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I wonder if you could trim that investment down some by timing the stocking of the LMB. For example...stock a pond with forage, say BG, crawfish and GSH (or whatever is best in your area), let that forage grow and populate the pond to capacity over a couple of years (do not feed them) and then stock 1 to 2 pound female LMB ($10/lb here). Would you get some "free" pounds on those bass before you needed to think about supplementing the forage?
Edit: The $10/lb price was 2015 for 10+ inch to 2 lb LMB at the fish farm I use. All female may be higher and I don't know whether my fish farm would be willing to sort them.
Last edited by Bill D.; 01/05/16 06:34 PM. Reason: Clarification
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basslover says: ""Bluegill and shiners are cheap (at least around here).""
Cheap is a relative term. Cheap for one person may be pretty high for another on a low budget or “thin wallet”. For fun let's crunch some numbers. Just what are some costs of adult shiners or 4”-5” BG around the US? From what I know about prices around me, GS are costing around $40-$45 per pound. Some areas can get large shiners for less. With 4"-5"ers you get about 30-45 individuals per pound retail (1.00-1.30ea). I don’t really know what cheap shiners cost. But most pond owners will pay close to my estimated dollars for a gallon of large shiners. What are the bulk rates for adult shiners? I see in some areas of the country you can get shiners for $10/lb. Yey!
BG at 4"-5" are about 50 -65 cents ea up to $1.50 each retail (13-20/lb) from my local fish farms. Note Mean book reference weights were used for my calculations.
I'm factoring that the established pond has plenty of forage as it is, and supplemental feeding is happening as needed / wanted. I'm also factoring that the initial stocking ratio was 20 to 1 or higher, and that the forage were stocked first in each size range to build the forage base. So from that initial stocking forward there is a large number of forage in the pond. In other words, the pond owner designed his / her pond to grow large LMB. As such, the financial cost for the forage is the original stocking price, plus any supplemental offerings.
Let’s assume the add-stock forage is utilized primarily by biggest bass at 4 lbs per pound of added weight gain. The remaining 5-6 lbs of forage used to gain that pound was grown in the pond with the bass. Let’s assume our example trophy bass gains 1.25 lbs each year. 1.25 lbs X 4 lbs = 5 lbs add-stock forage needed for each bass. Thus 5 lb X $40 shiners = $ 200 or as low as $50 (5lbX$10shiners) extra is needed for each trophy bass when it is using 4 lbs of added forage to keep growing at a trophy class rate. On the low side if only 1.5 lbs of add stock forage/yr/bass is needed to keep our big bass fat then the cost drops to $15-60/yr for each bass to supplementally feed them to maintain the trophy growth rate. The more big bass become crowded in a pond it is very likely more add-stock forage will be needed to keep all bass fat and growing to add at least 1-2 pounds per year.
Back to my earlier comment: “growing big bass costs money and when bass are big they are very valuable” in terms of years and the amount of forage it took for that LMB or any large predator to get to the big bass status.
In theory a 7 lb bass has in total eaten 60-70 lbs of food to get to that size (8.5-10lbs fish forage/ lb of gain). If its food was all bluegill, at a cost value of an average of $6.5-$10 per pound (Ave $0.50 ea X 13 or 20BG/lb X 60 total lbs consumed/7 lbs). Considering purchased BG as food, the value that the 7 lb bass ate was near $390-$600 (BG$6.50-$10/lb X 60-70 lbs). I think my math is fairly accurate. Comments?
See my note above about the initial stocking of forage fish. Bluegills breed like rodents (at least here in GA). So if the initial stocking had bluegills in various sizes and maturity there will be the continued breeding of 2-4 times per year upping the forage count in each of the sizes. I also want to question if the idea that a LMB needs to eat 10 lbs of food to gain 1 lb still holds true? Was that number determined by what or which forage fish, in what geographic area of the USA, and what is known about the body of water (structure, cover, water quality, fishing pressure, etc.)? Which strain of LMB - northern, southern, F1, Tiger, CBLMB, etc.? Perhaps the notion of 10 lb to gain 1 lb is long in the tooth, or doesn't apply to a body of water with trout as forage, etc. Again, stressing these are all just thoughts and questions, not ruffling feathers.
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I have corresponded with our former state fisheries biologist, and he says sometimes golden shiners carry an ovarian parasite that can affect other species, so he doesn't recommend stocking adult shiners.
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ewest may have some specific information / research on this topic. I am pretty sure that the conversion efficiency of 10 lbs of forage to grow 1 pound of predator has its basis from the standard energy pyramid of numbers where energy is lost as it moves up the food chain. There are no doubt lots of information on this concept. The quality (energy amount nutrient quality) of the food eaten may skew the numbers somewhat but not a lot. I suspect the 10:1 ratio can get to 8:1 but not much more due to the physiology of biological organisms.
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I respectfully submit for consideration, that the cost numbers provided are applicable only if LMB are fed purchased forage for nearly 100% of their feeding. I agree with Basslover, a pond well stocked with good reproducing forage reduces the purchased forage requirement and dollar number per pound of predator growth significantly. IMHO purchased forage should be supplemental not primary. A pond with heavy forage density prior to stocking LMB may not even require supplemental stocking for some time, if at all, depending on whether the number of LMB stocked are at a rate to thrive or at a rate that exceeds the ponds capacity to produce abundant forage.
I agree with Bill C's point as well - IMHO If you stock a predator at a rate beyond the capacity of the pond to provide abundant forage, then be prepared to pay big bucks for the results you want.
Last edited by Bill D.; 01/06/16 08:06 AM. Reason: Clarification
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I can say from my experience. In my attempt to grow XL lmb, I needed genetics (Overtons CBLMB in my case) and then environment (pond water with micro organisms, fertilized ) along with a longer growing season. And forage (BG) which may be the only forage necessary. RES to keep the pond healthy. Whoops, forgot FHM's. As in other things in life's hobbies, I have learned there is no cheap hobby. Tennis is the cheapest hobby I have found and the scenery at a tennis court can be quite nice  I can no longer play tennis, I kind of of miss all that exercise and Scenery Nice exercised female with short tennis skirts. Like I said I miss those tennis matches. Tracy
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One cost effective idea is to move (or purchase) a few adult BG (3 females for each male) to the growout pond a month before the normal first BG spawn of the year. They should be the best conditioned BG you can get.
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Regardless of whether the forage was purchased or grown in the pond it still has value just as the value of the trophy bass that grew from that forage. One could take the forage grown in a pond and use it for trade of sell it for $$$.
As we all know one of the biggest problems of relying on in pond forage to maintain their density is that LMB are constantly increasing their need for more forage due to recruitment and increased growth which is why many waters are out of balance or not achieving goals. Growing several trophy class bass per acre in the smaller pond situation to the trophy class category (8-11lbs) and do it long term years & year, IMO will almost always require add stock forage. There are no doubt exceptions, but these exceptions are as rare as those 10-12 lb bass.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/06/16 08:16 PM.
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That is true if you can find willing buyers and sellers. My comments are based on out of pocket costs.
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True but that forage grown in the pond or the crop in the field, or animals grown on the farm all have some sort of value be it for a buyer, seller, consumer or angler. The forage grown in the pond will save a pondmeister money if he does not have to buy forage fish, a money savings to achieve a goal. True it was grown in house but my point is it still has some sort of value depending on its use. Does not farming or gardening produce value? Even if it is just for hobby and vegetables are unharvested and laid to waste the gardening was hopefully therapeutic and reduced stress to the hobbiest. It is all theoretical.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/06/16 08:17 PM.
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Interesting discussion...
A scenario....A cricket along side your pond in the grass is startled and jumps into the water. One of your BG grabs it and gets his meal for the day. Crickets sell for 10 cents at the local pet store. If you are calculating the cost of raising the BG do you add 10 cents?
Last edited by Bill D.; 01/06/16 08:52 PM. Reason: Typo
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I know the financial cost for my stocking of CNBG and RES, my supplemental stockings of trout and shiners, and my stocking of LMB.
The CNBG and RES were dirt cheap (from my perspective on price). Without looking up what I paid I _think_ I paid around $400. I have not stocked anymore RES or CNBG since my initial stocking. I have identified 8 spawns of CNBG since my initial stocking in May of 2014. I stocked adult size, medium size, and babies. I see lots of these 3 sizes when I walk the banks, and of course when I toss in food (be it pellets or live food).
The supplemental offerings of shiners has been quite limited in both quantity and frequency. Most often associated with my wanting to shoot some video of the bass going after the shiners. I have one video where a LMB has a CNBG and a shiner dropped in front of it, and the LMB bee lines for the shiner. Another video was a shiner and a trout and the LMB lunges for the trout. With my LMB in my pond the trout are the preferred forage hands down.
The supplemental offerings of trout also has been limited in both quantity and frequency. Due to cost and availability. But I also stock medium size trout, larger than the shiners I drop in.
A friend has begun breeding tilapia and raising them to various sizes before stocking them in his pond. This seems to be a great return on his investment in feeding his bass.
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I supplement feed my pond buy cast netting finger mullet from time to time. I could not imagine buying trout at the rate I have been releasing Mullet. I would go broke.
If I was to buy trout I think I would be eating them not the fish.
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Can a 6" crappie be sexed like Shorty sexes his RES? Did I miss the answer here, and is it necessary to sex them just prior to their spawn? I wonder about a single sexed crappie reducing the chances of over crowded lmb through feeding on lmb fry, along with the 6" or larger crappie feeding some of the XL lmb. What if, when sexing the crappie for single sexing and just one opposite sex was introduced? In Bill D's post, I think he ask about stocking rates being a factor, so if a single sexed had an accidental spawner, do you think the lmb might reduce the crappie fry to where they would not over crowd an lmb pond? It depends?? I am not saying I will take this path but I find it interesting when looking at reducing overcrowding of lmb or crappie. While producing forage for XL lmb and maybe forage to me or my family and friends. Maybe something to look at as the lmb grow larger and they eat the forage fish count down.
Tracy
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I supplement feed my pond buy cast netting finger mullet from time to time. I could not imagine buying trout at the rate I have been releasing Mullet. I would go broke.
If I was to buy trout I think I would be eating them not the fish. Exactly how I feel when looking at 2,000 trout per yr. lol Tracy
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Basslover, Tp produce a lot of babies for feeding the lmb, way more than BG. And are pretty cheap if stocking just a few breeders. The breeders would have to be of a size the lmb could not eat.
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Tracy I put 300 4-5" crappy in with1000 3" CNBG and the crappie spawned that first season at 4-5". With whatever number and size bucket stocked bass were added I still have a over abundance of bass with no telling how many crappie. Since most of the small bass run the banks looking for gambusias not so sure that they are in the same food zone as the crappie. And from what I have caught bass wise they range from 6-7 lbs on down to 6-8" long. Hmm
Last edited by Pat Williamson; 01/07/16 10:13 AM.
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The next PB mag will have an article on an attempt to use crappie in a small (100 acre) lake with low stocking of female only LMB. The lake also has BG , RES ,TS, GS ,CC and LCS.
One of the things noted was the failure to properly sex the few LMB stocked. Point is it is very hard to be 100% certain when stocking single sex pond fish. Mistakes are made even by trained FS.
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I supplement feed my pond buy cast netting finger mullet from time to time. I could not imagine buying trout at the rate I have been releasing Mullet. I would go broke.
If I was to buy trout I think I would be eating them not the fish. How much are trout fingerlings there? Here they are $.45 for 3" fingerling. If you buy in volume they are cheaper of course. So a dozen will run $7.20 and 100 around $50.
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From my article of single sex crappie stocking in Pond Boss magazine, Crappie both white and black are much harder to accurately sex using visual features compared to bluegill. The ONLY way for my pond or anyone else's pond that I would try to sex crappie is to either see white milt oozing from the males and also use a capillary probe for actually seeing eggs of the females. Cecil Baird has previously discussed the method for using the capillary tube probing technique. Otherwise you are guessing & assuming and almost everyone knows how reliable that is; poor at best.
Reference.
Pond Boss Magazine Mar-Apr 2013. CRAPPIE AS A BONUS, PLUS GROWTH RATES AND SEXING. Bill Cody explores single sex crappies for small ponds. How to have some big crappies without problems of reproduction, how to recognize males and females, choosing white versus blacks and numerous facts about crappie biology to help you grow big crappies.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/07/16 04:41 PM.
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Can a 6" crappie be sexed like Shorty sexes his RES? Did I miss the answer here, and is it necessary to sex them just prior to their spawn?
Tracy Even if it was possible, I still wouldn't take the chance. I might take the chance if I wasn't worried about screwing up the pond and had plenty of $$ and time to push the reset button if I did. But then, if there was plenty of $$ and time, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, now would we? That is if your goals of a trophy LMB pond is still the goal. If those goals have changed, then I retract my statement.
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January, February Pond Boss Magazine, Science & the Cutting Edge tells of the BG and lmb and TFS situations in a ponds first few years. This artical tells of how things went in a couple of studies of BG/LMB ponds. The story tells what happens to the BG/lmb populations within the first yr and what might follow in the next few years. It tells of why I was interested in asking my crappie question of "will crappie feed my lmb when pond forage is reduced". If I use their pond study numbers of Bg and lmb and adjust to my pond, it tell me, this past year my lmb have eaten somewhere around 100 to 112 lbs of bg per acre or about 350 lbs of CNBG in the last 7 to 8 months. And might reduce BG to unsustainable densities in just a few years. Maybe in 3 yrs or so. This article help me to understand my BG/lmb/TFS situation in my pond. And reinforced my desire to keep the forage levels up for growing XL LMB. Thanks Eric West and by the way, we also have the same last name but I am sure you would not claim to have any family ties here Tracy
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Thanks Tracy. No West relatives in TX so far as I know.
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Tracy I'm no expert and just trying to envision this in my own mind. But it seems to me if trophy size LMB is your goal, reducing the LMB load to let the CNBG thrive kills two birds with one stone so to speak. It reduces biomass in the pond giving more room for both more CNBG and large LMB to continue to grow. And it reduces competition among the LMB.
Going the other way by trying to increase forage production with the crappie, assuming the pond at some point reaches carrying capacity, it looks like to me it might hurt rather than help. That carrying capacity can only be so many pounds of fish. It looks like to be reducing pounds of smaller bass rather than adding another potential predator..............
Ahhhhh heck. What do I know? Mostly nothing. Just thinking out loud.
Last edited by snrub; 01/11/16 05:08 PM.
John
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snrub makes some very good points that I agree with. To grow your big bass you will need to keep bass density low and forage abundant. Your biggest challenge as I see it will be to keep the bass numbers reduced, lower than most ponds, so they always have plenty of high density EASY to catch larger sized prey. Like DD1 often says, the bass should be able to just open their mouth and fish are there to eat. Doing that will be a big challenge. LMB are always wanting to overpopulate that keeps available prey to less than optimum for best growth. Skewing the fishery to few bass/ac and high density prey will be your goal. If it were my pond, I would resort to regularly catching BG and hand feeding them to the biggest bass so they did not have to work hard for their food - eating daily, getting fat with little excercise.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/11/16 05:44 PM.
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