1/2 hr to an hour every other day for a month. I'd bet that a person can whittle down the population pretty good if they are adept at light line fishing.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
Originally Posted By: Tbar
FWIW......I have healthy populations of both BCP and LMB and still have an over population of small bass.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=429404#Post429404

I also have an abundance of YOY bass 7-9" now. The bass have gotten ahead of the spawn of CNBG. I'm sure the crappie have also taken a toll on the forage supply. Some of the bass about 1-1/2-3 lbs are skinny telling me that the forage supply is not present. The 6-10" bass are consuming most of the YOY CNBG before they get large enough to feed the larger bass. I'm leaning towards removing the small bass to give CNBG a little jump. I have no pond weeds yet, but have about an acre of flooded timber and brush that is so thick that you can't get in to fish it.(ducks love it)

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
My thanks goes out to everyone that posted here. My plans are still emerging here. A learning process For Shure. And lots of good information here. I really like bouncing things around. Here is where I am with this. Pond heavily stocked with CNBG and RES. Pond had at least thousand Tp that are now dying.(took pressure off the cnbg and res) Tp produce a lot of forage for the feeding the lmb Pond also has some crawfish up to 5". Thread fin shad(10,000) originally but have no idea how many are there today. Pond forage reduced due to Tp die off, leaving reduced forage till April. Suggested solution is RBT. There is no dought, where RBT and LMB come together the lmb grow larger. But, as Al pointed out RBT are not cheap and have to be replaced yearly, Tp are replaced yearly also but they reproduce forage like nothing else can. I would recommend Tp to all who can have them. Going back to the trout, if a 3.5 acre pond can hold 80 to 100 XL LMB(based on Basslovers post) how many trout would be necessary for building weight on lmb? Lets say XL lmb eats 2 per week. Per fish for 20 weeks that would be 2,000 trout per year. Life span of a lmb from 6lbs to 15lbs Whoa!! Not Cheap!! Crappie are looking better as I speak. And esshup suggest culling lmb in a clear pond, but in a fertilized pond, our site fishing is reduced to 18" visibility, making site fishing not so easy. In my plans of reducing male lmb, I have come to realize, sight fishing for males only, will not be as easy as I had originally planned. Crappie may be looking better for reducing lmb yoy. Al, I think you are suggesting, where I am at for now. Watch and see for the next few yr's. Thanks for bouncing things around here guys. smile

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 01/04/16 10:08 AM. Reason: sp

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Much good advice and info in this thread.

One aspect to consider is the yearly life cycle of LMB in all of the US except possibly deep south coastal TX/LA and Fla.

A concern raised is that the tilapia die off in winter with the assumption that the LMB will be forage short. However keep in mind that with cold water temps the LMB reduce considerably their food intake. They don't have the metabolism or need for as much to eat by the time the tilapia die off. In addition the LMB have gorged (just before their metabolism decreases)on dying tilapia (surge/binge feeding just before winter water temps is common in LMB). So I would not worry about being forage short in winter under the conditions noted. If there was a doubt then RT or hothouse tilapia would be better than Crappie. In addition crappie because they are more active in cooler water than LMB they are not a good substitute for winter feeding of LMB (crappie are more active than the LMB in cool water and thus able to escape LMB predation better). Another substitute is pelleted feeding of large pellets for LMB.

We are talking LMB biology/bioenergetics ( food - energy used = growth). Its not just food but also the amount of energy used to catch/consume the food that results in growth or weight loss if a negative balance. That leads to an aspect of the California LMB growth noted that most don't know about. Its not just the feeding of RT in the CA lakes that gives the large growth. Its the biological aspect as well. RT need a certain O2 level which is higher than LMB an also a temp range cooler than LMB. The RT seek the best O2/temp zone to occupy. In the CA lakes the lakes stratify and that zone of comfort for the RT gets small while the LMB are not constrained by the factors as they have higher tolerance. In essence the LMB trap the RT in that zone and gorge on them - lots of high energy food in with little energy used equals ample nutrients for LMB growth.

Last edited by ewest; 01/04/16 11:33 AM.















Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Tracy, good for you. You have posted before about a brood pond, and B Cody referenced that as well on this thread. IMO, that's the best option, and remember, you can growout anything that fits your particular scenario at any given time. If you need more CNBG, grow them out to the size you're targeting. If you want TSF or anything else, grow them out the same way.

B Cody also referred Bruce Condello's LMB in his post. I've been lucky enough to witness his results IRL, and his ability to make XL LMB "location friendly" for lack of a better term. I won't go into his particular methods, because that's his option, but I tried what I learned in NE, and it sure helps keep XL LMB resident to a particular area. Trout could benefit those larger resident LMB, and that's the size class you're targeting for extra calories anyway.

On a pond your size, I think trout would really benefit you in a year or two. At a 10 to 1 conversion rate, RBT would cost $100 to add one pound to a LMB. If your LMB are close to your target weight, then that dollar amount is really cheap IMO. If you're feeding all your LMB, then that number could really get expensive, and spread the benefits of trout to LMB that may not make the final cut anyway.

IMO, you've done everything correctly so far, so I would stay the course until your particular situation changes, or your LMB are large enough to specifically target for increased forage. At that point, feed them until they waddle in the water. I bet that point gets here pretty quickly for you.

Just my 2 cents.


AL

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
With a brood pond much is doable. I wonder if anyone has purchased a bunch of RT yoy and put them in a brood pond to be grownout and used as supplemental LMB forage? A plus would be fly fishing for them as they reach 10 inches. You would need good water quality.
















Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
With stocking RBT, remember that you don't have to stock RBT to feed all the LMB in the pond, just the ones that you want to grow to trophy status. i.e. if you have 10# LMB that you want to get larger, don't stock 4" RBT, stock 10"-12" RBT.

I like the brood pond idea. I think it would help you all year long.

Talk to Todd and see if he can get you some 4"-6" RBT. They will be less expensive than larger ones. Stock them in the brood pond as soon as temps allow in the fall, and feed 'em as much as they will eat daily. They will most likely double in size in a few months (or sooner), THEN stock them in the big pond.

In my pond, I had 2# RBT go to 6#-7# in 8 months, and that was only feeding slightly less than 50# of food per month to all the fish in the pond. I had stocked 100# of RBT that year in the pond.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Originally Posted By: ewest
With a brood pond much is doable. I wonder if anyone has purchased a bunch of RT yoy and put them in a brood pond to be grownout and used as supplemental LMB forage? A plus would be fly fishing for them as they reach 10 inches. You would need good water quality.

Eric, I've been researching this very thing for next winter. This whole RBT as seasonal LMB forage deal intrigues me. There appears to be no downside other than money, and the upside could be tremendous. I think it's worth the risk.


AL

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Growing numerous big bass for your pleasure is not a cheap endeavor because you are maintaining an unbalanced community and basically "pushing" against the normal, natural progression for the fishery i.e. a higher than normal number of large predators per acre, maintaining excessive forage, and reducing unwanted competition (subpar bass). Each trophy bass is highly valuable due to the time and inputs necessary to get to a large bass status, and especially true the bigger the bass gets. To accomplish this with regularity, dependably, and at high densities per acre expect to spend quite a bite of money in several departments. This is why examples of this success are few and are rarities, and without constant vigilance the fishery declines.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/04/16 04:03 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
I hear you Bill ! There is a lot of money and effort chasing monster LMB.
















Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Using some 3"-4" with 4"-6" trout as forage pond trout will be cheaper, and feasible. One should be able to raise them to double or triple their size in 10 weeks providing a variety of larger trout for several size classes of big bass.

If you try the crappie and they are actively recruiting juvenile crappie or even bluegill, you may have to figure out how to harvest significant numbers of them (angling-seining-trapping) to supplementally feed the big bass with vulnerable, in pond grown, manually stressed, forage fish. Manually capture, stress selected individuals released into the pond as easy capture food items. A big bass may not routinely make the effort to catch healthy 7"-8" crappie but would aggressively eat a wounded (stressed, vulnerable) larger fish. We see this behavior when the tilapia are dying, stressed from cold temperatures. Numerous larger YOY tilapia remain uneaten until the cold temps stress them and making them easy catch meals. As an example, I had a 15" walleye die from choking this fall after capturing a 5" cold stressed tilapia that was not eaten during warmer water temps.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/04/16 05:09 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 721
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 721
Originally Posted By: esshup
Since crappie spawn once per year in a pond, what happens to your forage base for that year if the weather is such that they don't pull off a successful spawn? BG spawn multiple times per year, so having a failed spawn for one month isn't that big of a deal.


Ditto
Put in my BCP on 4-12-13 at 3.5" in a 3AC pond and do not believe they have had a successful spawn yet. No signal digit length Crappie have been caught in along time. I do not even have a LMB in the pond. Other fish were stocked in 2012 before the BCP.
1. I do however have a fine crop of CC raising and eating everything in site.
2. The CNBG are a little over populated, but keep the kiddies are happy catching them and I have a way to use them.
3. The Gams have survived very well without small LMB there to eat them up in the shallows.

Understand I have designed my pond so I can drain and restart with very little issue. At present the BCP & CC are fat. The Gams are plentiful. The original CNBG are very nice and the YOY CNBG are over populated at current. I will seine a lot of the YOY CNBG out in the next couple months and deliver to the LMB heavy pond for a prespawn snack attack.

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
.... ...... stress selected individuals released into the pond as easy capture food items. .....


How do you "stress" the fish before release? Tail or fin clip?


[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,284
Likes: 288
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Growing numerous big bass for your pleasure is not a cheap endeavor because you are maintaining an unbalanced community and basically "pushing" against the normal, natural progression for the fishery i.e. a higher than normal number of large predators per acre, maintaining excessive forage, and reducing unwanted competition (subpar bass). Each trophy bass is highly valuable due to the time and inputs necessary to get to a large bass status, and especially true the bigger the bass gets. To accomplish this with regularity, dependably, and at high densities per acre expect to spend quite a bite of money in several departments. This is why examples of this success are few and are rarities, and without constant vigilance the fishery declines.

Absolutely true, and many thanks to you, Scott, and Eric for being active on this forage/XL LMB thread.


AL

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 721
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 721
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
.... ...... stress selected individuals released into the pond as easy capture food items. .....


How do you "stress" the fish before release? Tail or fin clip?


I use 2 methods for stressing prey for easy catch here. It makes it easier for healthy fish released simultaneously to survive.

1. In cooler weather I simply sling the fish out with a crab dip net to stun them when they hit the water for a short instant stress / shock.

2. In warm weather I will use water temp cooling to put them in a slower moving situation before releasing them. Makes them a lot easier for the LMB to catch as the multiple temp changes basically shocked the Prey.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
FYI

Population Dynamics of White Crappie Occurring in a Small Georgia Impoundment Stocked with Female-only Largemouth Bass
Authors
Timothy F. Bonvechio
Brandon W. Baker
Bryant R. Bowen

Year

Journal of the Southeastern Associated Fish and Wildlife Agencies 2:93–100

Pages
93 - 100
Abstract
Crappies (Pomoxis spp.) are popular sportfish, but can be difficult to manage due to erratic recruitment and variable growth. In this study, we document the population dynamics of a white crappie (P. annularis) population in a small impoundment characterized by low predator density and abundant populations of several forage species. White crappies (n=301) were collected by electrofishing in October 2012. Relative abundance as indexed by electrofishing catch per unit effort of crappie was high (103.3 fish h-1 ± 18.7 SD). A sub-sample was aged (n = 153) and growth was described by a von Bertalanffy growth curve as total length (TL) = 379.6 (1-e -0.341[age + 0.769]). Growth was considered medium to fast with crappie reaching 254 mm TL in 2.5 yrs. Mean TL of age-2 crappie was 231 mm TL, but lengths ranged from 85 to 365 mm TL. The age distribution revealed that age-2 fish comprised 93% of the population and several year-classes were completely absent from the age distribution. Aging revealed that both stunting and rapid growth were apparent in the same year-class. Crappie populations stocked in a female-only bass fishery can exhibit a high dispersion of lengths within age- classes, which can be a challenge to characterize with traditional population dynamic assessment tools. Future research and management efforts in this small impoundment should be allocated towards a creel survey that assesses angler exploitation and age demographics of the catch, as well as dietary preferences of the white crappie.

Last edited by esshup; 01/05/16 08:14 AM. Reason: Highlighted 1 sentence















Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Thanks again guys, a pond for growing XL lmb is a money disposal project for sure. Requires outside the norm. Normal is Boring smile

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
B
Offline
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
Tracy -

I am a believer in that you can grow XL LMB cheaply. Bluegill and shiners are cheap (at least around here). And bluegill are the rodents of the water world as far as I'm concerned - they live to breed, breed again, and breed some more. So if you establish a crapton of bluegills for your LMB that is an excellent source for growth. I don't know about shiner breeding, I only know how affordable they are to purchase, acclimate, and set free to be munched upon by the LMB.


The pond that I referred to earlier those LMBs were fed shiners. Morning, noon and evening. Shiners came out the pipe from the bait shop to the pond. The LMBs knew that sound of the water coming through the pipe and they would make a beeline right for that. And then the water would boil as the bass just gulped them down as they floated on the surface. You couldn't keep your lines baited fast enough. Three rods all with dead shiners on them and the lines tight going out with 5 lb and up bass. My personal best of almost 9 lbs was caught on a dead shiner I slapped on a hook and dropped 3 feet from shore.


But here is something to consider - if your forage base is such that the LMBs are hogs, the catch-ability ratio may be low(er). If the bass can eat that forage anytime they want, what is their incentive to hit anything else? The hog pen I have referenced - those bass rarely hit anything other than a live or dead shiner. I would toss in lure after lure into the boil and nothing. I could snag a bass but not hook one. But put a shiner on and bam within seconds there's a bass.

So that may be something to consider?

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
basslover says: ""Bluegill and shiners are cheap (at least around here).""

Cheap is a relative term. Cheap for one person may be pretty high for another on a low budget or 'thin wallet'. For fun let's crunch some numbers. Just what are some costs of adult shiners or 4"-5" BG around the US? From what I know about prices around me, GS are costing around $40-$45 per pound. Some areas can get large shiners for less. With 4"-5"ers you get about 30-45 individuals per pound retail (1.00-1.30ea). I don't really know what cheap shiners cost. But most pond owners will pay close to my estimated dollars for a gallon of large shiners. What are the bulk rates for adult shiners? I see in some areas of the country you can get shiners for $10/lb. Yey!
BG at 4"-5" are about 50 -65 cents ea up to $1.50 each retail (13-20/lb) from my local fish farms. Note Mean book reference weights were used for my calculations.

Let's assume the add-stock forage is utilized primarily by biggest bass at 4 lbs per pound of added weight gain. The remaining 5-6 lbs of forage used to gain that pound was grown in the pond with the bass. Let's assume our example trophy bass gains 1.25 lbs each year. 1.25 lbs X 4 lbs = 5 lbs add-stock forage needed for each bass. Thus 5 lb X $40 shiners = $ 200 or as low as $50 (5lbX$10shiners) extra is needed for each trophy bass when it is using 4 lbs of added forage to keep growing at a trophy class rate. On the low side if only 1.5 lbs of add stock forage/yr/bass is needed to keep our big bass fat then the cost drops to $15-60/yr for each bass to supplementally feed them to maintain the trophy growth rate. The more big bass become crowded in a pond it is very likely more add-stock forage will be needed to keep all bass fat and growing to add at least 1-2 pounds per year.

Back to my earlier comment: "growing big bass costs money and when bass are big they are very valuable" in terms of years and the amount of forage it took for that LMB or any large predator to get to the big bass status.

In theory a 7 lb bass has in total eaten 60-70 lbs of food to get to that size (8.5-10lbs fish forage/ lb of gain). If its food was all bluegill, at a cost value of an average of $6.5-$10 per pound (Ave $0.50 ea X 13 or 20BG/lb X 60 total lbs consumed/7 lbs). Considering purchased BG as food, the value that the 7 lb bass ate was near $390-$600 (BG$6.50-$10/lb X 60-70 lbs). I think my math is fairly accurate. Comments?

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/08/23 01:57 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
My only comment is by looking at those figures (and I think they are pretty accurate except Shiners are closer to $10-$15 per pound here) is that having a forage pond where you can grow and move 100-500 (or more) pounds of forage fish to the big pond per year looks more cost effective than before.

Now think about what Bill said about the cost of food per LMB. Multiply that by the number of trophy LMB in the pond and what numbers do you come up with?

Then add in the other "not trophy" LMB in the pond that also need forage food and the numbers are pretty staggering.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
I my analysis the numbers look much better if you can structure the stockings to the growout pond as small fish and let them grow and then move. Its about the harnessing of the productivity of the growout pond. Also have to factor in pelleted feeding costs if applicable.
















Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Next question is - what is the maximum size that we can grow LMbass using mainly a pellet diet of large 0.5"-1" pellets after the bass reach 16"-17"? Any good data on this topic?????.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/05/16 04:27 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Bill, my only data is LMB eating AM600. 18 3/4" and right at 6 pounds. I've seen her in the pond, but haven't caught her since. That fish was caught in 2014.

They turn their noses up at AM LMB pellets.

I imagine she's thinned down some as I've been feeding Optimal this past year and the larger LMB don't like the small pellet size.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Add on: If we can buy 4"-5" BG at $0.50 ea at 13 per pound then 0.50X13 = $6.50 X 60 to 70 lbs consumed the cost is $390.00 to $455.00 for a 7 lb bass. This does not account for the time it took that bass to reach 7lbs. What is several years of time worth?. Now we know that when a fish kill happens in a pond with big bass the owner feels "ill" or sad.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/05/16 04:42 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
I wonder if you could trim that investment down some by timing the stocking of the LMB. For example...stock a pond with forage, say BG, crawfish and GSH (or whatever is best in your area), let that forage grow and populate the pond to capacity over a couple of years (do not feed them) and then stock 1 to 2 pound female LMB ($10/lb here). Would you get some "free" pounds on those bass before you needed to think about supplementing the forage?

Edit: The $10/lb price was 2015 for 10+ inch to 2 lb LMB at the fish farm I use. All female may be higher and I don't know whether my fish farm would be willing to sort them.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/05/16 06:34 PM. Reason: Clarification

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
B
Offline
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
basslover says: ""Bluegill and shiners are cheap (at least around here).""

Cheap is a relative term. Cheap for one person may be pretty high for another on a low budget or “thin wallet”. For fun let's crunch some numbers. Just what are some costs of adult shiners or 4”-5” BG around the US? From what I know about prices around me, GS are costing around $40-$45 per pound. Some areas can get large shiners for less. With 4"-5"ers you get about 30-45 individuals per pound retail (1.00-1.30ea). I don’t really know what cheap shiners cost. But most pond owners will pay close to my estimated dollars for a gallon of large shiners. What are the bulk rates for adult shiners? I see in some areas of the country you can get shiners for $10/lb. Yey!
BG at 4"-5" are about 50 -65 cents ea up to $1.50 each retail (13-20/lb) from my local fish farms. Note Mean book reference weights were used for my calculations.


I'm factoring that the established pond has plenty of forage as it is, and supplemental feeding is happening as needed / wanted. I'm also factoring that the initial stocking ratio was 20 to 1 or higher, and that the forage were stocked first in each size range to build the forage base.

So from that initial stocking forward there is a large number of forage in the pond. In other words, the pond owner designed his / her pond to grow large LMB. As such, the financial cost for the forage is the original stocking price, plus any supplemental offerings.


Originally Posted By: Bill Cody

Let’s assume the add-stock forage is utilized primarily by biggest bass at 4 lbs per pound of added weight gain. The remaining 5-6 lbs of forage used to gain that pound was grown in the pond with the bass. Let’s assume our example trophy bass gains 1.25 lbs each year. 1.25 lbs X 4 lbs = 5 lbs add-stock forage needed for each bass. Thus 5 lb X $40 shiners = $ 200 or as low as $50 (5lbX$10shiners) extra is needed for each trophy bass when it is using 4 lbs of added forage to keep growing at a trophy class rate. On the low side if only 1.5 lbs of add stock forage/yr/bass is needed to keep our big bass fat then the cost drops to $15-60/yr for each bass to supplementally feed them to maintain the trophy growth rate. The more big bass become crowded in a pond it is very likely more add-stock forage will be needed to keep all bass fat and growing to add at least 1-2 pounds per year.

Back to my earlier comment: “growing big bass costs money and when bass are big they are very valuable” in terms of years and the amount of forage it took for that LMB or any large predator to get to the big bass status.

In theory a 7 lb bass has in total eaten 60-70 lbs of food to get to that size (8.5-10lbs fish forage/ lb of gain). If its food was all bluegill, at a cost value of an average of $6.5-$10 per pound (Ave $0.50 ea X 13 or 20BG/lb X 60 total lbs consumed/7 lbs). Considering purchased BG as food, the value that the 7 lb bass ate was near $390-$600 (BG$6.50-$10/lb X 60-70 lbs). I think my math is fairly accurate. Comments?




See my note above about the initial stocking of forage fish. Bluegills breed like rodents (at least here in GA). So if the initial stocking had bluegills in various sizes and maturity there will be the continued breeding of 2-4 times per year upping the forage count in each of the sizes.


I also want to question if the idea that a LMB needs to eat 10 lbs of food to gain 1 lb still holds true? Was that number determined by what or which forage fish, in what geographic area of the USA, and what is known about the body of water (structure, cover, water quality, fishing pressure, etc.)? Which strain of LMB - northern, southern, F1, Tiger, CBLMB, etc.?

Perhaps the notion of 10 lb to gain 1 lb is long in the tooth, or doesn't apply to a body of water with trout as forage, etc.

Again, stressing these are all just thoughts and questions, not ruffling feathers.

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
I have corresponded with our former state fisheries biologist, and he says sometimes golden shiners carry an ovarian parasite that can affect other species, so he doesn't recommend stocking adult shiners.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
ewest may have some specific information / research on this topic. I am pretty sure that the conversion efficiency of 10 lbs of forage to grow 1 pound of predator has its basis from the standard energy pyramid of numbers where energy is lost as it moves up the food chain. There are no doubt lots of information on this concept. The quality (energy amount nutrient quality) of the food eaten may skew the numbers somewhat but not a lot. I suspect the 10:1 ratio can get to 8:1 but not much more due to the physiology of biological organisms.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
I respectfully submit for consideration, that the cost numbers provided are applicable only if LMB are fed purchased forage for nearly 100% of their feeding. I agree with Basslover, a pond well stocked with good reproducing forage reduces the purchased forage requirement and dollar number per pound of predator growth significantly. IMHO purchased forage should be supplemental not primary. A pond with heavy forage density prior to stocking LMB may not even require supplemental stocking for some time, if at all, depending on whether the number of LMB stocked are at a rate to thrive or at a rate that exceeds the ponds capacity to produce abundant forage.

I agree with Bill C's point as well - IMHO If you stock a predator at a rate beyond the capacity of the pond to provide abundant forage, then be prepared to pay big bucks for the results you want.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/06/16 08:06 AM. Reason: Clarification

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
I can say from my experience. In my attempt to grow XL lmb, I needed genetics (Overtons CBLMB in my case) and then environment (pond water with micro organisms, fertilized ) along with a longer growing season. And forage (BG) which may be the only forage necessary. RES to keep the pond healthy. Whoops, forgot FHM's. As in other things in life's hobbies, I have learned there is no cheap hobby. Tennis is the cheapest hobby I have found and the scenery at a tennis court can be quite nice smile I can no longer play tennis, I kind of of miss all that exercise and Scenery smile Nice exercised female with short tennis skirts. Like I said I miss those tennis matches.

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
One cost effective idea is to move (or purchase) a few adult BG (3 females for each male) to the growout pond a month before the normal first BG spawn of the year. They should be the best conditioned BG you can get.
















Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Regardless of whether the forage was purchased or grown in the pond it still has value just as the value of the trophy bass that grew from that forage. One could take the forage grown in a pond and use it for trade of sell it for $$$.

As we all know one of the biggest problems of relying on in pond forage to maintain their density is that LMB are constantly increasing their need for more forage due to recruitment and increased growth which is why many waters are out of balance or not achieving goals. Growing several trophy class bass per acre in the smaller pond situation to the trophy class category (8-11lbs) and do it long term years & year, IMO will almost always require add stock forage. There are no doubt exceptions, but these exceptions are as rare as those 10-12 lb bass.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/06/16 08:16 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
That is true if you can find willing buyers and sellers. My comments are based on out of pocket costs.
















Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
True but that forage grown in the pond or the crop in the field, or animals grown on the farm all have some sort of value be it for a buyer, seller, consumer or angler. The forage grown in the pond will save a pondmeister money if he does not have to buy forage fish, a money savings to achieve a goal. True it was grown in house but my point is it still has some sort of value depending on its use. Does not farming or gardening produce value? Even if it is just for hobby and vegetables are unharvested and laid to waste the gardening was hopefully therapeutic and reduced stress to the hobbiest. It is all theoretical.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/06/16 08:17 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Interesting discussion...

A scenario....A cricket along side your pond in the grass is startled and jumps into the water. One of your BG grabs it and gets his meal for the day. Crickets sell for 10 cents at the local pet store. If you are calculating the cost of raising the BG do you add 10 cents?

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/06/16 08:52 PM. Reason: Typo

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
B
Offline
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
I know the financial cost for my stocking of CNBG and RES, my supplemental stockings of trout and shiners, and my stocking of LMB.

The CNBG and RES were dirt cheap (from my perspective on price). Without looking up what I paid I _think_ I paid around $400. I have not stocked anymore RES or CNBG since my initial stocking. I have identified 8 spawns of CNBG since my initial stocking in May of 2014. I stocked adult size, medium size, and babies. I see lots of these 3 sizes when I walk the banks, and of course when I toss in food (be it pellets or live food).

The supplemental offerings of shiners has been quite limited in both quantity and frequency. Most often associated with my wanting to shoot some video of the bass going after the shiners. I have one video where a LMB has a CNBG and a shiner dropped in front of it, and the LMB bee lines for the shiner. Another video was a shiner and a trout and the LMB lunges for the trout. With my LMB in my pond the trout are the preferred forage hands down.

The supplemental offerings of trout also has been limited in both quantity and frequency. Due to cost and availability. But I also stock medium size trout, larger than the shiners I drop in.

A friend has begun breeding tilapia and raising them to various sizes before stocking them in his pond. This seems to be a great return on his investment in feeding his bass.

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,930
Likes: 2
R
RER Offline
Offline
R
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,930
Likes: 2
I supplement feed my pond buy cast netting finger mullet from time to time. I could not imagine buying trout at the rate I have been releasing Mullet. I would go broke.

If I was to buy trout I think I would be eating them not the fish.


Goofing off is a slang term for engaging in recreation or an idle pastime while obligations of work or society are neglected........... Wikipedia
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Can a 6" crappie be sexed like Shorty sexes his RES? Did I miss the answer here, and is it necessary to sex them just prior to their spawn? I wonder about a single sexed crappie reducing the chances of over crowded lmb through feeding on lmb fry, along with the 6" or larger crappie feeding some of the XL lmb. What if, when sexing the crappie for single sexing and just one opposite sex was introduced? In Bill D's post, I think he ask about stocking rates being a factor, so if a single sexed had an accidental spawner, do you think the lmb might reduce the crappie fry to where they would not over crowd an lmb pond? It depends?? I am not saying I will take this path but I find it interesting when looking at reducing overcrowding of lmb or crappie. While producing forage for XL lmb and maybe forage to me or my family and friends. Maybe something to look at as the lmb grow larger and they eat the forage fish count down.

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Originally Posted By: BobbyRice
I supplement feed my pond buy cast netting finger mullet from time to time. I could not imagine buying trout at the rate I have been releasing Mullet. I would go broke.

If I was to buy trout I think I would be eating them not the fish.

Exactly how I feel when looking at 2,000 trout per yr. lol

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Basslover, Tp produce a lot of babies for feeding the lmb, way more than BG. And are pretty cheap if stocking just a few breeders. The breeders would have to be of a size the lmb could not eat.

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
Tracy I put 300 4-5" crappy in with1000 3" CNBG and the crappie spawned that first season at 4-5". With whatever number and size bucket stocked bass were added I still have a over abundance of bass with no telling how many crappie. Since most of the small bass run the banks looking for gambusias not so sure that they are in the same food zone as the crappie. And from what I have caught bass wise they range from 6-7 lbs on down to 6-8" long. Hmm

Last edited by Pat Williamson; 01/07/16 10:13 AM.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
The next PB mag will have an article on an attempt to use crappie in a small (100 acre) lake with low stocking of female only LMB. The lake also has BG , RES ,TS, GS ,CC and LCS.

One of the things noted was the failure to properly sex the few LMB stocked. Point is it is very hard to be 100% certain when stocking single sex pond fish. Mistakes are made even by trained FS.
















Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
B
Offline
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
Originally Posted By: BobbyRice
I supplement feed my pond buy cast netting finger mullet from time to time. I could not imagine buying trout at the rate I have been releasing Mullet. I would go broke.

If I was to buy trout I think I would be eating them not the fish.


How much are trout fingerlings there?

Here they are $.45 for 3" fingerling. If you buy in volume they are cheaper of course. So a dozen will run $7.20 and 100 around $50.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
From my article of single sex crappie stocking in Pond Boss magazine, Crappie both white and black are much harder to accurately sex using visual features compared to bluegill. The ONLY way for my pond or anyone else's pond that I would try to sex crappie is to either see white milt oozing from the males and also use a capillary probe for actually seeing eggs of the females. Cecil Baird has previously discussed the method for using the capillary tube probing technique. Otherwise you are guessing & assuming and almost everyone knows how reliable that is; poor at best.

Reference.
Pond Boss Magazine Mar-Apr 2013. CRAPPIE AS A BONUS, PLUS GROWTH RATES AND SEXING. Bill Cody explores single sex crappies for small ponds. How to have some big crappies without problems of reproduction, how to recognize males and females, choosing white versus blacks and numerous facts about crappie biology to help you grow big crappies.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/07/16 04:41 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Originally Posted By: TGW1
Can a 6" crappie be sexed like Shorty sexes his RES? Did I miss the answer here, and is it necessary to sex them just prior to their spawn?
Tracy


Even if it was possible, I still wouldn't take the chance. I might take the chance if I wasn't worried about screwing up the pond and had plenty of $$ and time to push the reset button if I did.

But then, if there was plenty of $$ and time, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, now would we?

That is if your goals of a trophy LMB pond is still the goal. If those goals have changed, then I retract my statement.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
January, February Pond Boss Magazine, Science & the Cutting Edge tells of the BG and lmb and TFS situations in a ponds first few years. This artical tells of how things went in a couple of studies of BG/LMB ponds. The story tells what happens to the BG/lmb populations within the first yr and what might follow in the next few years. It tells of why I was interested in asking my crappie question of "will crappie feed my lmb when pond forage is reduced". If I use their pond study numbers of Bg and lmb and adjust to my pond, it tell me, this past year my lmb have eaten somewhere around 100 to 112 lbs of bg per acre or about 350 lbs of CNBG in the last 7 to 8 months. And might reduce BG to unsustainable densities in just a few years. Maybe in 3 yrs or so. This article help me to understand my BG/lmb/TFS situation in my pond. And reinforced my desire to keep the forage levels up for growing XL LMB. Thanks Eric West and by the way, we also have the same last name but I am sure you would not claim to have any family ties here smile

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Thanks Tracy. No West relatives in TX so far as I know.
















Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
Tracy I'm no expert and just trying to envision this in my own mind. But it seems to me if trophy size LMB is your goal, reducing the LMB load to let the CNBG thrive kills two birds with one stone so to speak. It reduces biomass in the pond giving more room for both more CNBG and large LMB to continue to grow. And it reduces competition among the LMB.

Going the other way by trying to increase forage production with the crappie, assuming the pond at some point reaches carrying capacity, it looks like to me it might hurt rather than help. That carrying capacity can only be so many pounds of fish. It looks like to be reducing pounds of smaller bass rather than adding another potential predator..............


Ahhhhh heck. What do I know? Mostly nothing. Just thinking out loud.

Last edited by snrub; 01/11/16 05:08 PM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
snrub makes some very good points that I agree with. To grow your big bass you will need to keep bass density low and forage abundant. Your biggest challenge as I see it will be to keep the bass numbers reduced, lower than most ponds, so they always have plenty of high density EASY to catch larger sized prey. Like DD1 often says, the bass should be able to just open their mouth and fish are there to eat. Doing that will be a big challenge. LMB are always wanting to overpopulate that keeps available prey to less than optimum for best growth. Skewing the fishery to few bass/ac and high density prey will be your goal. If it were my pond, I would resort to regularly catching BG and hand feeding them to the biggest bass so they did not have to work hard for their food - eating daily, getting fat with little excercise.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/11/16 05:44 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
I believe the crappie will control the bass and over populate. They spawn earlier than bass and eat the bass fry. Thus, I BELIEVE, that you will wind up with a bunch of runt crappie and some larger bass. But, every pond can be different.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Thanks Dave, you may be on to something. Several have suggested a forage pond to grow fish (Bg, Tp, etc) for feeding the XL LMB. But Dave brings me to think about a pond overstocked with crappie runts. And these are feeding on the lmb fry and that reduces the possibility of a pond being over crowded with 10 or 12" lmb. So now we have a pond with XL lmb feeding on BG and Crappie but little to no reproduction of lmb. So to improve the numbers of XL LMB you (me) could grow out lmb to 14" in the forage pond and then release them to the bigger pond that is overstocked with crappie in the 4 to 5" size. What say you, just thinking out loud. Any takers here on that situation?

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 01/12/16 08:38 AM. Reason: sp

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Tracy:

I believe you have a great chance to achieve your goals of having a trophy LMB fishery. Just don't get impatient. I also believe you have one of the best regional biologists that is in your area, that is willing to sell you anything you want or need to help you achieve your goal -Todd Overton. (Providing you listen to him that is.)

What does he have to say about the Crappie for your pond and for your goals?

If I was in your shoes, and it was my pond, there's no way in hell would I be even remotely thinking about stocking crappies. For the amount of time and money that you already have invested in it, I wouldn't armchair quarterback it.

That's like opening Pandora's box, and the cost in both money and time to reverse is would be too great of a risk in my opinion.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Tracy - this topic basically resorts to just how strong is your goal for growing large trophy bass? What is the amount of risk you accept if crappie cause problems and bass do not grow to trophy class?. If it were my pond, I would not add any crappie and if I did, NOT until the bass are large 3 to 4 lbs so they can better consume crappie that get to be 4.5"-6".

One of the big problems of your plan relates back to what DD1 mentioned is the crappie are liable to eat too many bass fry to the point bass are not recruiting enough young bass to eventually control the YOY crappie. If the pond has few bass that are just primarily larger ones growing toward trophy, the predation pressure on the YOY crappie may not be enough to keep the numerous small crappie from consuming too many bass fry. Habitat will play a big role here.

IMO getting the correct fish balance in the pond to meet your main goal of trophy bass will be doubly more difficult if you add crappie. There are other very good ways to provide excess forage for the bass other than crappie. IMO if you really want both crappie and XL trophy bass, build another pond just for producing the crappie or be prepared to modify your goal of trophy bass to a "regular" pond with the correct population of bass to produce harvestable crappie. Most ponds with big crappie have numerous bass sometimes thin bodied that limit crappie recruitment that in turn allows remaining crappie to grow well.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/12/16 04:35 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Originally Posted By: TGW1
January, February Pond Boss Magazine, Science & the Cutting Edge tells of the BG and lmb and TFS situations in a ponds first few years.
Tracy



Tracy nice to know someone reads the articles. The article looks at several factors wrt those waters. One key point was that adding TFS did not seem to help with large (trophy)LMB but did help with mid-size and smaller LMB. This should help as it relates to this thread.

"A surprise was that the stocking (of TFS) did not do much for the top end large bass. After threadfin shad stocking, weight and condition of smaller and intermediate largemouth bass increased. However, these values did not increase for fish over 380 mm (15 inch) total length when threadfin shad were present in the ponds. Possibly, these larger fish found sufficient larger bluegill to prey upon as gape width, hence prey size, increases with larger fish. One previous author noted that intermediate (250–380 mm, 10 -15 inch total length) largemouth bass were more often found offshore feeding on threadfin shad, while larger fish were solitary ambush feeders found closer to shore."
















Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Originally Posted By: ewest
Tracy nice to know someone reads the articles. The article looks at several factors wrt those waters. One key point was that adding TFS did not seem to help with large (trophy)LMB but did help with mid-size and smaller LMB. This should help as it relates to this thread.

"A surprise was that the stocking (of TFS) did not do much for the top end large bass. After threadfin shad stocking, weight and condition of smaller and intermediate largemouth bass increased. However, these values did not increase for fish over 380 mm (15 inch) total length when threadfin shad were present in the ponds. Possibly, these larger fish found sufficient larger bluegill to prey upon as gape width, hence prey size, increases with larger fish. One previous author noted that intermediate (250–380 mm, 10 -15 inch total length) largemouth bass were more often found offshore feeding on threadfin shad, while larger fish were solitary ambush feeders found closer to shore."


Eric, do you think that is due to the size of the TFS, and not being optimal sized for the larger LMB in the pond? i.e. Expending too much energy for each meal, resulting in not as many calories going to growing the fish, as the calories were going to sustaining the fish day to day in their pursuit of more food?

---------------------------------------------
by ewest -
Scott yes that is a logical conclusion . If the TFS start to be eaten in significant amounts by the big LMB you likely have a forage problem of not enough big forage for the big LMB. If your goal is trophy LMB then that may be , absent a TFS kill (where no energy expense is required), a leading indicator of an ensuing problem.

Last edited by ewest; 01/13/16 11:17 AM.

www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
Tracy, I remember Lusk talking about a 60 or so acre private lake in NE Texas. Bass were all but nonexistent but it was loaded with small crappie. Bob did a shock job and found 4 inch crappie that were 7 years old. The owners didn't want to nuke it so they added HSB to bring it back into balance. Or so my memory of the story goes.

Sooner or later the bigger bass die and you're left with a mess with crappie. However, for a time it might just work.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 01/12/16 06:31 PM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Tracy, I remember Lusk talking about a 60 or so acre private lake in NE Texas. Bass were all but nonexistent but it was loaded with small crappie. Bob did a shock job and found 4 inch crappie that were 7 years old. The owners didn't want to nuke it so they added HSB to bring it back into balance. Or so my memory of the story goes.

Sooner or later the bigger bass die and you're left with a mess with crappie. However, for a time it might just work.


Dave:

Lets think this through for a minute. O.K. He stocks crappies in the pond, wanting to get them to stunt (so to speak) to be of the size for the LMB to eat, and for them to control the LMB YOY in subsequent years. What are the stocking numbers that he should stock, and how many years will it take for them to populate enough to get them to stunt?

What size do the crappie have to be to avoid predation at time of stocking? Are they available, and at what price?

If there's enough crappie in there to stunt, and eat the LMB YOY, will there be any other fish species that survive their first year of life to grow large enough to be of the correct size for the LMB to continue to grow at the rate needed to reach trophy status before they (the LMB) die of old age? Will enough of the forage fish (quantity wise) survive for that?

Then, like you said, how do you keep a standing crop of "soon to be trophy" LMB waiting in the wings (so to speak) for when this current crop starts to die of old age? Will there be enough forage fish in the pond, of the correct size, to get them there? Or will not enough YOY fish survive to grow to 2-3 year old fish to be large enough to be food for the trophy LMB?

Then what happens if the crappie fail to pull off a spawn that year?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
We also have to remember he plans to stock CNBG in the pond with LMB and crappie. What if the crappie consume more YOY BG than YOY fingerling bass? BG fry may be easier to catch and eat for the crappie. Will average size of the most abundant crappie change what small fish are most frequently consumed? Lots of variables that can change as this stocking plan and eventual fishery develops over a 10 yr period. One should also have a plan of how to monitor pretty closely what sizes and densities of each specie is present so harvest removal estimated can be fairly accurately determined and not just guessed. IMO a 3.5 ac pond is a little on the large side to be experimenting with an unknown or unproven stocking combination unless one is prepared to renovate the fishery after 6-10 years if the goal is not achieved. Theoretical results are one thing; actual results can be quite a bit different.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/12/16 08:16 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
Bill, the key word and question is variables. And that can be an huge unknown to me. The word stochastic comes to mind.

Scott, the crappie stocking question would be the LMB situation at a given time. And, that is always an unknown.

I have fished one local 25 acre pond with abundant, almost healthy, LMB community with crappie that are under control. Neat place to fish with way too much bottom and top weed growth. The owner wishes it weren't so but won't spend the $ to correct it. I found very few BG forage. So, I figure that it in decent shape for a certain, short lived, time.

I figure that crappie can be a great tool, like gizzard shad, for 3 or 4 years. But, to go any further, it will take a great deal of corrective management.

I believe that crappie can be a great tool to grow huge LMB for a short time. Then, it's time to start over.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 01/12/16 08:33 PM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1


I have fished one local 25 acre pond with abundant, almost healthy, LMB community with crappie that are under control. Neat place to fish with way too much bottom and top weed growth. The owner wishes it weren't so but won't spend the $ to correct it. I found very few BG forage. So, I figure that it in decent shape for a certain, short lived, time.


Dave:

Could you expand on the "abundant, almost healthy" statement?

Keep in mind that Tracy is wanting to stock Crappies for a trophy LMB fishery.

Bill C. That's my concern, it won't be a LMB/Crappie only pond, but that the crappies will not only focus on the LMB YOY, but other fish species at the same time. Basically whatever is in front of them at the time their stomach says "its time to eat". I can't seem to get it across to the fish that they are only supposed to eat certain species and sizes of other fish.

I wouldn't have these concerns if it wasn't for the "Trophy LMB" fishery part.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,026
Likes: 274
Scott, about 90% RW. Or WR.

I guess there just wasn't enough meat on the crappies to make a decent meal. I've also seen it around my area with BG's.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 01/13/16 06:50 AM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Guys, thank you so much for all your comments here. And let me also say Todd Overton has been very helpful in my plan to grow some of his CB LMB. I think he now calls them Lonestar Legacy LMB. And Walt has also been very helpful when he comes to the pond. I have not asked Todd about the crappie and my out of the box thinking. I do not want to appear to be an idiot when asking so many dumb questions smile But here, I can hopefully have a BS sessions with some guys who have great amount of experience. So lets just call it what it is or has been, A BS session, a place to kick things around. After all, it's cold out there @ the pond and the fish are in their lazy time. So, please bare with me, As esshup said, I may be impatient, but Todd Overton has supplied me with what maybe the best genetics out there and if I can push the envelope!! So if you would like to continue this discussion, please do if not, thanks for your contribution.
Bill Cody, Thank you, I would not even consider adding any crappie until the lmb reach the 3 to 4 lb range. They will be there in 2016 if they are not, then I have other problems in the pond. #1 - If the crappie are added to feed higher numbers of XL lmb and crappie eat to many lmb fry and so no reproduction of lmb in the big pond, why worry, I will be adding grown out 14 or 15" lmb from growout pond to big pond. Hopefully keeping a plan together for large numbers of XL lmb, forage provided through BG and Crappie along with seasonal TP not to mention crawfish and TFS.
#2 - By adding 14" lmb from a grow out pond (how many grown out lmb added to big pond?) along with the big pond lmb would reduce crappie reproduction by eating the 4" crappie grown from the crappie spawns.
#3 - TFS feed the 14" lmb but not the XL LMB. Reduced forage to feed XL LMB due to TP seasonal die off. Reduced forage means slow or no growth for XL LMB. Feed CNBG !! Conserned with crappie eating to many CNBG fry !!
#4 - Balanced pond, is there such a thing after its first or second year? One thing I have learned here is weather it is a pond for growing large numbers of YP or large numbers of Trophy LMB the pond must be managed.
Many thoughts come to mind in my continued plan to grow large numbers of XL LMB. esshup has some of the same questions I have. Thanks for the session.

Tracy


Last edited by TGW1; 01/13/16 10:02 AM. Reason: sp

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Good discussion. Guys look for the next cutting edge article. Don't want to give away to much about it right now.

Bill I would bet that the yoy crappie would cause far more yoy BG morts (eat more BG yoy/fry) than the yoy LMB because the crappie will be older at the time and far more numerous than the LMB yoy. I do question how the crappie yoy and LMB yoy will compare wrt gape size and how much difference that would make.
















Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Tracy: WHEW! I'm glad to see that reply. I was worried about you dumping them into the pond early this Spring. I would really, really be interested in seeing what Todd has to say about it.

ewest, I'll try to remember to measure some smaller crappie gape this Spring if I run across any. Measuring LMB gape would be a lot easier. I wonder if we could convince Dwight and The Stick to do it for the different crappie sizes they catch thru the ice this winter?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
How do you measure gape - side to side or up down? I can measure some as I catch them

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Guys I was talking about the gape size on yoy/fry crappie and LMB as they relate to eating yoy/fry BG. Those gapes are way to small to measure.
















Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
T
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
Seems like the original plan to stock only large LMB in a pond full of BG and crappie is a good one. It doesn't matter if the crappie eat all the yoy LMB. The LMB will feast on the BG and crappie that are of a size that suites them, and if super plentiful feed was the only missing ingredient to XL LMB, then the plan should work. If some XL LMB die of old age, so be it. That would also happen in a more traditionally managed pond. The more difficult part, it seems to me, is managing the forage pond in which the stocker LMB will be raised. As long as it produces an adequate supply of proper sized LMB, everything should be a go. If some BG and crappie get too big for the XL LMB to eat, catch a few trophy sized pan fish.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Originally Posted By: ewest
Good discussion. Guys look for the next cutting edge article. Don't want to give away to much about it right now.

Bill I would bet that the yoy crappie would cause far more yoy BG morts (eat more BG yoy/fry) than the yoy LMB because the crappie will be older at the time and far more numerous than the LMB yoy. I do question how the crappie yoy and LMB yoy will compare wrt gape size and how much difference that would make.


Lets see, First spawn in the pond would be crappie, most likely in the latter part of Feb.(in a normal years weather).
2nd spawn would be lmb most likely in March and early April.
3rd spawn would be CNBG most likely in May (with 3 or 4 more spawns)
4th spawn would be Res along with the CNBG.
5th spawn would be Tilapia in June. (spawning continues through the summer and fall)
6th spawn would be TFS in June.
What month would the crawfish spawn? I see lots of craws coming into the picture but not sure how many would make it.
Any comments?


Last edited by TGW1; 01/14/16 08:15 AM. Reason: add on

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
See info and dates below - assumption Harrison Co TX is similar to other locations with same north latitude (Dallas , Shreveport , Jackson , Birmingham )

Crappie Feb.

LMB most likely in March and early April.

CNBG (Res along with the CNBG) most likely in April(with 3 or 4 or 5 more spawns)

Tilapia in June. (spawning continues through the summer and fall)

TFS in June

---------------------------------------------------------

Crappie - Spawning occurs from about 59 degrees Fahrenheit to 68 degrees Fahrenheit ( 15-20 C )

BG - Bluegill start spawn¬ing in late spring at around70 F (21 C) and spawn periodically until early fall, providing a plenti¬ful supply of small forage. In small, east Texas reservoirs, female bluegill spawned an average of five times over the season.

RES - Reported spawning temperatures for redear sunfish vary widely, with several pub¬lications indicating that redear start spawning at slightly cooler tempera¬tures than bluegill (68 to 70 F; 20 to 21 C), while other literature indicates the opposite.

LMB - after the water temperature
has stabilized above 60 F.
Bass normally spawn at temperatures
of 65 to 75F

Tilapia - spawning normally occurs at temperatures greater than 22° C (72° F). Tilapias are mouth-brooders; the female picks up fertilized eggs and incubates them in her mouth. The number of eggs that can be reared (typically 300 to 1,200 per clutch) is limited by the size of the female’s mouth. Thus, although they spawn frequently, relatively few offspring are produced at one time.

TFS - Threadfin shad spawn starting at 67 to 70 F (19 to 21 ºC) and broadcast adhesive eggs over vegetation and woody debris. Prolific spawners, shad mature in less than 1 year and produce large quantities of eggs. The length of the spawning season is vari¬able and spawning can occur over a broad temperature range.

GS - Golden shiners spawn in the spring when water temperatures rise above 68 F (20 C). They quit spawning when temperatures exceed 81 F (27 C). Once spawning
begins, fish will continue to spawn even when temperatures drop below 68 F. Golden shiners spawn frequently, attaching their adhesive eggs to aquatic vegetation or spawning mats.

FH - Water temperatures higher than 64 F (18 C) trigger spawning. Females spawn at frequent intervals, up to several times a week. Once the water warms to 84 F (29 C) or higher, spawning
stops.

Craws – can alternate between sexually active and inactive forms. P. clarkii can spawn year-round in the southern U.S. and females may reproduce more than once a year. The life cycles of both red swamp crawfish and white river crawfish have evolved to allow them to adapt to the cyclical low-water dry conditions and high-water flood conditions common to their natural habitats. Crawfish can burrow for reproduction at any time of the year but do so most often in late spring/early summer in the South. The incubation period is temperature
dependent and it takes about 3 weeks
for eggs to hatch at 74 F.




Last edited by ewest; 01/14/16 11:13 AM.















Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
T
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
Originally Posted By: TGW1
So now we have a pond with XL lmb feeding on BG and Crappie but little to no reproduction of lmb. So to improve the numbers of XL LMB you (me) could grow out lmb to 14" in the forage pond and then release them to the bigger pond that is overstocked with crappie in the 4 to 5" size. What say you, just thinking out loud. Any takers here on that situation?

Tracy

This (XL LMB pond) sounds like an almost foolproof plan to me. The requirements are keeping enough forage in the main pond to sustain the BG and crappie and continually stocking enough 14” LMB to provide the desired trophy fishing. This pond is not designed to ever be in balance. The forage/stocker pond presents the bigger challenge. It will be a more typical BG LMB pond – self sustaining and producing an adequate number of 14” bass. [Hope I figured out how the quote thing works.]

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Originally Posted By: ewest
See info and dates below - assumption Harrison Co TX is similar to other locations with same north latitude (Dallas , Shreveport , Jackson , Birmingham )

Crappie Feb.

LMB most likely in March and early April.

CNBG (Res along with the CNBG) most likely in April(with 3 or 4 or 5 more spawns)

Tilapia in June. (spawning continues through the summer and fall)

TFS in June

---------------------------------------------------------

Crappie - Spawning occurs from about 59 degrees Fahrenheit to 68 degrees Fahrenheit ( 15-20 C )

BG - Bluegill start spawn¬ing in late spring at around70 F (21 C) and spawn periodically until early fall, providing a plenti¬ful supply of small forage. In small, east Texas reservoirs, female bluegill spawned an average of five times over the season.

RES - Reported spawning temperatures for redear sunfish vary widely, with several pub¬lications indicating that redear start spawning at slightly cooler tempera¬tures than bluegill (68 to 70 F; 20 to 21 C), while other literature indicates the opposite.

LMB - after the water temperature
has stabilized above 60 F.
Bass normally spawn at temperatures
of 65 to 75F

Tilapia - spawning normally occurs at temperatures greater than 22° C (72° F). Tilapias are mouth-brooders; the female picks up fertilized eggs and incubates them in her mouth. The number of eggs that can be reared (typically 300 to 1,200 per clutch) is limited by the size of the female’s mouth. Thus, although they spawn frequently, relatively few offspring are produced at one time.

TFS - Threadfin shad spawn starting at 67 to 70 F (19 to 21 ºC) and broadcast adhesive eggs over vegetation and woody debris. Prolific spawners, shad mature in less than 1 year and produce large quantities of eggs. The length of the spawning season is vari¬able and spawning can occur over a broad temperature range.

GS - Golden shiners spawn in the spring when water temperatures rise above 68 F (20 C). They quit spawning when temperatures exceed 81 F (27 C). Once spawning
begins, fish will continue to spawn even when temperatures drop below 68 F. Golden shiners spawn frequently, attaching their adhesive eggs to aquatic vegetation or spawning mats.

FH - Water temperatures higher than 64 F (18 C) trigger spawning. Females spawn at frequent intervals, up to several times a week. Once the water warms to 84 F (29 C) or higher, spawning
stops.

Craws – can alternate between sexually active and inactive forms. P. clarkii can spawn year-round in the southern U.S. and females may reproduce more than once a year. The life cycles of both red swamp crawfish and white river crawfish have evolved to allow them to adapt to the cyclical low-water dry conditions and high-water flood conditions common to their natural habitats. Crawfish can burrow for reproduction at any time of the year but do so most often in late spring/early summer in the South. The incubation period is temperature
dependent and it takes about 3 weeks
for eggs to hatch at 74 F.

Thanks for putting this together. Puts good information close and easy to get to. Is there a way to save things like this for quick reference? My memory is not as good as it once was.

Tracy





Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
turtlemtn, a grow out pond for lmb could be done, look at fireishot " A New CNBG pond" Al shows his lmb in the 14" size being released into his bigger pond. Notice how healthy his lmb is.

ewest, I am looking forward to your upcoming article in the next issue of PBM.

I will wait for awhile with an open mind.

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
T
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
I'm confident that the grow out pond can be done. My point is that the grow out pond is the pond that will require management. The yoy LMB will have to survive and grow to 14”. You don't want something like crappie eating them, but you do want ample forage for them to grow as fast as possible. That's where all the detailed discussion above comes into play. What do you put in the pond for those yoy LMB to eat that won't eat them? I would wonder if removing too many, as in all, the 14” LMB would severely limit their ability to replenish themselves? I'm sure people in the forum can address that question.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Both ponds will require management. The plans will be different . The hard part of management is not the work but is understanding what you are seeing and knowing what to do to match the goal.
















Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
T
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
Part of what makes this project interesting is learning how much effort is required for each pond. My guess is that the XL pond will be the easier of the two.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
If the crappie are kept at reasonable density in the XL LMB pond of 3.5 acre, IMO the crappie will not do much to limit the density of YOY and juvenile LMB. LMB density will still need to be manually reduced. It is likely the adult crappie will not produce good spawns each Spring that can result in sporadic poor crappie recruitment for some years as evidenced by crappie behavior in some of the other member's ponds. Crappie are notorious for unpredictable recruitment. If TGW1 goes ahead with this plan, this discussion and the actual results will be very educational for all those interested in this topic. This topic has been placed in the Common Pond Q&A Archives under Crappie In Ponds - PB Forum View.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/16/16 08:47 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
T
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
As I understand it, in the two pond scenario, it doesn't matter if the crappie eat every one of the yoy bass in the trophy bass pond. The only goals of the XL LMB pond are as many as possible and as big as possible XL LMB. These bass will be stocked in the pond as 14” fish. The “work” is figuring out the best way to reach those goals. Most of the management problems would be typical of pond management in general, e.g., providing the best possible habitat. What isn't typical is that balance isn't a goal. The forage base for the LMB should be self sustaining and super abundant. Supplementing with trout or perhaps other species is another matter. Mostly BG and crappie have been talked about as the forage for the trophy bass, but this is an area where the “work” has to be focused. Whatever species are chosen, they would not be managed for a reasonable density, but rather, it would be hoped that they would increase to the greatest possible density. As was stated earlier, BG were chosen as probable candidates because they spawn several times during the year and crappie because they typically produce a very large number of yoy. But other forage species certainly might be added to provide the ideal self sustaining forage base in this atypical pond. Crappie, as has been pointed out, are erratic spawners.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
turtlemtn, many here know I am a new to growing fish. I am now in my 14th month. I could not be where I am without the help and recommendations of several good experienced people here and with Todd and Walt from Overtons fishery. I have to say from day one, I understood small ponds like mine(3.5 acres) should not be stocked with crappie. I have been told there are only a few here in Texas (at this time) that are following the same path as me as per stocking rates of BG, and RES along with TFS and Tp and the Texas Legacy LMB (formally known as the Camelot Bell LMB). And as you said, my goal is to grow as many XL LMB (double digit) that I can. I have watched my BG grow to 7+" and I have seen how Tp can reproduce to the point of taking over the feeders and can be seen every where, if introduced prior to stocking your lmb fingerlings. It has been a great ride and I am looking forward to the next 14 months. My goals continue and I have learned the pond may need supplemental stocking (grow out pond here), recommended to me for supplemental stocking of Tp, as the lmb grow. I see a possible gap in the forage base during our winter months as the Tp die off. It's true the lmb become less active and feed less during this time but they still feed. So, the crappie looks interesting, I like the shape of an 8" crappie, looks much easier for a XL lmb to swallow verses an 8" BG. So for now I wait and wait for ewest article on crappie to come out in the next PBM. Be patient, esshup says. Now I wonder, about what Bill Cody said of Unpredictable Recruitment. Boy O Boy. Take the untraveled road ?? smile

Tracy

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
B
Offline
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 557
Originally Posted By: TGW1
So, the crappie looks interesting, I like the shape of an 8" crappie, looks much easier for a XL lmb to swallow verses an 8" BG. So for now I wait and wait for ewest article on crappie to come out in the next PBM. Be patient, esshup says. Now I wonder, about what Bill Cody said of Unpredictable Recruitment. Boy O Boy. Take the untraveled road ?? smile
Tracy



Tracy -

What is your depth and water temp? You may want to consider supplemental stocking of trout to feed and fatten your bass.

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
T
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
Tracy,

Considering just the question of what goes in the pond with the 14” and larger bass: One goal is the greatest concentration of the most desirable forage species. Some forage species are both prey and predator, and crappie are a good example. Crappie will eat many of the smaller fish and may be more of a negative than a positive. Without crappie, other forage species would have a better chance of surviving, and you might more successfully experiment with other species. You could add various species at various times if there weren't something in the pond that would eat them as fast as you planted them. If you stocked LMB of only one sex, you would eliminate a source of competition for the big bass, i.e., their own young. And you might be able to eliminate the need for a second pond if you didn't necessarily want a second pond.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Personally? I'd rather stock RBT in the Fall or transfer adult GHS from the forage pond to the 3.5 ac pond than take the chance on stocking Crappie.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
Originally Posted By: esshup
Personally? I'd rather stock RBT in the Fall or transfer adult GHS from the forage pond to the 3.5 ac pond than take the chance on stocking Crappie.

esshup, I hear ya!! I might have to beg, barrow or steal them from Todd. I have not priced them because I don't think they will be necessary this year due to all the forage fishies in the pond, but I may have to entertain that idea, after reading ewest article in Jan. Feb issue of POND Boss magazine. Where he wrights of reduced forage numbers on yr 3 or 4 in lmb ponds.
I knew of supplemental forage fish stocking but I don't think I really understood the why's and why not's until ewest wrote this article. I really, really want a pond with more than normal, higher numbers of XL LMB. XL LMB = 10+lb lmb. I also consider better catch rates of these fish when lower numbers of forage drops, like when the Tp die off, should make the lmb an easier catch. And I think higher numbers of XL LMB might also improve the catch rates, assuming they are not educated to fishing lures. GHS ??

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 01/17/16 10:26 AM. Reason: add on

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
If it were me I would work on removing the offspring of your initial stocking of LMB, any LMB under 8 - 9" I would consider part of the forage base.

I would stick with BG and GSH, IMO adult GSH will whack more LMB fry than the crappie will.



Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,414
Likes: 792
Tracy, GHS should have been GSH. Golden Shiners.

Just remember the amount of forage fish in the pond combined with the LMB in the pond cannot exceed the carrying capacity of the pond. That's the problem with holding an excessive number of LMB. The amount of forage fish needed in the pond to keep them growing fast pushes the carrying capacity limits, especially if (for instance) year 5 you have a drought and the pond water level drops considerably, and the pond water temp rises. Combine that with a bloom due to the extra nutrients in the reduced water volume and you have a recipe for a summer kill.

Starting year 3, I would make durn sure I had emergency aeration equipment waiting in the wings if I was pushing the carrying capacity of my pond. There isn't enough time to go buy the equipment once a problem is noticed.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
T
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
Tracy,

I don't recall seeing anything about the vegetation in your pond, or if you have or will put anything in the pond to help establish the base of the food chain, e.g., shrimp, scud, daphnia. I think I remember crawfish.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 57
esshup, I was sure Golden shiner was miss typed because I misstype most everything smile But was thinking Golden Heron something or other. hehe And plans to aerate are getting closer, maybe this coming fall. And Shorty, I added about 50 GSH from two bucket stockings left over from a couple of crappie fishing trips. They were maybe 2.5" in length but I have never seen them since then. Added them prior to stocking the lmb fingerlings but they may have turned out to be treats after all. The lmb grew pretty fast. More thought may have to go into stocking GSH. Turtlemtn, my vegetation attempt cost me $1300.00 + and I might have gotten 2 or 3 plants from that first attempt. so i trapped 4 grass shrimp I trapped but I m sure the cnbg and res took care of those, so I have been waiting to see if I can get some veggies going before I make a stronger attempt to restock the shrimp. I feed the cnbg and the Tp and the FHM's. And pond has been fertilized on more than three occasions and that kept the water to the 18" visibility and provides food to the little ones in the pond.

Tracy


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
T
Offline
T
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 368
Tracy,

That's sure a shame about the vegetation. That's an area you might want to explore more with the forum. There are many possibilities with pond plants – seemingly endless variables.

You might raise crustaceans, e.g., shrimp, scud, or daphnia, in a tank in your garage, basement, or barn this winter to transplant to your pond in the spring. I'm just learning about these critters, but in general they appear easy to raise and you could keep adding them to your pond throughout the year. Some people have said they've had good luck with some of these without vegetation in their pond. I plan to experiment with my pond. It has essentially no vegetation and very few small forage fish. There is no cover for them. I planted a few eel grass plants in late fall and have seed of a couple other species ordered, but they have to be kept damp, and the supplier is afraid they will freeze, so no seeds for a while. I also have scud ordered, and they may arrive soon.

You have a lot to think through with your project - the “work” that was previously mentioned. I'm wondering about the wisdom of using crappie. It seems there are many other species that would be easier for you and for the bass to handle.

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: TGW1
......So, as Bill Cody has said, little information on such things here, And so keeping this in mind, how would one might approach this? Would hyb crappie be a way to approach this or will they revert back to just crappie? Is it possible to select sex of a crappie, like Shorty does with RES? Any idea's here? I am thinking out loud here guys

Tracy


Also thinking out loud here....I would consider stocking a limited number of BCP (both sexes). Their spawn and successive size classes will provide additional forage for every size class of LMB. By limiting stocking to a small number, you might avoid the crappie over population issue. I would think stocking single sex or limited reproductive crappie would be kind of like stocking trout or Tilapia in that they will require supplemental stocking.

I hope Pat W. sees this thread. If I'm not mistaken, his pond is stocked with LMB, BCP, CNBG and GSH? I would like to hear if he has seen any signs of BCP over population in his 5 acre.


Bill have not seen any signs of any BCP recruitment at all from the initial spawn the first year. This is going on year 4

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by Donatello - 03/28/24 11:35 AM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/28/24 11:01 AM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Theo Gallus - 03/28/24 10:27 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by Freg - 03/28/24 09:42 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by esshup - 03/28/24 08:36 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by Justin W - 03/28/24 08:19 AM
Reducing fish biomass
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 08:18 AM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5