Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations growing extra large lmb with crappie as a forage

Another important item to consider for this topic is to strongly suppress recruitment of small bass. LMbass are notorious for overpopulating ponds. One topic that has not been heavily explored and researched is what are the best predators of small bass to keep their numbers and density low? Are pike, chain pickerel, hybrid musky or another predator the answer?

Bill, depending on the amount of cover in a pond, I think a pond owner can put a significant dent in the recruitment population of YOY LMB if the visibility is 24"-36" and they fish the shallow water in their pond with 2"-3" imitation minnows (crank baits), paddle tails or jerk baits.

Sight fish for small LMB and have no mercy tossing them on the bank. Light line, keep a low profile on the shore and spend 1/2 hr to an hour every other day for a month. I'd bet that a person can whittle down the population pretty good if they are adept at light line fishing.

I also have an abundance of YOY bass 7-9" now. The bass have gotten ahead of the spawn of CNBG. I'm sure the crappie have also taken a toll on the forage supply. Some of the bass about 1-1/2-3 lbs are skinny telling me that the forage supply is not present. The 6-10" bass are consuming most of the YOY CNBG before they get large enough to feed the larger bass. I'm leaning towards removing the small bass to give CNBG a little jump. I have no pond weeds yet, but have about an acre of flooded timber and brush that is so thick that you can't get in to fish it.(ducks love it)

My thanks goes out to everyone that posted here. My plans are still emerging here. A learning process For Shure. And lots of good information here. I really like bouncing things around. Here is where I am with this. Pond heavily stocked with CNBG and RES. Pond had at least thousand Tp that are now dying.(took pressure off the cnbg and res) Tp produce a lot of forage for the feeding the lmb Pond also has some crawfish up to 5". Thread fin shad(10,000) originally but have no idea how many are there today. Pond forage reduced due to Tp die off, leaving reduced forage till April. Suggested solution is RBT. There is no dought, where RBT and LMB come together the lmb grow larger. But, as Al pointed out RBT are not cheap and have to be replaced yearly, Tp are replaced yearly also but they reproduce forage like nothing else can. I would recommend Tp to all who can have them. Going back to the trout, if a 3.5 acre pond can hold 80 to 100 XL LMB(based on Basslovers post) how many trout would be necessary for building weight on lmb? Lets say XL lmb eats 2 per week. Per fish for 20 weeks that would be 2,000 trout per year. Life span of a lmb from 6lbs to 15lbs Whoa!! Not Cheap!! Crappie are looking better as I speak. And esshup suggest culling lmb in a clear pond, but in a fertilized pond, our site fishing is reduced to 18" visibility, making site fishing not so easy. In my plans of reducing male lmb, I have come to realize, sight fishing for males only, will not be as easy as I had originally planned. Crappie may be looking better for reducing lmb yoy. Al, I think you are suggesting, where I am at for now. Watch and see for the next few yr's. Thanks for bouncing things around here guys.

Tracy

Much good advice and info in this thread.

One aspect to consider is the yearly life cycle of LMB in all of the US except possibly deep south coastal TX/LA and Fla.

A concern raised is that the tilapia die off in winter with the assumption that the LMB will be forage short. However keep in mind that with cold water temps the LMB reduce considerably their food intake. They don't have the metabolism or need for as much to eat by the time the tilapia die off. In addition the LMB have gorged (just before their metabolism decreases)on dying tilapia (surge/binge feeding just before winter water temps is common in LMB). So I would not worry about being forage short in winter under the conditions noted. If there was a doubt then RT or hothouse tilapia would be better than Crappie. In addition crappie because they are more active in cooler water than LMB they are not a good substitute for winter feeding of LMB (crappie are more active than the LMB in cool water and thus able to escape LMB predation better). Another substitute is pelleted feeding of large pellets for LMB.

We are talking LMB biology/bioenergetics ( food - energy used = growth). Its not just food but also the amount of energy used to catch/consume the food that results in growth or weight loss if a negative balance. That leads to an aspect of the California LMB growth noted that most don't know about. Its not just the feeding of RT in the CA lakes that gives the large growth. Its the biological aspect as well. RT need a certain O2 level which is higher than LMB an also a temp range cooler than LMB. The RT seek the best O2/temp zone to occupy. In the CA lakes the lakes stratify and that zone of comfort for the RT gets small while the LMB are not constrained by the factors as they have higher tolerance. In essence the LMB trap the RT in that zone and gorge on them - lots of high energy food in with little energy used equals ample nutrients for LMB growth.

Tracy, good for you. You have posted before about a brood pond, and B Cody referenced that as well on this thread. IMO, that's the best option, and remember, you can growout anything that fits your particular scenario at any given time. If you need more CNBG, grow them out to the size you're targeting. If you want TSF or anything else, grow them out the same way.

B Cody also referred Bruce Condello's LMB in his post. I've been lucky enough to witness his results IRL, and his ability to make XL LMB "location friendly" for lack of a better term. I won't go into his particular methods, because that's his option, but I tried what I learned in NE, and it sure helps keep XL LMB resident to a particular area. Trout could benefit those larger resident LMB, and that's the size class you're targeting for extra calories anyway.

On a pond your size, I think trout would really benefit you in a year or two. At a 10 to 1 conversion rate, RBT would cost $100 to add one pound to a LMB. If your LMB are close to your target weight, then that dollar amount is really cheap IMO. If you're feeding all your LMB, then that number could really get expensive, and spread the benefits of trout to LMB that may not make the final cut anyway.

IMO, you've done everything correctly so far, so I would stay the course until your particular situation changes, or your LMB are large enough to specifically target for increased forage. At that point, feed them until they waddle in the water. I bet that point gets here pretty quickly for you.

Just my 2 cents.

With a brood pond much is doable. I wonder if anyone has purchased a bunch of RT yoy and put them in a brood pond to be grownout and used as supplemental LMB forage? A plus would be fly fishing for them as they reach 10 inches. You would need good water quality.

With stocking RBT, remember that you don't have to stock RBT to feed all the LMB in the pond, just the ones that you want to grow to trophy status. i.e. if you have 10# LMB that you want to get larger, don't stock 4" RBT, stock 10"-12" RBT.

I like the brood pond idea. I think it would help you all year long.

Talk to Todd and see if he can get you some 4"-6" RBT. They will be less expensive than larger ones. Stock them in the brood pond as soon as temps allow in the fall, and feed 'em as much as they will eat daily. They will most likely double in size in a few months (or sooner), THEN stock them in the big pond.

In my pond, I had 2# RBT go to 6#-7# in 8 months, and that was only feeding slightly less than 50# of food per month to all the fish in the pond. I had stocked 100# of RBT that year in the pond.

Eric, I've been researching this very thing for next winter. This whole RBT as seasonal LMB forage deal intrigues me. There appears to be no downside other than money, and the upside could be tremendous. I think it's worth the risk.

Growing numerous big bass for your pleasure is not a cheap endeavor because you are maintaining an unbalanced community and basically "pushing" against the normal, natural progression for the fishery i.e. a higher than normal number of large predators per acre, maintaining excessive forage, and reducing unwanted competition (subpar bass). Each trophy bass is highly valuable due to the time and inputs necessary to get to a large bass status, and especially true the bigger the bass gets. To accomplish this with regularity, dependably, and at high densities per acre expect to spend quite a bite of money in several departments. This is why examples of this success are few and are rarities, and without constant vigilance the fishery declines.

I hear you Bill ! There is a lot of money and effort chasing monster LMB.

Using some 3"-4" with 4"-6" trout as forage pond trout will be cheaper, and feasible. One should be able to raise them to double or triple their size in 10 weeks providing a variety of larger trout for several size classes of big bass.

If you try the crappie and they are actively recruiting juvenile crappie or even bluegill, you may have to figure out how to harvest significant numbers of them (angling-seining-trapping) to supplementally feed the big bass with vulnerable, in pond grown, manually stressed, forage fish. Manually capture, stress selected individuals released into the pond as easy capture food items. A big bass may not routinely make the effort to catch healthy 7"-8" crappie but would aggressively eat a wounded (stressed, vulnerable) larger fish. We see this behavior when the tilapia are dying, stressed from cold temperatures. Numerous larger YOY tilapia remain uneaten until the cold temps stress them and making them easy catch meals. As an example, I had a 15" walleye die from choking this fall after capturing a 5" cold stressed tilapia that was not eaten during warmer water temps.

Ditto
Put in my BCP on 4-12-13 at 3.5" in a 3AC pond and do not believe they have had a successful spawn yet. No signal digit length Crappie have been caught in along time. I do not even have a LMB in the pond. Other fish were stocked in 2012 before the BCP.
1. I do however have a fine crop of CC raising and eating everything in site.
2. The CNBG are a little over populated, but keep the kiddies are happy catching them and I have a way to use them.
3. The Gams have survived very well without small LMB there to eat them up in the shallows.

Understand I have designed my pond so I can drain and restart with very little issue. At present the BCP & CC are fat. The Gams are plentiful. The original CNBG are very nice and the YOY CNBG are over populated at current. I will seine a lot of the YOY CNBG out in the next couple months and deliver to the LMB heavy pond for a prespawn snack attack.

How do you "stress" the fish before release? Tail or fin clip?

Absolutely true, and many thanks to you, Scott, and Eric for being active on this forage/XL LMB thread.

I use 2 methods for stressing prey for easy catch here. It makes it easier for healthy fish released simultaneously to survive.

1. In cooler weather I simply sling the fish out with a crab dip net to stun them when they hit the water for a short instant stress / shock.

2. In warm weather I will use water temp cooling to put them in a slower moving situation before releasing them. Makes them a lot easier for the LMB to catch as the multiple temp changes basically shocked the Prey.

FYI

Population Dynamics of White Crappie Occurring in a Small Georgia Impoundment Stocked with Female-only Largemouth Bass
Authors
Timothy F. Bonvechio
Brandon W. Baker
Bryant R. Bowen

Year

Journal of the Southeastern Associated Fish and Wildlife Agencies 2:93–100

Pages
93 - 100
Abstract
Crappies (Pomoxis spp.) are popular sportfish, but can be difficult to manage due to erratic recruitment and variable growth. In this study, we document the population dynamics of a white crappie (P. annularis) population in a small impoundment characterized by low predator density and abundant populations of several forage species. White crappies (n=301) were collected by electrofishing in October 2012. Relative abundance as indexed by electrofishing catch per unit effort of crappie was high (103.3 fish h-1 ± 18.7 SD). A sub-sample was aged (n = 153) and growth was described by a von Bertalanffy growth curve as total length (TL) = 379.6 (1-e -0.341[age + 0.769]). Growth was considered medium to fast with crappie reaching 254 mm TL in 2.5 yrs. Mean TL of age-2 crappie was 231 mm TL, but lengths ranged from 85 to 365 mm TL. The age distribution revealed that age-2 fish comprised 93% of the population and several year-classes were completely absent from the age distribution. Aging revealed that both stunting and rapid growth were apparent in the same year-class. Crappie populations stocked in a female-only bass fishery can exhibit a high dispersion of lengths within age- classes, which can be a challenge to characterize with traditional population dynamic assessment tools. Future research and management efforts in this small impoundment should be allocated towards a creel survey that assesses angler exploitation and age demographics of the catch, as well as dietary preferences of the white crappie.

Thanks again guys, a pond for growing XL lmb is a money disposal project for sure. Requires outside the norm. Normal is Boring

Tracy

Tracy -

I am a believer in that you can grow XL LMB cheaply. Bluegill and shiners are cheap (at least around here). And bluegill are the rodents of the water world as far as I'm concerned - they live to breed, breed again, and breed some more. So if you establish a crapton of bluegills for your LMB that is an excellent source for growth. I don't know about shiner breeding, I only know how affordable they are to purchase, acclimate, and set free to be munched upon by the LMB.


The pond that I referred to earlier those LMBs were fed shiners. Morning, noon and evening. Shiners came out the pipe from the bait shop to the pond. The LMBs knew that sound of the water coming through the pipe and they would make a beeline right for that. And then the water would boil as the bass just gulped them down as they floated on the surface. You couldn't keep your lines baited fast enough. Three rods all with dead shiners on them and the lines tight going out with 5 lb and up bass. My personal best of almost 9 lbs was caught on a dead shiner I slapped on a hook and dropped 3 feet from shore.


But here is something to consider - if your forage base is such that the LMBs are hogs, the catch-ability ratio may be low(er). If the bass can eat that forage anytime they want, what is their incentive to hit anything else? The hog pen I have referenced - those bass rarely hit anything other than a live or dead shiner. I would toss in lure after lure into the boil and nothing. I could snag a bass but not hook one. But put a shiner on and bam within seconds there's a bass.

So that may be something to consider?

basslover says: ""Bluegill and shiners are cheap (at least around here).""

Cheap is a relative term. Cheap for one person may be pretty high for another on a low budget or 'thin wallet'. For fun let's crunch some numbers. Just what are some costs of adult shiners or 4"-5" BG around the US? From what I know about prices around me, GS are costing around $40-$45 per pound. Some areas can get large shiners for less. With 4"-5"ers you get about 30-45 individuals per pound retail (1.00-1.30ea). I don't really know what cheap shiners cost. But most pond owners will pay close to my estimated dollars for a gallon of large shiners. What are the bulk rates for adult shiners? I see in some areas of the country you can get shiners for $10/lb. Yey!
BG at 4"-5" are about 50 -65 cents ea up to $1.50 each retail (13-20/lb) from my local fish farms. Note Mean book reference weights were used for my calculations.

Let's assume the add-stock forage is utilized primarily by biggest bass at 4 lbs per pound of added weight gain. The remaining 5-6 lbs of forage used to gain that pound was grown in the pond with the bass. Let's assume our example trophy bass gains 1.25 lbs each year. 1.25 lbs X 4 lbs = 5 lbs add-stock forage needed for each bass. Thus 5 lb X $40 shiners = $ 200 or as low as $50 (5lbX$10shiners) extra is needed for each trophy bass when it is using 4 lbs of added forage to keep growing at a trophy class rate. On the low side if only 1.5 lbs of add stock forage/yr/bass is needed to keep our big bass fat then the cost drops to $15-60/yr for each bass to supplementally feed them to maintain the trophy growth rate. The more big bass become crowded in a pond it is very likely more add-stock forage will be needed to keep all bass fat and growing to add at least 1-2 pounds per year.

Back to my earlier comment: "growing big bass costs money and when bass are big they are very valuable" in terms of years and the amount of forage it took for that LMB or any large predator to get to the big bass status.

In theory a 7 lb bass has in total eaten 60-70 lbs of food to get to that size (8.5-10lbs fish forage/ lb of gain). If its food was all bluegill, at a cost value of an average of $6.5-$10 per pound (Ave $0.50 ea X 13 or 20BG/lb X 60 total lbs consumed/7 lbs). Considering purchased BG as food, the value that the 7 lb bass ate was near $390-$600 (BG$6.50-$10/lb X 60-70 lbs). I think my math is fairly accurate. Comments?

My only comment is by looking at those figures (and I think they are pretty accurate except Shiners are closer to $10-$15 per pound here) is that having a forage pond where you can grow and move 100-500 (or more) pounds of forage fish to the big pond per year looks more cost effective than before.

Now think about what Bill said about the cost of food per LMB. Multiply that by the number of trophy LMB in the pond and what numbers do you come up with?

Then add in the other "not trophy" LMB in the pond that also need forage food and the numbers are pretty staggering.

I my analysis the numbers look much better if you can structure the stockings to the growout pond as small fish and let them grow and then move. Its about the harnessing of the productivity of the growout pond. Also have to factor in pelleted feeding costs if applicable.

Next question is - what is the maximum size that we can grow LMbass using mainly a pellet diet of large 0.5"-1" pellets after the bass reach 16"-17"? Any good data on this topic?????.

Bill, my only data is LMB eating AM600. 18 3/4" and right at 6 pounds. I've seen her in the pond, but haven't caught her since. That fish was caught in 2014.

They turn their noses up at AM LMB pellets.

I imagine she's thinned down some as I've been feeding Optimal this past year and the larger LMB don't like the small pellet size.

Add on: If we can buy 4"-5" BG at $0.50 ea at 13 per pound then 0.50X13 = $6.50 X 60 to 70 lbs consumed the cost is $390.00 to $455.00 for a 7 lb bass. This does not account for the time it took that bass to reach 7lbs. What is several years of time worth?. Now we know that when a fish kill happens in a pond with big bass the owner feels "ill" or sad.